I could live with that. But for the love of god can his mistakes be punishable? His ult has a baby cooldown so wasting it to get out alive of a crappy positioning error doesnt do much.
Frankly I'd be ok with it being 180, 145, 110.
Saianna38 votesNah m8 Lees ultimate is fine.
Better nerf Evelynns 3 minute cooldown slow, cause its freaking op.
TheDiff2 votesBefore her slow, she had a stun. Which didn't even last long, I think it was like 1 second.
Wulfy3 voteslol, no. that stun was broken. Please don't talk about things about which you don't know.
Hypochondria91 votesNothing like being 3mins in a game and getting ganked by Eve when she could get into melee range while invisible and stun you.
TheDiff1 votesI do know what i'm talking about? I used to always play her back in the day. Her stun it self wasn't broken or op in any way shape or form. What was broken was the amount of damage she could deal. Her stun lasted about 1- 1.5 seconds.
Saianna1 votesAs Wulfy said, Evelynns stun was very strong. Not just by itself, but old Evelynn dealt much higher damage in less time.
I'm kind of seriously mad at Riot on how generous they are while tossing cool ultimates for every new champion, while Evelynn doesn't have even half of a decent one.
Lee receiver a fking buff on his ultimate. I'll never agree to this bullshit. Never.
PiVoRx2 votesCan people stop derailing topics to point out the problems of other champions? You dont need to compare Lee Sin to others to see that he is bullshit op shit. And this dual-stun-nuke is one of the stuff that needs to be looked at.
Even pre 6 he can just go to enemy jungle and do whatever he wants case he can jump through walls with 2 spells.
Lao Fu the Tiger6 votesJoke <-------
Your head <-----
Saianna1 votesI'm sorry, but you might have misunderstood my post.
By no means I am trying to say that Riot should look at evelynn. Nor should they look at anything other.
My post was made to describe how favouring Riot is when it comes to blind, jumping baldies.
Spicy Rice1 votesOr if someoeb still doesnt get it, he was basically making a "better nerf irelia joke"
Saianna1 votesspot-on observation :)
TotalJerk18 votesI actually read a high elo Lee Sin guide somewhere where it bluntly said "Use Lee Sin's ult every time you gank and it's off cooldown". Full stop. They were basically saying that the cooldown is so low that you shouldn't even bother to preserve it.
Urgonnalearn2day4 votesI actually read a high elo Lee Sin guide somewhere where it bluntly said "Use Lee Sin's ult every time you gank and it's off cooldown". Full stop. They were basically saying that the cooldown is so low that you shouldn't even bother to preserve it.
That's most lvl 6 ults on junglers.
Full stop. Have you taken a basic reading class? (I'm serious here... go read a warwick guide, a shyvanna guide, a malphite guide.... they literally will all say the same thing)
Saianna6 votesIn ww, malp, shyvana ase they have to initiate somehow.
They have to get closer.
In Lee's case? It KICKS THEM AWAY. In other words, it's used as nothing more than a nuke for securing kills.
I really hope
ULRNT2DAY something.
Dar Raksada1 votesIn ww, malp, shyvana ase they have to initiate somehow.
They have to get closer.
In Lee's case? It KICKS THEM AWAY. In other words, it's used as nothing more than a nuke for securing kills.
I really hope
ULRNT2DAY something.
Why not just qqwr to kick them towards your allied laner? The cooldown does feel really low compared to 
though.
Saianna1 votesIn most cases raw damage Lee has along with damage from Top laner is enough for him to go full retard mode. Why would you try some cheeky, fla$hy plays if you can get the same result with obvious "jump with everything you have" method
The point is: Lees R cooldown is silly. That's the best way of describing it. It's utility is just slightly worse than ultimates of Naut/Malp yet he has less than half of their R cooldown. And before hate starts, yes I know Malphite has powerfull ultimate with AOE yadda-yadda. But so has Lee if he kicks his primary target in bunch of other enemies.
SithesisLord1 votesShyvana doesn´t initiate with ult y'know?
Her W is maxed first and people take Exhaust on her for a reason.
Urgonnalearn2day1 votesShyvana doesn´t initiate with ult y'know?
Her W is maxed first and people take Exhaust on her for a reason.
She's usually taken jungle for her scary clear time and people definitely do initiate with her ult... y'know.
If you're implying you only use it for escape or catching people you're not using her at her full effectiveness.
SithesisLord1 votesNot if they take Exhaust, which is what any Shyvana who wants to bother having ANY presence in the game at all takes.
I use it for tower dives. Come up behind them, shove them out of their turret and into my teammate/teammates.
Aezanthya15 votes"lee falls off lategame" is the biggest lie ever.
Dengeden1 votesHis 1v1 potential certainly does. His Q is an execute, kind of bad for an initiation ability, don't you think?
Of course, he can still ult and safeguard people. There's no champion that does absolutely nothing late game.
Photos of Ghosts1 votesEh, 4 second CD with 5 other spells in between + builds AD + has an AS steroid.
The only reason Lee falls off late is that people feel godlike on him and outplay themselves.
Dengeden1 votesThose low CDs and that overloaded kit won't mean anything if the enemy doesn't allow him to use any of it. It's not like early game where hitting Q means he can safely connect it and apply damage (then hit it again). If you acknowledge that other champions get the means to retaliate (vs bruisers) via damage and/or tankiness, you have to acknowledge he falls of late.
Squidsmastah12 votesLee is fine.
But for fuck sake nerf champions no one ever plays.
MeleeNuke9 votes_Lee sin lands q on me. _ Me: Let's bait it out, because I have a team to back me up! Lee sin uses the other q on me Me: Get him, team! Lee sin uses w and escapes Me: FUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Ariel the Cruel4 votesThat's a pretty sad Lee SIn. Should have gone Q->E->Flash->R->Q
Now your half dead, you're BOTH separated from your team, and he still has half a kit to finish the job.
Zarkkast2 votesMore like
_Lee Sin lands q on me. _ Me: Let's bait it out, because I have a team to back me up! _Lee Sin uses the other q on me Lee Sin uses E, procs thunderlord An ally has been slain
Feathermane2 votesThis is how I envisioned this thread:
Lee can keep all his BS mobility and damage. In Riot's opinion, so can Jax.
Verxint2 votesWhile I think Lee Sin is fine right now (and my hopefully soon to be buffed Xin is waiting for him to invade me) I do get really frusturated when I see any champ used in that style. The one where the person just tries constantly and usually fails, but never seems to get punished and therefore keeps aimlessly throwing things at the wall until something sticks
Dengeden1 votesOn the one hand, I agree there's nothing skillful about using your ult and nothing else. On the other hand, I don't want him to become a wet noodle with a "LOOK USE THIS FOR COUNTERPLAY" ability, like pretty much everything else.
So compromise, increase ult CD but reduce it if he kills/damages enemy champion(s) during/after ult?
Divewing12 votesno. He needs a proper damned nerf. The ult is such a stuffed ability, i think it can handle having a proper cooldown.
Also. How in the hell is anything with 2 types of %hp damage, and 200% AD scaling on 1 ability going to ever be a wet noodle
Dengeden1 votesBecause as scary as %health is, it's just numbers. Elise does it too, haven't you ever laughed off her damage? Same thing with 200% AD, as much of a nuke it is early game, he scales horribly with the armor pen items because of his E and W.
Divewing5 votesElise who builds 2 damage items (the same number as most lees, if not less) is actually terrifying for me as a mid main. You don't really se it competitively because she's used for diving and as a stun-bot, not as a damage threat, and while they treat Lee the same, he dead damage anyway
Dengeden1 votesCrud, he knows that every jungler deals damage ... now all we have is a difference of opinion.
Only Play Darius1 votesIt's pretty easy to punish a bad Lee in my experience (and most Lee's I run into are VERY bad)
ZephyrDrake1 votes180 seconds on an ultimate that is not global? sorry but are you drunk?
B6WS TSW991 votesThe first and second ranks of his ultimate cooldowns should be nerfed, the 3rd should stay the same (is 110 the same cd as live ? )
Ulquiorra9951 votesIt's 90/75/60.
It should be used as a tactical move in theory, but in practice there is almost never a bad moment to use it (execute, Q-R-Q as a nuke combo, insect, kicking tank back for AoE knockup/nuke, peel; you name it, Lee's ult does it) - in large part due to it lacking a meaningful cooldown, which in turn means it will be up for next fight.
5050BS1 votesNo Lee is just toxic to the game. You cant go 5 games without seeing him and he has everything a Melee champ wants. The only thing that keeps his win rate down is noobs that start playing him.
Play him for a month and you will start winning most of your matches because you start to know what you are doing.
He is OP and toxic to the game. But there are other champs that are also toxic to the game and riot does not give a S*!t
Slamurai Jack2 votesPlay him for a month and you will start winning most of your matches because you start to know what you are doing.
Then do it. I'm tired of a bunch of noobs claiming Lee Sin is insanely broken but they absolutely refuse to ever play him. So go. Get Diamond playing Lee. He's almost never banned, so it should be easy.
Dominick Destine1 votes[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6zEq8U4m,comment-id=00110000,timestamp=2016-01-28T21:30:36.035+0000)
Get Diamond playing Lee.
I got to Diamond playing against Lee with many characters... he is overpowered and needs nerfs. His scaling is way too high, his defensive stats are also way too high, him being manaless and having low cds is just icing on the massive op bull-cake.
Slamurai Jack1 votesHow does that make any sense whatsoever? "I got to Diamond playing against Lee and therefore he's OP?" Don't troll me bro. I got to Diamond playing against Lee as well, and I love when the enemy team picks him because Lee is a weak champion that's too hard to play and is outscaled too easily. Conversely, I hate when people on my team pick him because he's guaranteed to be worse than another meta jungler unless the Lee is both very good and the enemy team mismanages the early game. You're not special for beating Lee with whatever jungler you choose to pick; you're average. You don't get to feel good about yourself for beating Lee with Sejauni because you're supposed to.
Dominick Destine2 votes[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6zEq8U4m,comment-id=0011000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-29T01:06:54.412+0000)
How does that make any sense whatsoever? "I got to Diamond playing against Lee and therefore he's OP?" Don't troll me bro.
No trolling, obviously. I know Lee extremely well from the opposing side, I've destroyed Lee players many times.
The thing is, the Lee player has to be far worse than me to be defeated... Lee has such a huge margin of error that you would have to be completely new to the game to fail to see.
Lee is a weak champion that's too hard to play and is outscaled too easily.
Uh what? people have run the math many times and it has been proven that Lee scales harder than like 90% of the cast... literally only the hyper scalers like Vayne, Fiora and Nasus cleanly outscale Lee.
What the hell are you even talking about? do not defend a broken character.
Slamurai Jack2 votesHe's bad. Sorry to tell you, but if you're losing to Lee Sin, it's because the person playing him is better than you. The stats don't lie on this one; he's an extremely mediocre champion unless played by the absolute best players of the champion. We don't even know how many Lee games you need to have before you start winning more than 50% of the time because the stats tracking doesn't even go that high. If you're losing this this champion http://imgur.com/BJ5zOM9, you're just getting outplayed. It's really that simple.
And please, don't try to pretend that Lee Sin scales well just because he has high AD ratios. You know who else has really high ratios? Renekton. Leblanc. Pantheon. AP fucking Nunu.
Dominick Destine1 votes[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6zEq8U4m,comment-id=001100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-29T04:20:27.985+0000)
Lee games you need to have before you start winning more than 50% of the time because the stats tracking doesn't even go that high
It has been a statistical fact since statistics have been reviewed that high pick rate champions have deflated win rate. Given that Lee is almost always within top 3 most picked champions, it stands to reason that his win rate will be heavily deflated.
Conversely, low pick rate champions tend to have a higher win rate. This isn't new information, you should already know this. Your argument fails.
Slamurai Jack1 votesI do know this. I don't give a fuck about his playrate, because ultimately it doesn't matter. If even the best Lee Sin players are only winning 47% of the time, then he's a really weak champion. You can deny that all you want. You have literally 0 evidence that Lee Sin is overpowered and I have tons to suggest that he's actually underpowered. Hell, if Lee Sin is OP because of his pick rate, then Lucian and Ezreal must be super duper mega OP because their playrates are even higher and their winrates aren't bad either.
Sorry friend, it doesn't hold up. Ezreal has a 32.5% pickrate, 52% winrate, an average of 52 games played, and his mains win 54% of the time. Lucian has a 40% pickrate, a 50% winrate, an average of 89 games played, and Lucian mains win 51% of the time. Lee Sin has a 31% pickrate, 46% winrate, an average of 116 games played, and his mains win 47% of time. Lee Sin has a lower pickrate, far higher average games played, and far lower winrate overall and by mains than either of these champions. And yet all I see are nerf Lee Sin threads, with the rare nerf Lucian thread and absolutely no nerf Ezreal threads despite him performing the best of the 3 by far. Don't give me this bullshit about popular = OP unless you're going to be consistent about it. I expect to see several Ezreal and Lucian QQ posts by the end of the day. Don't disappoint me.
Dominick Destine1 votes[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6zEq8U4m,comment-id=00110000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-29T17:23:21.726+0000)
You have literally 0 evidence that Lee Sin is overpowered
Fair enough, let's say his presence in LCS and Worlds is a good sign of it.
Don't give me this bullshit about popular = OP
Actually it's more OP = Becomes popular. It's really not that complicated... people will flock to the path of least resistance, in this case Lee is it.
Slamurai Jack1 votesSituational comfort pick when actual top tier junglers aren't available doesn't really scream "OP" to me.
Dominick Destine1 votes[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6zEq8U4m,comment-id=0011000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-29T19:47:24.944+0000)
Situational
'You keep using dat word, I do not tink it means what you tink it means'
Anyway situational denotes that it is a very deliberate pick under specific circumstances, Lee is exactly the opposite of that.
Slamurai Jack1 votesYou're right. In pro play, he's not situational because LCS junglers only pick early game champions. He is, however, always valued below multiple other junglers and is generally only picked when champions like Rek'sai, Elise, Kindred, Nidalee, Graves, etc. are unavailable. Point is, Lee is, and has been a last resort pick for pro junglers except in situations where that particular jungler is exceptionally good at him, such as C9 Rush or OG Amazing. Regardless of how strong or weak Lee is, he's been incredibly popular for ages and provides the early strength that pro teams require, so literally every pro jungler is at least a competent Lee Sin at the very minimum. That's why he sees play. It's the same reason Lucian still saw considerable play last season despite having bottom tier statistics: Every pro adc can play Lucian and he has the skillset you want from an adc in competitive play.
Take away the competitive environment however and both of those champions were very mediocre last season. Lee Sin still is. He fits the skill set pro players want and is thus desirable enough to pick at that level even when weak. But he's garbage in Solo Q and has been since early season 4. His dueling power is a mere shadow of it's former self. He's less mobile than he was before. He's less tanky than he was before. His sustain in the jungle is weaker than it was before. Counterjungling as a whole is far weaker than it was before, lessening one of his greatest strengths. He's not even viable outside of the jungle anymore except as a cheese pick. Actually winning games with Lee is a serious struggle and even Lee players recognize that you play Lee more because he's fun than because he's actually good. I know I don't pick him when I'm going full tryhard mode. If I'm trying my hardest to win, I'm picking Sejuani, Shyvana, or Pantheon. All of those champions are stronger, easier, and more reliable than Lee is. But damn it all, Lee is more fun to play.
I really suggest you try him out for yourself. I know you haven't played him before, or at least haven't played him in years, even in a normal game. You've already shown a willingness to have your mind changed before when we discussed Sejuani. If you're willing to test your assumptions on a champion you already play, then you should be even more willing to test your assumptions about a champion you don't play.