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Please include champion proficiency when balancing teams

JavelinJoe··1 votes·306 views

It really does not make much of a difference having 2 members from 1 division up if 4 of the enemy team are all on champs who they have over 150 games on this season in ranked, while all of your team has less than 20 games on their champs. Now It is not a foolproof system I know. But players tend to play the same champions a lot if they really like them. And it is obvious when looking at their game history since it is all 1 champion. So putting all of them on one team is really unfair, arguably just as much as a 4-5 man premade is against a full team of solos (ok maybe not that much but it is still significant).

So if this detail could be included in the way team balancing happens, it would be much appreciated.

Also, I remember hearing about a saying which perfectly describes this concept (might not be exactly correct because I do not remember where I heard it from, so this is the best I got for accuracy): "A weapon is only as powerful as its wielder, where even if the ultimate weapon were in the hands of a fool, they would still be defeated by a stone thrown by a master".

6 Comments

KillerKell1 votes

How is it going to do that... since it selects the Players BEFORE they select the Champions?

And if you do some Champion Suggestion idea, what happens when that guy has his Main Banned, but the Game matched you because of the Champ that is now Banned, so he plummets in ability thus turning into a handicap?

Did you think any of this through?

Also, if they were a Master throwing a Stone, they would be in the Highest Division... so those guys aren't affecting your play, unless you are in the Highest Division.

JavelinJoe1 votes

I had no intention of it being the key focus. Just something to keep in mind and maybe tweak slightly to offset the difference a bit.

I have thought this through btw.

Lastly it is a philosophical quote. It is not meant to be taken that literally. I meant for it to describe how someone who is not skilled with a really great champion whom which they are playing as, will loss to a master on a really shitty champion because of the difference in skill and familiarity with their respective champions.

KillerKell1 votes

You didn't answer what I asked, though.

  1. How can the game take into account your Champions, when it Queues the Players before they express intent.

  2. How do you combat an 'Increased MMR' due to Specific Champ, then that Player has his Champion Banned and your Team suffers an MMR Loss AFTER Teams are paired to play? You WERE evenly matched, until those Mains got Banned... now it's completely lopsided because Champions were taken into account in the first place.

That's all I'm asking, two simply questions.

Which is why I felt you hadn't really thought this through. Sure, you've thought about it. But haven't really looked at it from a variety of angles to see if it's something that can work.

JavelinJoe1 votes

  1. The game runs an active log of every single player's statistics. It already knows your mmr, rank, and general skill level (to an extent). And it also has to have access to your champion pool in order to display your potential selections in champion select. All that would be required is a small shift in when info is acquired by the server for it to have access to all the games you have played and your champion tendencies. Dynamic Queue actually makes this slightly easier since you already can queue by role. Team Builder had code in it to draft by champion as well. So it should not be too difficult to get that information prior to the champion select lobby.

  2. MMR is part of their own system which they use to determine skill level and balanced match-ups. All that is needed is a variable for champon proficiency. Something small so as not to compleatly destroy a team member if a ban happens. Also, RIOT has made it clear that you can't use just 1 champion for everything efficiently because there is bans. The reason though this is not as big of an impact as it should be is because no one knows who the other's mains are (except for very high ranked players like in the LCS who have numerous games played vs the same opponents). Also, with only 3 bans, the chances that all 3 will be hard mains of 3 players is very unlikely. Plus, the bans usually go for the "OP/Broken" champions who currently are experiencing a bit too much power. So the chances that you are shut down compleatly because of bans are very unlikely. I believe you are misunderstanding me a bit also when you say that champion proficiency is increased MMR. If that were the case, people would not drop in MMR levels when the repeatedly play the same champion because the more you play a champion, the better you get at them. You do not suddenly revert all your talent randomly from game to game. Most likely this has nothing to do with MMR, and if it does, not anything significant.

Let me ask you this. Why is ranked divided up by divisions of skill level? It is so players are not overwhelmed or underwhelmed by the differences in individual talent. You do not see Champion division players playing Bronze division players. It is because the skill difference is enormous and the bronze players would be destroyed hands down. This is unfortunately why "smurf" accounts exist. To play with the skill differences and win easy games. So, if this is recognised as an important thing to balance around, why leave out champion proficiency? It is very similar in concept and can generate similar results too. MMR is basically your overall skill at playing the game. Well, champions are part of the game, so it should makes sense that they be included in balancing.

RIOT has said that any champion can be played in any role to some level of effectiveness, and that they just tend to have a more ideal one than all the others. Also, they said that although certain champions are good/bad against other specific champions, there is not a single match-up that is a guaranteed loss for the one side every time. So basically, any and every champion has the potential to become a carrying force on a team. This is another reason champion proficiency should be taken into account for balancing purposes.

To wrap up question 2, it is impossible for a team to be compleatly banned out of all their mains if they do not ban 2 of their own. And 2 mains is plenty vs no mains. Secondly, every player should have 2-3 backups for their roles because they always could be banned out. That is common sense pretty much. If you do not, then it is your own fault for being a 1 trick pony, not the game's nor your team's or the opponent's. if you have 1 champion you are good at, you let yourself and your team down for not being prepared for ranked and a ban based environment. Currently, your "evenly matched games" do not take this concept into consideration, so they really are not all that evenly matched to be honest. It is the same as previous season rankings not being taken into as much consideration as they should be, but that is for a different post.

KillerKell1 votes

{quoted}

  1. The game runs an active log of every single player's statistics. It already knows your mmr, rank, and general skill level (to an extent). And it also has to have access to your champion pool in order to display your potential selections in champion select. All that would be required is a small shift in when info is acquired by the server for it to have access to all the games you have played and your champion tendencies. Dynamic Queue actually makes this slightly easier since you already can queue by role. Team Builder had code in it to draft by champion as well. So it should not be too difficult to get that information prior to the champion select lobby.

  2. MMR is part of their own system which they use to determine skill level and balanced match-ups. All that is needed is a variable for champon proficiency. Something small so as not to compleatly destroy a team member if a ban happens. Also, RIOT has made it clear that you can't use just 1 champion for everything efficiently because there is bans. The reason though this is not as big of an impact as it should be is because no one knows who the other's mains are (except for very high ranked players like in the LCS who have numerous games played vs the same opponents). Also, with only 3 bans, the chances that all 3 will be hard mains of 3 players is very unlikely. Plus, the bans usually go for the "OP/Broken" champions who currently are experiencing a bit too much power. So the chances that you are shut down compleatly because of bans are very unlikely. I believe you are misunderstanding me a bit also when you say that champion proficiency is increased MMR. If that were the case, people would not drop in MMR levels when the repeatedly play the same champion because the more you play a champion, the better you get at them. You do not suddenly revert all your talent randomly from game to game. Most likely this has nothing to do with MMR, and if it does, not anything significant.

Let me ask you this. Why is ranked divided up by divisions of skill level? It is so players are not overwhelmed or underwhelmed by the differences in individual talent. You do not see Champion division players playing Bronze division players. It is because the skill difference is enormous and the bronze players would be destroyed hands down. This is unfortunately why "smurf" accounts exist. To play with the skill differences and win easy games. So, if this is recognised as an important thing to balance around, why leave out champion proficiency? It is very similar in concept and can generate similar results too. MMR is basically your overall skill at playing the game. Well, champions are part of the game, so it should makes sense that they be included in balancing.

RIOT has said that any champion can be played in any role to some level of effectiveness, and that they just tend to have a more ideal one than all the others. Also, they said that although certain champions are good/bad against other specific champions, there is not a single match-up that is a guaranteed loss for the one side every time. So basically, any and every champion has the potential to become a carrying force on a team. This is another reason champion proficiency should be taken into account for balancing purposes.

To wrap up question 2, it is impossible for a team to be compleatly banned out of all their mains if they do not ban 2 of their own. And 2 mains is plenty vs no mains. Secondly, every player should have 2-3 backups for their roles because they always could be banned out. That is common sense pretty much. If you do not, then it is your own fault for being a 1 trick pony, not the game's nor your team's or the opponent's. if you have 1 champion you are good at, you let yourself and your team down for not being prepared for ranked and a ban based environment. Currently, your "evenly matched games" do not take this concept into consideration, so they really are not all that evenly matched to be honest. It is the same as previous season rankings not being taken into as much consideration as they should be, but that is for a different post.

Now you are looking like some one who has thought some things through. Still some issues, but much better.

Again, a major problem here is with the System not knowing who the Players pick until the Team is put into Queue. They choose the Queue off of MMR.

Now, let's take me for example. My Thresh is really good. I'm talking 13.5K Gold, 4 KDA, 4 Kills and 21.5 Assists per game. If the only thing I did was Play Thresh, who also happens to be at a 67% Win Rate for me... I'd climb.

Now, I get what you are saying. You want that taken into account, because despite me being a Bronze Over All, my Thresh is well above Bronze Capability. You don't want guys like me, and better than me at an Individual Champion, curb stomping equal MMR Opponents because we have a certain level of actual Mastery (not the scoring Mastery) on a Champion... because on those certain Champions we don't 'Play like our Rank'.

The issue still comes in (1) Knowing I'm going to Support, (2) Knowing I'm going to Thresh and (3) knowing Thresh isn't going to be Banned.

Here's why. If the Match Making 'boosts' me because it's likely I play Thresh, that increases the MMR for my Entire Team, which is what we are going to be matched against, our Total MMR as a Team. If EVERYONE is getting 'bonus' for their Mains, then the entire Team has an Inflated MMR (as does the Opponent).

So if we all get our guys... we should have an awesome game against an evenly matched Opponent. Which is great, we want that.

But let's say you and I are both great Supports. I got Support. You got ADC. You okay at ADC, not bad... but not nearly as good as you are on Braum. We are already playing below the Projected (Infalted) MMR. Now let's say my Thresh is Banned, which does happen in Low Elo. Well now I take an MMR Dive. I mean, my Leona is solid, just not as scary as my Thresh.

Suddenly, it's not nearly the awesomely even match up it was when they Queued us, because to many variables existed and screwed with our Comp.

Now, you say we should have Back Up Champions... and you are right. But you are specifically talking about Players that are REALLY GOOD on ONE CHAMPION, because of Proficiency. OBVIOUSLY their 'Next Champ' won't be nearly as good. In fact those Player likely have more fall off than the average player who spreads his games over all his Champions.

So all we are doing is setting ourselves up for POTENTIALLY have great match ups because everyone gets their Main and thus we all play 'over' our Actual Level... which would be some cool stuff... but risk having just one person not get their Main tossing the entire thing into a lop-sided matchup.

There are just to many variables already in place to take Possible Champion Selection into account when matching teams.

Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate the attempt... just to many variables that will screw it up every time.

Eedat1 votes

No.

If you are playing a champ in ranked you need to be prepared

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