Riot, please rework Elise into an Assassin

v good pupper··44 votes·4,172 views

Currently Elise functions as an early assassin who builds a bit of magic penetration and then straight tank more often than not. This is due to her low ratios and health scaling Q. As well, her Spider Form W and Elise's E are worth looking at. Elise's kit is that of an assassin's, not that of a front line tank.

Elise's Q is problematic for her as an assassin. Health scaling means great damage for Elise, but the low scaling and lack of need to build damage due to that means Elise players often opt to build magic penetration and then survivability instead; as building AP would have little effect. This makes Elise strong early and fall off as the game goes on and doesn't allow Elise to build into an assassin.

Elise's Spider Form W is very odd for her as an assassin. Its purpose is to aid in clearing jungle, but it feels very strange on her kit otherwise and it's often not used outside of jungle other than for objectives. Admittedly, building AP and utilizing the AP scaling on her Spider Form auto attacks this does fit her kit better; as this allows it to fill the gap between Q bursts. As an AP assassin this works in part with her kit, but tends to feel very unfitting with her burst combo.

Elise's kit best fitting an assassin is most seen in Elise's E and her spiderlings. She has a long range single target stun, like Xerath or Syndra do, and her Rappel allows her to become untargetable and either stay that way for about 2 seconds, or land on an enemy unit. This kind of long range engage and disengage, and ability to become invulnerable to mitigate damage and have high conditional mobility are often seen on burst champs, not tanks. Her spideringlings do help her clear and sustain in jungle; but as an assassin Elise can very cleverly use them to tank aggro and skill shots. They're best used as a skilled assassin's damage mitigation. These abilities do not best belong on a front line tank or most help a front line tank. They're most fitting on an assassin.

I do understand that aspects of these abilities are all helpful for Elise as a jungler and that she could be a very effective jungle assassin throughout the game. However, the lack of damage scaling is what keeps this from being more effective currently than becoming a tank. Becoming a tank doesn't best fit Elise in theme, fantasy, or kit.


TL;DR: Riot, please rework Elise so that she can actually play like an assassin or even a mage assassin for more than the first ten minutes of the game. She has an excellent theme, fantasy, and kit to fit being an assassin. Some players have been asking for Elise buffs and this could be a more fruitful direction than simply adding to her numbers and waiting for her to be imbalancing again.

39 Comments

AHeroNamedHawke9 votes

You have a point

Her kit is in a spot where she can either assassinate carries with Haunting Guise + Sunfire Cape or she's useless

B1naryB0t6 votes

So what you're saying is that she's useless.

Teridax685 votes

Currently, yes, she's not really that good at anything. The issue with her kit is that it's seriously overloaded: she has access to practically everything (mobility, burst, DPS, sustain, hard CC, anti-tank spells, natural tankiness via her spiders), and can do so much that balancing her means either making her good enough to just be better overall and more versatile than competing champions, or worse at everything than anyone else. She's currently in the latter spot, and if she wants to have better scaling and assassination potential, she needs to have a lot of her abilities change.

Orangesilk7 votes

No, wait, you either take away some iconic things about her, like her stun and her rappel, or you end up with a massively overpowered assassin who can even make Zed and Fizz cry, she would have: Ranged poke, Hard CC, a gapcloser which is also intargetability, if you give those tools to someone with assassination potential you end up creating a massively overpowered champ (pre-nerfs elise).

LankPants12 votes

All you need to do is bind her ability to assassinate to her ability to poke. Since she's a spider I think that a good way to do this would be to rework her q in to a spamy, stacking, skillshot DOT, capping at about 5 stacks and make her spider form q capable of destroying people with 4-5 stacks on them. This way she can't just dive in and insta-kill you regardless of how fed she is, and honestly doesn't it seem weird for a neuro-toxin to deal damage instantly instead of applying a poison?

Orangesilk2 votes

So basically the same game pattern as Nidalee but with assassination potential?, I'm not very excited about this.

Skia Asteri6 votes

So basically the same game pattern as Nidalee but with assassination potential?, I'm not very excited about this.

Nidalee does not have assassination potential?

LittleBlast1 votes

What are you talking about... ap nid qrweq allows for instant killing a squishy if you have sheen/lichbane, even if it wasnt a long range spear.

LankPants1 votes

Elise is always going to be a bit like Nid, as it stands they are already both shapeshifters who use their human form for poke and their non-human form for assassination, they also both already have an execute on their non-human form.

v good pupper5 votes

All you need to do is bind her ability to assassinate to her ability to poke. Since she's a spider I think that a good way to do this would be to rework her q in to a spamy, stacking, skillshot DOT, capping at about 5 stacks and make her spider form q capable of destroying people with 4-5 stacks on them. This way she can't just dive in and insta-kill you regardless of how fed she is, and honestly doesn't it seem weird for a neuro-toxin to deal damage instantly instead of applying a poison?

I think this is actually a really good idea and ties very well to her thematically as a venomous spider!

Cale0175 votes

I agree with everything you said here about her kit being odd for an assassin, but oddly enough I'm a bit caught between whether I want to agree that she needs to be redone. When I first picked up Elise, after quite a bit of urging from my friends and refusal on my part (bit arachnophobic, dumb reason I know) I thought she was clunky and didn't handle well. After a few more matches I picked up my first double with her and it all sort of went from there. Before long I was outjuking a Leblanc. The more I've played Elise, the more comfortable I've felt, until her odd way of moving felt pretty natural. And in fact, I improved to the point where more often than not I go positive with her.

I've never had an issue playing her as an assassin, but I just don't see her as a burst assassin. She's kind of like a Nocturne (one of my mains) where they're still an assassin, but they have to jump on you and stay on you for a bit instead of just blowing you up in one go like an Akali or a Diana. In that respect she does well, as her stun lets you get your Q>W in human form off before switching to spider form and getting close with your E, hitting W to whittle away most of their health and Q to secure the kill.

She's very much a hunter, and has to position herself just so and use her abilities just right to outmaneuver and outdamage her prey.

Perhaps this is just how I've learned to do well with her though. I do agree that she ends up falling off as an assassin towards the late game when teamfights get more common and it's harder to take down a single target, though, and I feel like that should be addressed. Perhaps increasing the base damage on her human form W or both of her Qs? Let her keep the tank penetration build, which is refreshing to see on an assassin instead of a mindset of "MOAR AP PL0X". I like the idea of an assassin who also serves as a tank when necessary for her team, but right now she just ends up more tank than assassin.

EvilRabbitt1 votes

I kinda said this XD. Shoulda just read yours...idk how to delete my post.

2pudge1cup3 votes

Although thematically it makes sense... believe me, jungling assassins always get whined about then inevitably nerfed hardcore.

If anything riot should try to keep her build flexibility in any changes.

Veraska2 votes

agreed theres no reason a spider shouldn't be actually be squishy. elise just makes more sense thematically as an assassin

The Mormonator2 votes

I like her how she is, but I guess that's just me :[

Lights And Magic2 votes

Because this game needs more assassins

LankPants2 votes

IMO she should work like a poke based mage in human form with skillshot reliance and she should be rewarded for landing her poke with a stronger assassination when she decides to all in someone, she also needs bonus armour and MR in her spider form, atm she can't build anything other than tank because if he tries she just explodes, I think rather than a flat amount she should have bonus armour and MR based off her AP in her spider form to encourage her to build AP and not just tank stats.

EvilRabbitt1 votes

Thats her W in human form. Use to AoE poke since its kinda like a heat seeking missile.

Saianna2 votes

Be careful what you wish for. After car accident with nerf hammer passangers Evelynn and Rango couldn't continue their assassin career.

Dazaruk2 votes

I just want her to have a different passive than the one currently. It's basically saying "when you change forms you get this". Passives are usually dynamic or help the champ in question achieve something when played right. Maybe it's due to having 6 abilities but having a passive the focuses on what Riot wants her to be would be nice. Resistance = tanky Increased damage per = assassin AP or mana regen related = mage

Séraphiel 1 votes

according to what people are building her now, i think the best direction to a rework is the tanky/utility route otherwise the feel of the champ will be so different besides some key aspects of her would make her a "toxic" type of assasin.

so even if thematically she should be an assasin i don't think that's the best direction for her rework (which will happen eventually).

EvilRabbitt1 votes

From my very little experience (plan to practice her more), I have seen her as a AP-split-pusher. The W and rank 3 ult gives her so much tower pushing potential, that its actually ridiculous. Her ratios may be low, but its for a reason. Anywho, doing assassin build math below (not advised).

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Elise

+3% per 100 AP on her Q (both forms), but capped on monsters. Lets say she goes into the standard 700 ap build of an assassin, thats 21% hp + the 8% base.

Now the rotations:

Human form- Throw W, follow with E, then Q and they will all hit about the same time. Toss into spider form and hit W the instant you pop in, gives you an auto and each of your spiders an auto- then pop your Q one more time.

Rough damage without mitigation?

Neurotoxin= 29% max hp as magic damage Volatile Spiderling= 835 magic damage Cocoon= 0 Skittering frenzy= (assuming you have all 5 spiderlings) 800 magic damage AND about 60 auto attack damage from you Venomous Bite= 29% missing hp as magic damage

Usually, thats enough to bring a squishy down. A tank should be reeling as well right now.

v good pupper1 votes

Usually, thats enough to bring a squishy down. A tank should be reeling as well right now.

I can definitely agree with you on this. I've been playing her as an AP assassin recently and it's worked reasonably well.

Stupafly1 votes

maybe im a minority, but I like elise. and I like her kit and how it works.

plz don't pull a karma on elise, id rather her just get buffed a tad

FluxBound1 votes

Elise is best played as a super AD split pusher like AD Nunu, Xin Zhao or Warwick. Towers are decimated in your presence

LittleBlast1 votes

I like to play her as an ap splitpusher, because then you and your spiders just chunk towers so hard

FluxBound1 votes

Yeah, I've tried both but often stick with AD. Elise top is amazing , as you can q and get no minion aggro. If your opponent is aggressive then just use human form to poke all day with autos

FluxBound1 votes

So does her spiders only attack with AP? also, what do you build/rush, when I tried I got lich bane and nashor's tooth

LittleBlast1 votes

The spiders dmg is all ap scaling. I go a heavy ap cdr build, nor ally with chalice lichbane nashors, heavy splitting items.

Puaru1 votes

Towers shouldn't auto acquire her spiders imo.

Gorzke1 votes

Dom't know what are you speaking about. DFG + E Q W + R Q and nothing survives.

Fury and Emperor1 votes

Elise's kit is that of an assassin's, not that of a front line tank.

Spider tank:

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/megalith_spider_tank_5354.jpg

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

Question, how would her transformations work in this context. I can see her spider form being an assassin, but how would her human form work?

v good pupper2 votes

Question, how would her transformations work in this context. I can see her spider form being an assassin, but how would her human form work?

It might make the most sense for her human form to act similarly to a mage; whittling the opponent down and wave clearing.

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

What would be her drawback? The low mobility? Her spider form would be the burst/mobile champ right?

v good pupper2 votes

What would be her drawback? The low mobility? Her spider form would be the burst/mobile champ right?

I suppose the same as now, mid range human form needing to get a pick with E to really do much, then spider form being melee and single target.

TecToNiiC1 votes

I would love to see her as an assassin. Some of the most fun i had playing her was before the last round of nerfs where i could build spectral wraith and play as an ap pick assassin.

Zetra131 votes

Okay, the first part of my suggestion MAY seem to only tick people off, but plz hear me out. Off the bat, lower her health slightly. Why do this? Her Q in human form now gives her health when she uses the Q in her spider form by applying a buff 'Liquidated Prey'. Spiders use their poison to liquify their food's insides, and thus in human form she is melting the insides so her spider form can eat. The reason for this is sustain in the jungle but a stronger identity for what she actually is. In human form, her E may have to have a longer CD to help with the bonus damage, or maybe even shorter effect. We have to compensate her base powers for this idea to work. Her W....god her W lol. On human, it works as a walking mine that either zones you 100% or out right hurts you. This skill should have the spider land at the location then walk, but having limited health that ranged champs can kill (melee champs either use skills or get zoned, so it still has strong uses). Otherwise, her W is the same, walking bomb. In spider form, the attack speed is kinda out of place in battle. So i propose it increases movement speed by a flat amount then attack speed BASED ON SPIDERLINGS you have. This will make it important to widdle them down as a human then turn spider to finish them. Her E is problematic. While the stun in human form only has some problems (may need to lower duration or increase CD etc) her Rapple is kinda too much....all around. I would even say it's why she is in her hell. Instead of 2 sec, make it last only 1. If she springs to an enemy, cool. If not, then she just comes back down. TO MAKE THIS BETTER, the animation now lets her rapple to the foe as soon as you use the skill and they are in effect. So even mid animation for the start up, you can dedicate to a target and, even if they sprint/flash, you rapple to their location once the animation going up is done. This also encourages fast assassin plays. Her weakness is escape potential (her hard CC is her only chance)

BREAK DOWN OF CHANGES Q= (human) Deals Magic damage and bonus damage on higher health % (% is initially weaker but ap scaling is higher) and applies Liquify. (Spider) Deals Magic Damage and bonus damage on lower health % targets (again, lower % higher ratio) and consumes Liquify to heal for X amount +AP

W= (Human) Summons a volatile Spider at the location, which walks to foes to explode on, dealing magic damage. The spider can be damaged but is ignored by minions and turrets. (Spider) Increase movement speed by 50% and 10/15/20/25/30% Attack speed per spiderling you have. Lasts 2/2.5/3/3.5/4 seconds.

E= (Human) Shoots webbing to stun the first target hit. (may have to nerf to some mild degree, depending on overall damage.) (Spider) Goes up in the air for only 1 second (down from 2), but can now select target mid animation and will rapple down to them regardless of distance. This allows fast assassin plays.

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