Well, Vayne two shots you. 'cause, you know, that's ONLY FAIR.
And who the fuck cares if you're a juggernaut? Vayne (and every other ADC) has 40% lifesteal and can drain tank literally anything that doesn't outright one shot her.
But, you know, ADCs are struggling, Vayne in particular, so we're goinna buff them all and give Vayne more damage on her Q and lower the mana cost on her E.
Remember though, we put the quality of our game before money!
MaeDoSan2 votesCould lay out the build the both of you had so that a quick calculation would validate your claim without any lingering doubt
Niyumi2 votes
-- ~3850 health, 160 armor.
Auto > Q was about half my health. If she ever got her W off, I'd be at 1/3ish health. And then one more auto > Q and I'm dead. Takes her about 1.2s to kill me, according to recap.
Oh, and my Q that does about a thousand damage? Yeah, I couldn't even get through her BT shield, even with my ult and zombies hitting her.
MaeDoSan1 votes1.2 seconds seems to less for you to even cast your wall and E her but anyways She has 409 ad (ult + 70 ) , 2.234 AS assuming fully stacked rageblade and 45 % bonus armor pen You have 4290 Hp ( guessing thats a cinderhulk ) 98 base armor and 62 bonus armor 100/ ( 100 + 98 + 62*0.55 ) = 43 % dmg tanken , giving you an effective health of 9957 almost 10k HP So she has to burn thru 10 HP lets assume she crits all of them 1st auto 409 x 2.5 (Crit) x 1.5 (Tumble) x 1.15 (LDR) = 1764 , o secs , tumble goes on cd (no cdr so 2 sec )
2nd auto remove 1.5 multipier = 1176 + 1200 (12% total hp true dmg) = 2376 , total = 4140 , 0.447 secs
3rd auto 1176 + 1200 (12% total hp true dmg) = 2376 , total = 6516 , 0.894 secs
4th auto 1176 , total = 7692 , 1.34 secs
5th auto 1176 + 1200 (12% total hp true dmg) = 2376, total = 10068 , 1.787 secs
Now you are dead adding a red pot and Assuming she had 3 infernals with elder she would do another bonus 36% dmg that would be 440 x 1.36 = 600 ad ( a little more added from runes and masteries ) compare with initial 409 , increasing her dmg by 46 % That would mean you would die on the 4 th auto meaning 1.34 secs ( just scale ad dmg by 1.46 and seperately add true dmg , you get 10 k dmg )
After all that and a little help from her team I guess you could get taken down instantly , Given that she alone can take you down in somewhere between 1.4 to 1.8 secs , with fluctuation in runes and drakes also assuming (perfectly timed/no) kiting from her
So your claim is 100 % valid [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]
FCK VAYNE
Its All Skillzz1 votes1.2 seconds seems to less for you to even cast your wall and E her but anyways She has 409 ad (ult + 70 ) , 2.234 AS assuming fully stacked rageblade and 45 % bonus armor pen You have 4290 Hp ( guessing thats a cinderhulk ) 98 base armor and 62 bonus armor 100/ ( 100 + 98 + 62*0.55 ) = 43 % dmg tanken , giving you an effective health of 9957 almost 10k HP So she has to burn thru 10 HP lets assume she crits all of them 1st auto 409 x 2.5 (Crit) x 1.5 (Tumble) x 1.15 (LDR) = 1764 , o secs , tumble goes on cd (no cdr so 2 sec ) 2nd auto remove 1.5 multipier = 1176 , total = 2940 , 0.447 secs 3rd auto 1176 + 514.8 (12% total hp) = 1689 , total = 4629 , 0.894 secs 4th auto 1176 , total = 5805 , 1.34 secs 5th auto 1176 , total = 6981 , 1.787 secs 6th auto 1176 + 514.8 = 1689 , total = 8670, 2.234 secs 7th auto 1764 (tumble off cd ) , total = 10,434 , 2.734 secs (assuming 0.5 sec cast time for her tumble) Now you are dead adding a red pot and Assuming she had 3 infernals with elder she would do another bonus 36% dmg that would be 440 x 1.36 = 600 ad ( a little more added from runes and masteries ) compare with initial 409 , increasing her dmg by 46 % That would mean you would die on the 5th auto meaning 1.787 secs ( just scale dmg by 1.46 ) at best
After all that and a little help from her team I guess you could get taken down in 1.2 secs , Given that she alone can take you down in somewhere between 1.8 to 2.8 secs , with fluctuation in runes and the guinsoo stacks also assuming (perfectly timed/no) kiting from her
So your claims are valid as long as this happened during a teamfight
[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]
everyone knows vayne is gonna shread a guy stacking health with no armor an she rage blade which gives her a W on every 2nd hit lol. 160 armor is like base armor of an adc with 1 armor item.
MaeDoSan1 votesGot it wrong the 1st time forgot about guinsoo passive and that it was true dmg, and you can clearly see the difference in dmg
oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votesyet if you got something like 
im sure you would of lived longer and she wouldnt of killed you and you would have sticking power to shut her down
but ok get mercs and get banshees and only 160 and cry over vayne
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7AkEPU84,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2017-02-19T00:36:02.293+0000)
yet if you got something like
im sure you would of lived longer and she wouldnt of killed you and you would have sticking power to shut her down
but ok get mercs and get banshees and only 160 and cry over vayne
he would have dealt no damage on his own to threaten her. she would still win the damage race.
you dont become stronger against vayne the less damage you build and the more tanky you build. she becomes stronger against you, because her baseline damage is always the same, thanks to her w.
oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votesactually with the damage reduction the cds the aoe slow the aoe damage and the on hit damge from sheen procs with bonus base AD does a good amount of damage
SithesisLord1 votesVayne
-> 250% crit damage instead of the default 200% -> 12% damage reduction -> W passive proc'ing every two AAs, one of those most likely a crit -> Lifestealling off of said crit -> Having 45% bonus Armor Pen -> As well as most likely the full 15% extra physical damage from LDR's Giant Slayer
And you are still surprised she killed you fast?
Its All Skillzz2 votesfull build guniso vayne lol gg. incase you dont know when she has 8 stacks of that it lets her proc W on every 2nd hit instead of 3rd. she didnt 2 shot you but you dont got much tank lol 1 armor item 1 mr item. late game vayne is ment to kill brusiers/tanks with ease thats why you end the game before she gets to that point.
Niyumi2 votesShe kills tanks, she kills squishies, she kills juggernauts, she kills literally everything. And she does so from the moment she hits level 2, even easier when she hits 6.
Remind me why she hasn't been nerfed yet? VERY high playrate, above average winrate, no counterplay, but it's okay because she has one of the potentially most expensive skins in the game, yeah.
PermabannedGaren2 votesShe kills tanks, she kills squishies, she kills juggernauts, she kills literally everything. And she does so from the moment she hits level 2, even easier when she hits 6.
Vayne is meant to be able to kill "literally everything", she's the most target agnostic champion in an already target-agnostic role. Some champions are meant to be able to shred anyone regardless of their tank stats or lack of them. Master Yi is another such champion, as is Xin Zhao. All ADCs to an extent are.
Remind me why she hasn't been nerfed yet? VERY high playrate, above average winrate, no counterplay, but it's okay because she has one of the potentially most expensive skins in the game, yeah.
http://lolalytics.com/champion/Vayne/ADC/
Her win rate and overall performance is low actually.
Mecha MaIphite2 votesIt's almost like Vayne was made to beat juggernauts.
Niyumi1 votesIt's almost like Vayne is too strong and has no counterplay. Even if she was made to beat tanks, she shouldn't kill them in less than two seconds.
Mecha MaIphite3 votesLast time your "less than two seconds" was accompanied by a clip that you posted, showing you dying in seven seconds.
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=Mecha MaIphite,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7AkEPU84,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-02-18T21:34:29.660+0000)
It's almost like Vayne was made to beat juggernauts.
im only offended that she can do it in melee.
her kit is good enough on its own to beat them, with a reliable knockback, high mobility and stealth.
but when she can literally sit in melee range of a juggernaut and win by right clicking them, then something is wrong with the champion. lategame is no excuse. juggernauts are supposed to be lategame carries aswell.
and vayne being in melee of a juggernaut is simultaneously her largest fail scenario, while its their largest success scenario. she shouldnt be able to stat check them and just win in that situation anyways.
i can live with dieing to a vayne because she kited me. im not ok with her just sitting in melee range and winning the damage race because of a combination of obscene damage and lifesteal.
PermabannedGaren1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7AkEPU84,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2017-02-18T22:32:07.068+0000)
im only offended that she can do it in melee.
To who? Garen? Garen is shit. Ask for Garen to get a rework to make him stronger, not for an already weak at the moment champion to get nerfed.
her kit is good enough on its own to beat them, with a reliable knockback, high mobility and stealth.
but when she can literally sit in melee range of a juggernaut and win by right clicking them, then something is wrong with the champion. lategame is no excuse. juggernauts are supposed to be lategame carries aswell.
Yet there is not a single juggernaut that actually is one, as I brought up in my "Cho'gath should be a juggernaut" thread last night.
and vayne being in melee of a juggernaut is simultaneously her largest fail scenario, while its their largest success scenario. she shouldnt be able to stat check them and just win in that situation anyways.
Which juggernauts can she stat check in melee?
Garen? Garen is, once again, a sack of shit. Champions shouldn't be nerfed to his shitty level. He needs to be brought up to par, like Warwick was with his rework.
i can live with dieing to a vayne because she kited me. im not ok with her just sitting in melee range and winning the damage race because of a combination of obscene damage and lifesteal.
Generally she probably doesn't against Juggernauts. I know she doesn't against Trundle, for example.
Critmaster Garen1 votesWhich juggernauts can she stat check in melee?
garen, yorick, mundo, voli, trundle, even fucking illaoi.
darius is probably the only one a lategame vayne CANT stat check in melee. and only because at 5 bleed stacks a flash + q + ult 2 shots her.
PermabannedGaren1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7AkEPU84,comment-id=0002000100000000,timestamp=2017-02-18T23:02:53.668+0000)
garen
Probably.
yorick
Doubtful.
mundo
No, I'm a mastery seven Mundo player and I've played against my share of bad Vaynes who don't know how to kite. She can't plant her feet and manfight Dr. Mundo.
voli
Likely, yes.
trundle
God no. Trundle is the stat check king. Vayne wishes her healing was on par with Trundle's.
even fucking illaoi.
I doubt it, but maybe in a 1v1, given how her ult works.
darius is probably the only one a lategame vayne CANT stat check in melee. and only because at 5 bleed stacks a flash + q + ult 2 shots her.
She probably also can not stat check Darius.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesYou have 2 offensive items and 1 offtank item, and only 2 defensive items, only one of which gives armor.
Of course a glasscannon Vayne build will oneshot you.
Paroe1 votesWhy is everyone saying 160 is "no armor"? 150 is where the first soft cap is.
Armor is designed to protect against attack speed but not crit or true damage; Because offense so thouroughly outscales traditional defense even a 600 armor 3000HP tank would be shredded to bits by the raw sustained burst of crit.
Critmaster Garen1 votesmaybe silver bolts should only apply if the projectile travelled a certain distance.
like lets say above 50% of her auto attack range.
that would give her w more of a gameplay counter to where when you can stick in melee range of her (which is hard enough as it is with all of the tools available to her), she doesnt get most of her damage against you.
Niyumi1 votesSilver Bolts isn't the issue. The issue is that she Qs and autos me for 800 even if I have armor. The W does less damage than her physical damage.
Critmaster Garen1 votesSilver Bolts isn't the issue. The issue is that she Qs and autos me for 800 even if I have armor. The W does less damage than her physical damage.
silver bolts is an issue because its the only source of % health true damage in the game that doesnt have a gameplay counter.
if youre building tanky, then her w tends to make up 30% to 50% of her damage.
q + auto attack + e applies her w already once in about half a second. then she hits you another 3 times within the next 1.5 seconds.
thats already 24% of your health in true damage, no matter what you built and who you are.
true damage is about as crazy as vaynes, but makes her movement telegraphed, and forces her to come close into melee range to get to it. vitals can be out of reach for her or force her into an awkward spot.
true damage is actually just a small supplement with 10% max health on a full spin. and he needs to get to a specific enemy champion to get the bonus.
only condition to get her true damage is to auto attack the target infront of her. something she does anyways.
imo, silver bolts just doesnt have a gameplay counter to it to justify how powerful it is.
Niyumi1 votesWell, she's supposed to shred tanks (not like every other ADC does too). The numbers might be a bit high, sure, but her physical damage does 4-5 times the true damage.
Critmaster Garen1 votesWell, she's supposed to shred tanks (not like every other ADC does too). The numbers might be a bit high, sure, but her physical damage does 4-5 times the true damage.
only against squishy targets. ive had death recaps against vayne, where she dealt a good 40% of my health in true damage in just a couple of seconds.
yes, vayne is supposed to be able to deal with tanks or tanky opponents. but in many cases, she takes it too far.
was supposed to deal with adc. but he did it so reliably and so effordless, that his kit was still deemed toxic and warranted a rework.
the same goes for vayne. she offers little to no couterplay for the champions she counters.
i dont see why these design values should only be applied to champions that counter adc too hard, and not to adc who counter certain other champions too hard.
are we putting a limit on how far a champion can go in countering another champion or not?
Niyumi1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7AkEPU84,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-18T22:58:30.310+0000)
i dont see why these design values should only be applied to champions that counter adc too hard, and not to adc who counter certain other champions too hard.
A: ADCs are the most profitable class in the game.
B: Vayne has one of the most potentially expensive skins in the game.
Because of those two factors, she will never be brought down to reality. That's just how F2P works, especially when a Chinese mega corporation owns the game.
PermabannedGaren1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7AkEPU84,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-02-18T22:39:40.515+0000)
maybe silver bolts should only apply if the projectile travelled a certain distance.
like lets say above 50% of her auto attack range.
that would give her w more of a gameplay counter to where when you can stick in melee range of her (which is hard enough as it is with all of the tools available to her), she doesnt get most of her damage against you.
And what buffs would you suggest to offset this huge nerf?
Critmaster Garen2 votesAnd what buffs would you suggest to offset this huge nerf?
remove her q ability to crit and then increase that damage would be one option.
imo allowing it to crit was a dumb choice in the first place, considering how it allowed her to 2 shot other squishies from stealth. (and still does even after the nerf)
the only reason that crit build isnt relevant right now is because games dont move into lategame.
also one of the reasons why vayne performs "poorly" at the moment.
give it another meta shift of games just lasting slightly longer and lategame champs becoming relevant again, and vayne will be a stronger pick overall.
PermabannedGaren1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7AkEPU84,comment-id=000500010000,timestamp=2017-02-18T23:00:58.585+0000)
remove her q ability to crit and then increase that damage would be one option.
So you want to give her two nerfs and one compensation buff that likely won't make up for the loss of either of what you've taken from her, on a champion who has objectively been relatively bad since her nerfs?
You're a funny dude.
Critmaster Garen1 votesSo you want to give her two nerfs and one compensation buff that likely won't make up for the loss of either of what you've taken from her, on a champion who has objectively been relatively bad since her nerfs?
You're a funny dude.
you would just increase the damage on her q significantly without removing the crit? you are aware that a couple of patches ago she already was a huge problem, because she just came out of stealth literally 1 shotting other squishies with q crits? and thats not even an exaggeration, ive done it myself. how would you propose to buff the q damage significantly without removing its ability to crit first?
vaynes kit is kinda bullshit, because everything in it is way too reliable. you dont have a way to play around it really. like how do you outplay her stealth now? how do you outplay a point and click disengage? a bigass damage steroid on her r and her w? she has not a single ability that can be misplayed or fail.
mundo has more counterplay than vayne, because at least in his case you can dodge cleavers and kite him.
people are complaining about champions like yasuo, fiora, riven. but at least these champions have some room to actually mess up or get outplayed.
vayne is cancer for the same reason the old ryze was cancer. her entire kit is press button, or point and click from range for massive damage, and multiple failsafes in case you get close.
even the 3 hit passive on her w is a false choice, since you cant kite out of her range with how mobile she is thanks to her passive and q. you turn around to avoid the third stack, and she gets a movement speed buff and lands it anyways.
why would the thought of adding some gameplay counter to vayne be so terrible? doing something like giving silver bolts a minimum distance to activate would punish her for getting caught out of position while it would have no impact on vaynes who keep kiting and position properly.
she shouldnt get the silver bolts stack on her e either, unless she hits the stun.
PermabannedGaren1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7AkEPU84,comment-id=00050001000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-25T12:10:53.330+0000)
you would just increase the damage on her q significantly without removing the crit? you are aware that a couple of patches ago she already was a huge problem, because she just came out of stealth literally 1 shotting other squishies with q crits? and thats not even an exaggeration, ive done it myself. how would you propose to buff the q damage significantly without removing its ability to crit first?
vaynes kit is kinda bullshit, because everything in it is way too reliable. you dont have a way to play around it really. like how do you outplay her stealth now? how do you outplay a point and click disengage? a bigass damage steroid on her r and her w? she has not a single ability that can be misplayed or fail.
mundo has more counterplay than vayne, because at least in his case you can dodge cleavers and kite him.
people are complaining about champions like yasuo, fiora, riven. but at least these champions have some room to actually mess up or get outplayed.
vayne is cancer for the same reason the old ryze was cancer. her entire kit is press button, or point and click from range for massive damage, and multiple failsafes in case you get close.
even the 3 hit passive on her w is a false choice, since you cant kite out of her range with how mobile she is thanks to her passive and q. you turn around to avoid the third stack, and she gets a movement speed buff and lands it anyways.
why would the thought of adding some gameplay counter to vayne be so terrible? doing something like giving silver bolts a minimum distance to activate would punish her for getting caught out of position while it would have no impact on vaynes who keep kiting and position properly.
she shouldnt get the silver bolts stack on her e either, unless she hits the stun.
It's interesting how your post was so long but didn't have a single line in it answering the question I posed to you, you just danced around it.
Why should Vayne get two nerfs without adequate compensation buffs when she is already objectively doing poorly, and has been since her nerfs? Answer the question.
Critmaster Garen1 votesIt's interesting how your post was so long but didn't have a single line in it answering the question I posed to you, you just danced around it.
Why should Vayne get two nerfs without adequate compensation buffs when she is already objectively doing poorly, and has been since her nerfs? Answer the question.
what would you consider adeqate compensation buffs?
i mentioned a buff to her q damage. how it turns out as a buff would depend on the numbers. how much shed be neccessary to get buffed would depend on how a gameplay change would affect her.
chaging numbers around afterwards to buff other parts of her kit could only be done when you know how much adding a gameplay counter would actually nerf her.
Jezebelle1 votesHer winrate is low because plebs pick her thinking they can Doublelift. Buffing her is a bad idea, because then LCS will complain then Vayne will be gutted.
GULAG 4 U1 votesHow does vayne twoshot someone with 4K hp and 160 armor? Where's the math?
Son, you need to get better math grades already.