One of the most underlooked contributors to modern day "CC Creep"

HateDaddy··73 votes·3,387 views

Is the oversaturation of CDR available to every class. While this should theoretically increase the ability of gap closers to be used more frequently to outplay more readily available CC, the reality is that it doesn't. That's because gap closers typically have longer CDs than most CC spells, not to mention gap closers are usually only exclusive to a single spell in a champions kit (if you even have one; if you don't, god help you) while several champions have CC in 2-3 spells. Not to mention, any gap closing champion that isn't ranged is so easy to predict that "skill shots" really require no skill to use in the sense: just hang onto the spell until they jump on you and CC them upon landing. Ezpz.

This is the one area that could be addressed to reduce the prevalence of CC in this game. It's so stupid how many items randomly give CDR, even items that have no CDR in their recipes (literally like every tank item not named Randuins/thornmail). What's the point of having cooldowns anymore when champions who are designed to be weak between cooldowns (tanks and casters) virtually have no realistic cooldowns?

Honestly, chain CC needs to be looked into regardless. There was once a time in this game where chain CCing a single target took some coordination and management of resources but that isn't the case anymore. And between all the shields, heals, banshees, QSS and exhaust existing, there's no point in attempting to use this CC on ranged AP/AD carry - so melees get the short end of the stick here. This is why literally J4 and tanks are the only viable melees at this point. J4 has the dive/utility to be useful regardless of score and his ult legitimately guarantees flashes half of the time. Aside from this, tanks are the only thing that can handle all the outpouring damage that gets thrown their way when they can no longer move - but that's only if their team is ahead, if they're behind they will die just as fast.

I actually think the game is very well balanced currently. But there are some pretty glaring issues that make the game pretty unfun for certain classes. I'd like to think maybe this will get addressed one day but let's be real, probably not.

83 Comments

Escheton22 votes

item 3508 is really telling of Riots stance on cdr.

Personally, I want health/5 back, and there to be less cdr on tank items. I want tank items to reward aggresive trading on high health/5 champions. Where you heal up beyond your opponent during the next wave. Tanks are about strategy over tactics. Bruisers and Toplane carries are about tactics over strategy. I want smart Tanks to be able to more efficiently build to lose the battle but win the war.

Ralanr9 votes

I don't understand the difference between tactics and strategy. I think those are synonymous.

EndlessSorcerer16 votes

While I'm not precisely sure if this is the same in gaming terminology:

  • Strategy is your overall objective/goal
  • Tactics are actions taken for the purpose of achieving your objective

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactic_(method)#Strategy_versus_tactic

If, for example, the overall goal is to win a war against another country, one strategy might be to undermine the other nation's ability to wage war by preemptively annihilating their military forces. The tactics involved might describe specific actions taken in specific locations, like surprise attacks on military facilities, missile attacks on offensive weapon stockpiles, and the specific techniques involved in accomplishing such objectives.

Ralanr7 votes

Huh. I assumed strategy was the plan to get to the goal, not the actual goal.

Escheton17 votes

{quoted}

I don't understand the difference between tactics and strategy. I think those are synonymous.

Strategy is warding the Dragonpit when drag is up in 40 seconds. Tactics is using vision knowledge to get a pick.

macromite1 votes

wat

Looknook6 votes

He is saying tactics is the micro game, the moment to moment gameplay, while strategy is the macro game, the long term decision making/ planning 5 to 10 ahead.

Spoofghoul5 votes

Tactic is short term

Strategy is long term

Teridax683 votes

Several more players mentioned this already, but I think the core difference between strategy and tactics in-game is that strategy is the overarching plan you have to achieve your goal, e.g. picking a late-game comp and focusing on outscaling your opponents as your win condition, whereas tactics are the much more micro-level decisions you make to achieve a smaller sub-goal, e.g. walking around the enemy turret as Alistar in order to knock a target out of its safety as part of a specific gank. At an even more micro level you have mechanical plays and outplays, which are much more reactive, generally over in the space of a few seconds, and will make or break the tactic you employed, which will then affect the success of your overall strategy.

Elkington VI1 votes

{quoted}

I don't understand the difference between tactics and strategy. I think those are synonymous.

The way I see it, tactics are a part of strategy. Strategy is what is exercised over an entire operation, while tactics are what will help one complete the mission. Tactics are the building blocks of strategy.

Serika Zero7 votes

almost every new hero has a knock-up knock-ups are not affected by tenacity

this should tell you enough about riot's stance on cc

Ralanr5 votes

"We want you to dodge".

Teridax686 votes

Cooldown reduction I think is one of those stats that feels good to practically everyone (fewer downtimes = more casts = more fun), and as a consequence is always something players would like to max out if they had the option. However, whereas previously the stat was on far fewer items, and often forced the player to sacrifice power elsewhere for it, it's now been sprinkled arbitrarily on a whole bunch of items just to make them more desirable (e.g. CDR on Warmog's), often without any real tradeoff, as is the case for Morellonomicon giving 20% CDR on top of 100 AP, a good chunk of mana and two pretty good passives (it's always had CDR, but had significantly less power everywhere else before the Mage Update). We're at a stage where it's possible to max out on CDR by accident, and in some cases it's actually a struggle to not go over the cap, which I think is a big red flag.

If there is one class who could be somewhat justified in having CDR, it would be supports. Literally no other class has any real business having it: assassins and mages are both gated by forced downtimes via high cooldowns, and so should not be able to reduce one of their core sources of counterplay, fighters and marksmen are largely meant to rely on autoattacks, and so shouldn't be able to dilute the high moments brought about by their abilities, and tanks are the most liable to have hard CC, and so are the first ones to start making life unlivable for other melee champions once they can make their CC chains look more like CC loops. Supports technically do have a lot of CC as well, but also really want to make sure they can use their abilities the moment they're needed once fights start getting hectic, plus they have so few stats to scale with already that it might be better to give them at least this than force even more of their itemization into healing/shielding power.

If the end problem is that base cooldowns are too high for most champions due to how they're balanced against CDR, one possible answer might be to tone down those bases in addition to stripping the stat from itemization. Doing so would make evaluating the uptime of CC much more consistent, and would allow those effects to be balanced with much more certainty, as I feel the current overabundance of cooldown reduction also makes people look at base cooldowns and not realize how frequently crowd control is actually being dished out.

Champion Skin2 votes

Well CDR is kind of OP for all ability based champions (for AA champions it doesn't do that much) Though CDR has always been available to some degree if you were willing to pay for it with runes giving up to 15% flat CDR (blues and quints) and up to 30% CDR at level 18 (blues and quints CDR/level) and that's with no items

0% CDR ---> 10/10 = 1 times as many abilities 10% CDR ---> 10/9 = 1.111 times as many abilities 20% CDR ---> 10/8 = 1.25 times as many abilities 30% CDR ---> 10/7 = 1.429 times as many abilities 40% CDR ---> 10/6 = 1.667 times as many abilities

45% CDR ---> 100/55 = 1.818 times as many abilities

So in the most extreme case of 45% CDR you get of 81.8% more abilities which means 81.8% higher ability DPS and 81.8% more CC... that is really powerful (And 50% CDR though not possible is intuitively 100% increase as half the cooldown means getting twice as many abilities out during the same amount of time except when it comes to burst of course)

And yes Morellonomicon is absurdly powerful Giving between 25% - 48.4% increase in ability DPS (0 --> 20% CDR, 25% ----> 45%) On top of also giving 100 AP which probably makes it more powerful than Rabadons deathcap when it comes to DPS (though I suppose that doesn't say much when most mages build Morellonomicon and very few build Rabadons deathcap)

Though to be fair mages usually care more about burst than DPS but it is still incredibly powerful

Oh and there are some abilities that benefit less from CDR mostly abilities that don't go on cooldown before they finish like shields where the cooldown don't start ticking down before the shield breaks or Tahm W which doesn't start ticking down before the enemy/ally is spit out

Oh and pushing tanks away from CDR might not that easily done.... since tanks usually only scale with durability and CDR.... especially late game getting of 1 more CC on the enemy carry will likely save a lot more HP than most defensive options can provide (and it also prevent the enemy from dealing damage to other targets as well)

Ralanr5 votes

It's not just CC that the increase of CDR has attributed to, its damage. Combos can happen so much faster now.

HateDaddy5 votes

{quoted}

It's not just CC that the increase of CDR has attributed to, its damage. Combos can happen so much faster now.

true but believe it or not, damage isn't what's so detrimental to a bruiser or even light fighters - light fighters typically have built in tools to deal with burst and bruisers get chunky enough to absorb some damage. It's simply being locked down forever and then having damage thrown at them that they have no way of outplaying.

Ralanr4 votes

I wasn't talking for fighters there. I was talking for squishies.

More damage in the game hurts them more. The more CDR we got, the more combos they get to the face.

Over abundance of CDR is hurting everyone.

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

I wasn't talking for fighters there. I was talking for squishies.

More damage in the game hurts them more. The more CDR we got, the more combos they get to the face.

Over abundance of CDR is hurting everyone.

I don't think more damage hurts squishies anymore oddly enough. Squishies blow up on impact regardless and always have. As a really really rough example, whether you do 1k or 1.8k to them when they have 800 HP really doesn't matter, they die either way. Obviously that's a bit less true considering all the heals and shields thrown their way these days.

Ahristocats5 votes

pretty sure that everyone knows cc creeps was caused by cdr

you have to be incredibly stupid to not know it

HateDaddy9 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7BExO2fU,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-08-21T16:53:14.733+0000)

pretty sure that everyone knows cc creeps was caused by cdr

you have to be incredibly stupid to not know it

My expectations are very low

Ahristocats4 votes

i saw people explaining to me the effect 1 week ago

due to cdr CC spells have less cd which means if you queue your cc well with your team you can pretty much have your cc back when the cc of your allies end

i experimented it with darius against morg+ivern+jhin+syndra

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7BExO2fU,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2017-08-21T17:07:06.530+0000)

i saw people explaining to me the effect 1 week ago

due to cdr CC spells have less cd which means if you queue your cc well with your team you can pretty much have your cc back when the cc of your allies end

i experimented it with darius against morg+ivern+jhin+syndra

I'm sorry for your loss :/

BobaFlautist5 votes

Let's not forget the overabundance of slows tacked on to buff up the power budget on otherwise fine skills.

I feel like with older champions, if an ability has a slow it's both a fundamental part of the ability and specifically planned that the champion has a slow in their kit, whereas modern champions are more like "Alright, let's give this a bit more oomph, how about a slow?"

  1. Like Camille E(? I think, maybe it's w), Ekko Q, Fiora E (w makes sense to me as "failed" conditional stuns like Bard Q and Irelia E often have slows) Gangplank Barrels, Ivern E, Jhin ult..there are too many to lost, but it feels like they all have powerful slows tacked on to stick some power in their kit.

Champs like Anivia, Ashe DrMundo Nasus, OI'm not necessarily gonna say that their slows are particularly healthy (lookin' at you, Nasus) but they certainly feel a lot more deliberate and calculated. It's a big part of the ability, you use the ability to slow, you don't use the ability for damage or something else and also it happens to slow.

Time was, your champion had solid slowing in their kit, that was worthy of note. You picked Ashe for her ability to control the battlefield, you picked Malphite both for his ulti, and for the chasing power in his Q. Now you have stupid shit like Vel'koz Q which has a massive, hugely impactful slow slapped on because "Well bruisers seem to be jumping on him and killing him more easily than he wanted let's...hmm. What if we just put a giant slow on his Q?"

Slows make skillshot ccs like Morg's, Lux's, and Brand's easier to land, and they (obviously) make it harder to chase or run away.

I am fully convinced that if Ziggs was rereleased today, his Q would have a 1.5s slow that scales with rank.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

whereas modern champions are more like "Alright, let's give this a bit more oomph, how about a slow?"

What? Cho'Gath's Q has a slow for that reason. That's a thing Riot's been doing for a very, very long time.

BobaFlautist3 votes

I'm not gonna say that old chanpions never have tacked-on slows, but for example with Cho'Gath, before his e slowed, his Q's knock-up was insufficient for him to close onto someone ranged. A heavily delayed high cooldown high mana cost knock-up having a slow at the end (rather than a longer knock-up) is very different than the examples I gave.

Old Cassiopeia or XinZhao woulda been much better examples, 'cause yes, there are solid examples of this on older champs.

But anyway, I feel like as a whole mages (and other champions, but especially mages) tend to have higher numbers of slows in their kit than they used to, and less of the abilities' power tied up in the slow. Maybe I'm just imagining it.

Sahn Uzal4 votes

I think you are.

The slow on Jhin's ultimate gives it a bit of extra ''Oomph'', sure. But it also allows him to have a better chance at hitting the R shots that'll follow up, thus making it a more reliable ability. With the delays and stuff it has rn, It'd be pretty damn fucking hard to hit all 4 shots on a target.

(Someone steps in E) > W > R a more reliable way of catching someone out than just R (Ignoring the fact that 3 spells deal more damage than 1, making this a no brainer, but you propably get the point.)

Gangplank's Powder kegs sure have a powerful slow, which allows him to catch up to his target to proc Trial by Fire, or to make sure he'll land his Deaths Daughter. GP would be a pretty shitty champ without that slow, I can tell you that much.

Dengeden4 votes

Only it's not. Tanks used to rush FH and anyone who wanted CDR all that badly got it from runes. Some still do.

"CC creep" in general is not a thing, there's more tenacity in the game than ever before.

This is why literally J4 and tanks are the only viable melees at this point.

You forgot about Fiora, Pantheon and Gragas, whom you hate (oh but let me guess, "they have bad designs" so they don't count as melees) and countless other melees dominating high elo and overall champion winrates. The likes of Garen and Voli are garbage tier, same as always but that's about it.

I'd like to think maybe this will get addressed one day but let's be real, probably not.

You might have to wait a little longer to have your wish due to your lack of examples for "this". Riot always nerfs everything eventually, if only for the sake of versatility but often because of community complaints.

Irelia Bot4 votes

I would take 3% more movement, 50 more HP, 5% more attack speed, 50 more Mana with 30 on hit magic damage on Trinity force if the CDR was removed while having the stinger repalced with a recurve bow and sheen havign 5% movement speed instead of 10% CDR

CDR should be a decision to build for. Not something that you passively get form building the strongest all around items like item 3165, item 3078 and item 3071

LankPants1 votes

To quote Riot when they first reworked Triforce "Tri's users don't actually want onhit damage"

Users of Triforce who like on-hit damage: Irelia , Jax , Ezreal , Corki , XinZhao , Fiora , Shen , Udyr Users of Triforce who are indifferent: Gangplank , Kayn , Vi Users of Triforce who'd be negatively impacted: Hecarim

I don't see Riot's argument personally, I've got to admit it.

Irelia Bot1 votes

Well there is also Yasuo... who doesn't even build trinity anymore from what I have gathered.

Meep Man2 votes

Ironically, Tanks have the overall worst options for CDR if you aren't a Tank Support.

Ahristocats4 votes

iceborn+adaptive helm/abyssal mask and you already have 30% cdr on mao

Ralanr3 votes

No reason to build those against heavy AD comps.

Except iceborn. Course then you can combine it with FH but you'll want health in between.

Ahristocats6 votes

sure

10% bonus magic damgae for your entire team, no reasons at all

Ralanr5 votes

If I'm the only source of magic damage, then yes.

Mogarl8 votes

If the tank is the only source of magic damage on the team. You should have already lost.

Ralanr2 votes

Full AD teams bro.

Meep Man2 votes

Iceborn isn't super insane of an item on most Tanks. Investing entirely into Armor and no other defensive stats can be risky on champions where their defensive capabilities isn't tied to spamming spells or some huge Armor scaling passive.

Glory ln Death1 votes

Yeah, that's because Iceborn is an offensive item, not a defensive one. You don't get it to be an unkillable tank, you get it to boost your damage and CC output while staying kind of chunky.

Escheton8 votes

{quoted}

Ironically, Tanks have the overall worst options for CDR if you aren't a Tank Support.

And AD assassins have it on every item they buy. It's a topsy turvy world.

iDarkWind1 votes

Shouldn't they ?

Escheton3 votes

They shouldn't even need it.

Handin Out Naps1 votes

Yes in a world with 2k shields assassins should not need cdr. They should somehow be able to function with one combo.

Escheton1 votes

Well, sorta. Those shields should and mostly are semi-long cooldown activatables. An assassin should either be able to kill fast enough in one rotation. All things being equal. Or bait out the safety button (and get out alive).

Preferably assassins catch people out where shields are unavailable. Or the toplane+support+jungler+lulu mid carrying support items-meta isn't a thing.

An Undead brat4 votes

No.

iDarkWind1 votes

They wouldn't if they could one shot properly, wich at the moment isn't the case.

Cowseed1 votes

Still questioning why it was tacked on to item 3147

Escheton2 votes

Same. That was such an odd choice. Prolly same thoughts as uniforming the MR-Tank items. Except Lethality is actually something you want to stack.

AmenPerson1 votes

I always like to think of Maokai and Naut when it comes to this stuff. What with them both having three forms of hard CC, and one form of light CC, as well as one form of sustain. Granted Maokai has a better form of sustain with that being a heal, and Naut being a shield. But they are the perfect examples of CC tanks.

Although, Maokai is better in, I'm gonna say 85% of all situations. But they are both similar in the regards of CC and why wont they die.

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