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Can we not do to Rek'sai what we did to Darius?

hashinshin··131 votes·14,687 views

On release Darius was overpowered. Not OMG THIS IS SO BROKEN overpowered, but overpowered. Much like Rek'sai is right now. Like Rek'sai they nerfed the AD ratio on his passive from 0.4 to 0.3 (they're nerfing Rek'sai's Q to 0.3 from 0.4.)

The problem? Much like Darius this is just going to cause end game woes for Rek'sai while doing little to curb the early game power that Rek'sai commands. Like Darius this will just discourage damage builds and focus more on full tank builds or trinity/full tank builds. Like Darius this is not a satisfying nerf that will leave an incredible laning phase and a weak late game.

I know Riot sees melee building damage and immediately thinks "WHY NOT FULL TANK?" but maybe we can leave in some AD ratios and weaken their early game a bit to smooth over the early->late game transition? Not every bruiser needs to be a laning phase bully. Did nerfing Darius's AD ratios work? Did nerfing Yorick's AD ratios work? Did nerfing Jax's AD ratios work? Did nerfing Garen's AD ratios work? Did nerfing Kha'zix's AD ratios work? Did nerfing Malphite's armor ratio work? Did nerfing Shen's AP ratios work? Did nerfing Rammus's armor ratios work? Did nerfing Mordekaiser's AP ratios work? did nerfing Rengar's AD ratios work? I could go on but I'm bored.

Either way point stands: Riot always jumps on nerfing the AD ratios because for some unknown reason they just believe that trinity/full tank is the way to go for bruisers, and if they weren't dominant in the laning phase that they'd be bad design. If we lopped 20 damage off Rek'sai's Q (-0/-5/-10/-15/-20 at rank 1-5 respectively) it would amount to a much more reasonable nerf than removing 0.3 AD ratio total off the ability and would actually achieve what you want to achieve.

Also why the hell are you reducing the AP ratio on her Q? Does it really annoy you so much that people build AP on champions you don't want them to that you will go out of your way to hound people down who want to have a little fun? "Oh hey, Rek'sai has a 1.0 AP ratio on her Q, I'm gonna go AP Rek'sai cause that might be funny!" Then suddenly Riot comes down in a black helicopter and punches them in the face and says "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING KID? YOU PLAY HER TRINITY FULL TANK I WILL END YOU IF YOU BUILD AP ON A CHAMPION WE DIDN'T EAR MARK FOR AP ITEMS!"

155 Comments

FalconPawwwwnch95 votes

Are you suggesting that a non marksmen class deserves a late game fantasy

Enjoy your ban

Knight Devout15 votes

How dare they, filthy non marksmen!

juaumzitus7 votes

{quoted}

Are you suggesting that a non marksmen class deserves a late game fantasy

Enjoy your ban

When? How? Where? Since when Veigar, Nasus, Poppy, Jax, LeBlanc, Tryndamere, Yasuo, Yi, Warwick, Vi, Shyvana, Malzahar and Irelia are not late game demons?

GunpowderGolem31 votes

This sentence does not sentence what you think it sentences.

Spaga12 votes

logged in to upvote lol

Holy Malevolence26 votes

If Rek'sai is a problem, which I believe she could easily be, it's not because of her scaling. At all.

Ridiculous sustain? A little over the topish. High base damage? Kind of feels a bit like it. Her AP Scaling? Yeah fucking right.

Riot, stop forcing your bruisers into being nothing but build tank and hope to stay alive. It's a bad philosophy.

Jasiwel15 votes

To be fair, Rek'Sai is doing ridiculously well in top lane. That said, I really hope they don't gut her to Kha'Zam's current level. I think the Rengar comparison is spot on, but I also think it could be fair to compare Top Rek'Sai to mid Kha'Zix in Season 3 until the power shifting began.

Meep Man4 votes

The Void cries

soulbanana811 votes

They nerfed the AP because they remember pre-reworked Nidalee, which wasn't fun.

KevGatz11 votes

AP rek'sai was nerfed due to having a 4 sec CD nid spear that explodes in aoe while having 0 resource cost. Infinite siege/poke dmg that strong is something they don't want.

Saianna2 votes

But uh.. isn;t reks damage from poke low? I don't own him her but i believe his her damage is just rather meh

Sirsir17 votes

AD rek'sai q damage is meh, if she (SHE!!!) starts stacking AP then she's S3 Nidalee

...but AoE spears without mana...

KevGatz10 votes

{quoted}

But uh.. isn;t reks damage from poke low? I don't own him but i believe his damage is just rather meh

It's a 1:1 Ratio on the Q, AP rek'sai poke is strong with no resources. AD it's weak

Alurant4 votes

Except you needed to get to full 40% CDR before you even get a 3 second poke. pre CDR its at 7-8 seconds. the amount of health i've seen healed when i've tried doing AP reksai early game is stupid and compares nothing to nids spear of doom.

RyuPhalian9 votes

This seems more like Rengar then Darius. Rek'Sai is obviously a champion they made for the jungle, a strong AoE, gap closers, a form of sustain it's all there. But like Rengar, what can be strong in the jungle can also be strong in the top lane. When he first came out Rengar was pretty good in the jungle, not Lee Sin meta levels but he wasn't Warwick levels of bad (Warwick back then) so he was an ok pick. Sadly, his kit was stronger in top lane than in the jungle so Riot nerfed him several times to keep him in line and only afterwards saw what they did to Jungle Rengar (spoiler, it was closer to Warwick level).

But for how Riot nerfed her, I can see what they're going for. They don't want to hurt her jungling at all, and since the first clear is a "make or break" point, they really can't hurt the base damage of Queen's Wrath. As for Prey Seeker's nerf, I personally couldn't care less. I play Rek'Sai as a bruiser jungler and never get any AP, not even Trinity Force unless insanely fed. And personally, I am not a fan of any champion having a 100% scaling as that can escalate quickly. But if they had to nerf her damage I would have rather they nerf Unburrow as you want that for the CC, not the damage.

All in all, Rek'Sai isn't OP, people are just having a hard time catching her as she is highly mobile. Once the community starts to settle down and learn how to counter her (cough) Ward (cough) kill tunnels (cough) than she would seem much less OP.

AbodyHUN6661 votes

Wasn't Zac too nerfed out of the jungle too because he was too strong on top?

GaleWinUnleashed1 votes

Hey now, Zac was never locked out of the jungle. Did fine playing him through most of last season.

AbodyHUN6661 votes

I might have used a bit harsh words. I meant his clear was quite slow.

GaleWinUnleashed4 votes

That makes more sense. Anyway, he's better now, because the increased health of the jungle indirectly buffs his clear time compared to junglers that don't do max hp % damage.

JevelFaithful2 votes

{quoted}

But for how Riot nerfed her, I can see what they're going for. They don't want to hurt her jungling at all, and since the first clear is a "make or break" point, they really can't hurt the base damage of Queen's Wrath. As for Prey Seeker's nerf, I personally couldn't care less. I play Rek'Sai as a bruiser jungler and never get any AP, not even Trinity Force unless insanely fed. And personally, I am not a fan of any champion having a 100% scaling as that can escalate quickly. But if they had to nerf her damage I would have rather they nerf Unburrow as you want that for the CC, not the damage.

All in all, Rek'Sai isn't OP, people are just having a hard time catching her as she is highly mobile. Once the community starts to settle down and learn how to counter her (cough) Ward (cough) kill tunnels (cough) than she would seem much less OP.

I think the bolded part is a really interesitng point considering the new jungle.

Bears Dont Care9 votes

A melee champ with a late game? Can't have that. nerfs

Free Roll3 votes

Hate asshats who abuse cheese and then misrepresent it. Sorry dropping 1200 range aoe bombs, is going to preclude you from getting to be called a "melee" champion.

This champion is wildly OP, to give you guys an idea champsion like yasuo had 39% winrates upon release and look how madly OP he was. Before it is all said and done this champ will need many more nerfs. Reksai is stupidly OP.

Lord Dusteon8 votes

It really ticks me off. The base damage that makes her overbearing in lane is still there, just it's worse lategame.

Otherwise, her AP build isn't even close to viable now.

GaleWinUnleashed3 votes

The problem is that they need to keep her first clear for jungle reasonable, so they can't nerf Q base damage too much early game. They could do it if they were willing to give Q bonus damage against monsters to compensate, but for some reason they're doing this instead.

Narasimha7 votes

The very fact that Rek was designed as a jungler primary, yet your entire argument is about her laning, is kind of a nudge that something is a bit off.

hashinshin21 votes

{quoted}

The very fact that Rek was designed as a jungler primary, yet your entire argument is about her laning, is kind of a nudge that something is a bit off.

Yeah, a champion with easy escapes, awesome wave clear, healing, poke, high base damages, and easy CC is DEFINITELY not going to be used in lane.

For the same reason that it totally came out of left field that people used Renekton to lane (it did not come out of left field, that was sarcasm.)

iM Uranium6 votes

Oh you mean like AMUMU!? APUMU I mean? Now that was a full AP champ that is AMAZING to play.

gubigubi3 votes

I agree with a lot that you said but rek'sai will never be in the same spot Darius is in. She has an engage and an aoe popup darius only has his running shoes and a short range grab. At the moment AD rek'sai will out trade every single character in the game with her level 1 Q. Having a near 53% win rate on a champion that just got released is pretty clear they are easy to learn or to strong or both.

Hayaishi3 votes

Because you're abusing your free elo and don't want it nerfed.

Move along there's nothing to see.

IronChefBoyardee2 votes

I understand (even if I don't agree with) these changes but I hope they slightly up her base damage on her burrowed q. As an AD build, even with TF, it's not satisfying to use because it does so little damage at all stages of the game. It's almost like you don't have a burrowed q if you're AD.

Sirsir6 votes

Its supposed to be a utility spell, a source of vision when your own vision range is shorter than your auto range. Its so you know you are tunneling into the low hp Sona you were chasing not the 11/2 Darius that came to help her.

...true story.

IronChefBoyardee1 votes

Did you not see one step and then 2 steps and go "Oh shit someone else is there"?

InsaneSamurai3 votes

People are learning to stand still when Rek is chasing someone.

AbodyHUN6662 votes

And I need to learn that if I don't see them they can stil see me xD Seriously sometimes I feel like an ostrich xD

Wizzleboom2 votes

Gut her stupid escape tunnel.

This has got to be the worst thing to enter the game is ages. Unless you can stun and 100-0 her, she just lol tunnels away and regains all the hp back.

Low skillcap, no resource newb mode champ. gg.

Durzaka5 votes

{quoted}

Gut her stupid escape tunnel.

This has got to be the worst thing to enter the game is ages. Unless you can stun and 100-0 her, she just lol tunnels away and regains all the hp back.

Low skillcap, no resource newb mode champ. gg.

20-18 second cooldown escape.

One of the longest in the entire game.

kitcat3001 votes

I think he means her escaping through the tunnel network that she has already crated.

Durzaka7 votes

{quoted}

I think he means her escaping through the tunnel network that she has already crated.

Whose fault is it for letting that tunnel stay there? or for engaging on someone with an escaping waiting for them? its like seeing a thresh lantern and still being upset your target got away with it.

AtheosisX2 votes

The issue with that theory is she can engage with tunnel and then use it to escape through the same tunnel. It's not going to be easy to go stand on her tunnel in the middle of a fight.

Durzaka3 votes

{quoted}

The issue with that theory is she can engage with tunnel and then use it to escape through the same tunnel. It's not going to be easy to go stand on her tunnel in the middle of a fight.

If she engages and leaves through the same tunnel, something has gone SERIOUSLY wrong with that fight for your side. Because she cant use the same tunnel for 5-10 seconds after she uses it once.

Wizzleboom2 votes

Because I have time to stand on tunnels all game... There needs to be a cap on how many can be open or at least have them instantly break upon being walked over.

Not this stand still for 2 seconds bull shattery.

Also, to the guy that cries that her cd on tunnel is the longest escape in the game?!? Guess what, some are on minute long cos and most don't have any.

Durzaka2 votes

{quoted}

Because I have time to stand on tunnels all game... There needs to be a cap on how many can be open or at least have them instantly break upon being walked over.

Not this stand still for 2 seconds bull shattery.

Also, to the guy that cries that her cd on tunnel is the longest escape in the game?!? Guess what, some are on minute long cos and most don't have any.

There is a cap. 8 tunnels.

And bullshit. You can go through the list and see that a vast majority of the rooster now have an escape in some for or another. And in comapred to other escapes, the only ones that are as long are Corki's.

Wizzleboom1 votes

Urgot, Jayce, Cass, MF, Veigar, Anivia, Annie, Galio, Fiddle, Heimer, Darius.

I can go on and on proving you wrong but it would just make you look like an even bigger Reksai fan boy.

Durzaka2 votes

{quoted}

Urgot, Jayce, Cass, MF, Veigar, Anivia, Annie, Galio, Fiddle, Heimer, Darius.

I can go on and on proving you wrong but it would just make you look like an even bigger Reksai fan boy.

First, i dont even own Rek'sai.

Second, listing Immobile champions doesnt make your point any more valid. Especially when more than half of the ones you listed are viable right now.

Hawkefire2 votes

{quoted}

Urgot, Jayce, Cass, MF, Veigar, Anivia, Annie, Galio, Fiddle, Heimer, Darius.

I can go on and on proving you wrong but it would just make you look like an even bigger Reksai fan boy.

Destroying Rek'Sai's tunnles is quite easy, and generally it isn't a very risky move to do (although sometimes it is and it does depend on what kind of champion you are playing).

Also, your counterargument makes no sense, as 90% of these champions are NOTHING even REMOTELY similar to Rek.

Urgot is well-acknowledged to be in a terrible spot.

Jayce is ranged, with nidalee levels of poke. Also, has 2 speed boosts, and a knockback to disengage from melee.

Cass is ranged, and suffers from a failwork (although I haven't had enough time to formulate an opinion of where it stands as of this patch)

MF is ranged with a very heavy slow, but suffers from not being able to do anything better than any of the other ADCs.

Anivia has incredibly long range, and very powerful AoE denial abilities that zone you away from things. Aside from her crippling mana, she tends to be a fairly safe champion to play once she gets rolling.

Galio, a heavy duty tank with a movement speed boost, but is in a pretty bad spot because he doesn't have a hard engage or disengage.

Fiddle......is a jungler and is (for the most part) in a fine spot.....he is NOTHING, and I do mean NOTHING like rek'sai, completely different playstyle.

Heimer....he has his turrets for his defense. If he was given a hard disengage he would be ungodly broken.

Darius............is currently viewed as being in a terrible spot and is slated for a rework (no one knows when its happening, only that it will be happening at some point).

Rek's tunnels aren't the problem really, not when compared to the REST of the roster (and more importantly, the TOP LANE CHAMPIONS). The real problem are her base damages, which cannot be nerfed without destroying her jungling ability.

Knight Devout1 votes

Same with Jayce. "Oh, so instead of using long range poke withQ you are maxing W for harassing people at 500 range? Seems fun. What a shame we don't like fun.

Now go back to 1400 range and use that empowered Q"

DUDE BRO7 votes

The problem was a targetted 780%(+100% if you use it after an auto) of his total AD over 2 seconds. That's always been a HUGE problem with good jayce players. Except Riot isn't good at forseeing problems when they create champs and only realized it now, over a year later.

Sammystorm1 votes

maybe they want her to be a lane bully but not scale well? depends on what their vision for ehr is.

hashinshin15 votes

{quoted}

maybe they want her to be a lane bully but not scale well? depends on what their vision for ehr is.

A bruiser lane bully that doesn't scale well? Well damn, I don't think I've ever heard of such a concept. We should get riot to make 20-30 more of those!

Dan Dragonsword2 votes

{quoted}

A bruiser lane bully that doesn't scale well? Well damn, I don't think I've ever heard of such a concept. We should get riot to make 20-30 more of those!

OH OH OH HO! let me list some of those!

Pantheon,,Darius,Gnar,Aatrox,GangPlank,Jarvan IV,Renekton,Riven,Rumble,Yorick!

Theres about 1 single champion of that list that is actualy slightly viable can you guess it? oh btw I didn't include ranged bruisers because shame on those.(Spoilers it's the third to last one).

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