Lethality: Pre-buff vs Post-buff

Ahristocats·Feb 3, 2017·7 votes·1,658 views

lvl:pre-buff(%) post-buff(%)

1 43.3 / 62.2 2 46.6 / 64.4 3 50 / 66.6 4 53.3 / 68.8 5 56.6 / 71.1 6 60 / 73.3 7 63.3 / 75.5 8 66.6 / 77.7 9 70 / 80 10 73.3 / 82.2 11 76.6 / 84.4 12 80 / 86.6 13 83.3 / 88.8 14 86.6 / 91.1 15 90 / 93.3 16 93.3 / 95.5 17 96.6 / 97.7 18 100 / 100

you get your first armor pen item at nearly level 7 or 8 which means that lethality gained nearly 12% in early game, and nearly 5% in mid game (~~level 12)

are the 2 items that i see the most, and combined they give +35 lethality congratulation! you gained at best 5 armor pen when you have those 2 items, assuming that you're not ahead and have those 2 around level 10 or 11

if you add this item, then it's +50, and you gained nearly +6 armor pen assuming that you have those 3 items quickly because else it's nearly +2.5 armor pen

stop the bandwagon now

29 Comments

PennsFeb 3, 20173 votes

Not a "bandwagon" when Kha, Riven, Talon, even Jayce/Quinn,... abuse and stomp with lethality items now tho

AhristocatsFeb 3, 20174 votes

quinn was already top tier before lethality buff, kha and jayce were beyond broken now they deserve nerfs themselves

riven and talon rofl

PennsFeb 3, 20174 votes

Guess u didnt see Riven or Talon lately xd

AhristocatsFeb 3, 20173 votes

Because talon has delayed damage making it easy to stop him, unless you're alone, his mobility is also limited the only purpose of this champ is to gank in early game

of course i never see riven, she's only played by her mains in d1

PennsFeb 3, 20174 votes

Well.. then... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES5_5zwblsk ?

Best princess EUFeb 3, 20172 votes

you want to nerf a champion because one dude is good at playing this champion?

AhristocatsFeb 3, 20173 votes

what did you not understand when i said she's only played by her mains? because last time i checked we do not balance a game around few people playing the champion but on EVERY players

JbelsFeb 3, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7FjV5A6V,comment-id=000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-02-03T15:14:05.793+0000)

what did you not understand when i said she's only played by her mains? because last time i checked we do not balance a game around few people playing the champion but on EVERY players

Aurelion Sol

PennsFeb 3, 20173 votes

Then what was that "rofl" about? What does "only played by mains" or "one dude being good at a champ" have to do with lethality? lol

JbelsFeb 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Guess u didnt see Riven or Talon lately xd

Riven and Talon have always been a pain in the dick. When you know how to use them

JefftiffyFeb 3, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7FjV5A6V,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-02-03T14:58:33.572+0000)

quinn was already top tier before lethality buff, kha and jayce were beyond broken now they deserve nerfs themselves

riven and talon rofl

Except you do realize that low numbers have a huge effect on low amounts of armor. 5-8 armor pen is the difference between Draven hitting for you for 250 with an axe and 300+. And as a squishy damage dealer you cannot invest in defense that early to punish it creating a snowball effect if they ever get ahead. And if you build defense you just dig yourself into a deeper hole.

AhristocatsFeb 3, 20172 votes

{quoted}

5-8 armor pen is the difference between Draven hitting for you for 250 with an axe and 300+.

No, and even if it was true crit makes draven going from 250 to 700

JefftiffyFeb 3, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7FjV5A6V,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2017-02-03T18:53:04.723+0000)

No, and even if it was true crit makes draven going from 250 to 700

On what math. 250x2.5=625. That's asuming Draven has IE. But most Dravens rush item 3142 for the lethality then item 3031 . And even then his Q damage can't be amped by crits. So assuming he crits on that attack he's probably going to hit about 500-550.

dunder killFeb 3, 20172 votes

And + 2 armor pen on their first item totally is what is setting them over the edge. Yeah sure. Come on dude. This 'buffed' lethality is still straight up nerfed flat armor pen

Dominick DestineFeb 3, 20173 votes

This guy has a point.... except he failed to consider runes and masteries... you can easily get 20-30 lethality from that alone.

Argument debunked, dismissed.

Big LincolnFeb 3, 20173 votes

you start out with 33 if you take full lethal runes and precision mastery

AhristocatsFeb 3, 20174 votes

and have a worse early game due to no ad runes?

sounds fair to me

Dominick DestineFeb 3, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7FjV5A6V,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2017-02-03T18:35:25.297+0000)

and have a worse early game due to no ad runes?

sounds fair to me

You don't need to have 100% lethality, you can start with 15-20 without having to sacrifice much.

Point being, you failed to consider this, your argument is bad.

AhristocatsFeb 3, 20174 votes

how is my argument bad? Even before lethality ARMOR PEN RUNES were known to be bad in early game and better in mid game

buffing lethality % won't make suddenly armor pen runes broken from level 1 to 7, it will make them better in mid game which is what the buff is doing, it will make them better in early game since it gives more armor pen but armor pen runes will always be inferior to ad runes in early game thus the buff doesn't affect them a lot in early levels

Dominick DestineFeb 3, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7FjV5A6V,comment-id=0003000100000000,timestamp=2017-02-03T18:46:47.460+0000)

how is my argument bad?

You failed to consider that Lethality is available much sooner than you point out and can be stacked for fairly significant differences in the results you present.

This isn't complicated.

AhristocatsFeb 3, 20173 votes

i just told you above that it is avaible sooner but that it doesn't matter because AD is better than lethality in early game

better mid game for a worse early game

that is the trade for lethality runes

TusutakiFeb 3, 20173 votes

The buffed Lethality is now on par with armor pen runes in the early and mid game. 24 lethal and 8.5 from mastery gives you 33 rounding up. That is 18 armor pen at level 1. Old armor pen runes gives you 19 armor pen and 3 from old Precision. 22 at level one.

Lets assume you're level 8 and bought Ghost Blade. At level 8 you have 77.7% of your total lethality. Your total would be around 55.

W/Ghostblade Old armor pen = 42 Current Lethality = 42.7

You're already matching the old armor pen and gaining so much more through other items as you continue to scale with current lethality.

Lets even assume you're level 4 with the same runes and masteries but with Dirk. 44 Lethal total.

W/Dirk Old armor pen = 32 Current Lethality = 30

The difference of the old armor pen and new is very minor in the early game but got a giant buff in the mid to late game. Allowing you to essentially deal true damage to any carries. If you want some fun, play Garen with the said lethal runes and mastery and rush Ghostblade and Blackcleaver. Anybody with less than 127 armor will be dealt true damage. You can then build tank afterwards.

The only reason AD runes would be chosen at all right now would be because of easier time for farming. That's practically it.

WoonStruckFeb 3, 20171 votes

You can get 74 total Lethality from runes+items.

8.5 from masteries means 82.5 total.

That means true damage vs the large majority of squishies with no bonus armor.

Throw in Black Cleaver at some point for 30% CDR (40 w/ ionian), and you're looking at taking a 150 armor target down to ~25 armor.

Or use LW item instead. ~30 armor.

AMYS GRAVEFeb 3, 20173 votes

Small amounts of armor pen have huge effects on low armor targets (like in the early game) especially when applied by multiple abilities/autos.

WinTheWarOnPantsFeb 3, 20172 votes

ok am a missing something or are you just really bad at math? if you have 35 lethality then even at lvl 1 you get 62%. 62% of 35 = 21.77 armor pen.... not 5 wtf...? if you take full lethality runes and masteries you get around 33 lethality at lvl 1. 62% of that = 20.5 armor pen which is pretty damn close the the average champion base armor. this means that you're essentially dealing TRUE DMG to most of the champs in the game. some champs like Orianna and Lux will have negative armor. This means that they will take bonus dmg on top of true dmg.

JbelsFeb 3, 20171 votes

If you actually do the math on it, when you start with 40%, you gain 3.3% per level (3.3 x 18 = 59.4. A little off, but rounding it upwards will give you the 60% to add to 40 to get 100%)

When you start with 60%, you get 2.2% of it back per level (2.2% x 18 = 39.6. Again, very tiny amount to be off by, but the math is sound)

Let's compare at levels 6, 11, and 16.

40%: 40% + (3.3 x 6) = 59.8% effectiveness. If you had 20 Lethality, you would be getting 11.96 Armor pen out of it. 60%: 60% + (2.2 x 6) = 73.2% effectiveness. With 20 Lethality, that's 14.64 Armor Pen. A whopping difference of 2.68 Armor Pen.

40% + (3.3 x 11) = 76.3%, or 15.26 out of your 20 Lethality 60% + (2.2 x 11) = 84.2%, or 16.84 out of 20 Lethality.

40%: 40% + (3.3 x 16) = 92.8%, or 18.56 out of 20 Lethality 60%: 60% + (2.2 x 16) = 95.2%, or 19.04 out of 20 Lethality

Literally just did the math on this a little bit ago. The gains are really not that huge. Lethality was always okay