[UNPOPULAR OPINION] There's no good way to say it [BRAVEPOST]

HateDaddy··21 votes·1,694 views

Mages in this game are bullshit.

And what I'm referencing here is the popularity of mages taking over the support role (again). Right now, mages functioning in the support role over actual supports is the norm aside from defensive mages who serve one function: protect allies (think Janna, Soraka and even Nami). You can't even dare play a tank support currently. And when you can play tank tops, there's really no need for it anyway. Which leads me back to mages being bullshit. Why would I pick a defensive utility support when I can pick a mage who can fit in the support role, do the most damage in the game - granted most of it is in lane phase but they still do a colossal fuckton of damage in teamfights - and STILL offer extremely powerful utility that makes them relevant regardless of their score.

For example, Zyra, Brand and Malz support all bring incredibly powerful CC to the table and with the purchase of item 3116, their cc becomes even more obnoxiously strong. Not to mention, it gives them the ability to kill targets either on 1v1s or do considerable aoe damage the enemy team, neither of which can be ignored. And the thing is, this isn't the first time this has happened.

You may recall brand support of last season prior to his rework. You'll recall zilean support, Annie support of the past and Morgana. These are prime examples of champions who once functioned as solo lane mages but are versatile enough to be supports. And quite frankly, unless balanced appropriately (as Annie, Morgana, Zilean, Zyra and Brand) as supports 1st, these champions will force real support oriented champions out of the meta. We thought brand was fixed but we were wrong. Zyra is basically a support now but the rest are still mages first. And the thing is, this is going to continue to happen - mark my words. These champions won't be fixed until they are rebalanced around being supports, which will likely severely weaken them as solo laners. But they'll still have solo lane capacity.

People complain about ADCs and the need for them and that's a valid complaint but in all honesty, adcs only serve one function: damage. And only in one instant have adcs forced other classes out of other lanes, and that was preseason 6 with the marksmen update. And many of them were simply overturned and rebalanced properly. But mages have been doing this forever. Mages force melees out of top lane all the time. For all the bitching about assassins, they really haven't been good as a class since s3 and mages force assassins out of lane simply by being better overall champions who scale better. Survive the rough early levels and watch the assassin become useless as you scale significantly better as a mage. I've already explained mage she forcing supports out and we've even seen instances of mages forcing tanks/bruisers out of the jungle (granted, these are very isolated incidents the same as ziggs forcing ADCs out of bot).

But what other class does this? No other class universally fucks every lane the way mages do. And it's because mages have too much going for them. They have insane utility, typically safety from long range and absurd damage with very overstated weaknesses that aren't significantly as damning as made about to be, immobility being the biggest example. But who cares about immobility? You can clear waves from fog of far with a significant amount of mages, so positioning easily takes care of that.

Mages need to be seriously looked out again and have their versatility toned down. You can tell have the best of 2/3 worlds (damage and utility) with the third being durability (and even then you have itemization that hardcore double dips in defense/offense). Until that happens, you're going to keep seeing mages shit on everything and then have to be rebalanced accordingly, which isn't fun for the mage player who's champion eventually gets significant changes they don't want or the people's playing against it.

Okay, drown me in your mage bias downvotes

41 Comments

SwiftKitten886 votes

lol out of all the things that are op right now... you're choosing mages...

lets not talk about Camille, lets ignore the game-breaking Riven bug, hell we dont even care about the 54% Shaco orVi winrate, or how OP champs likeMaokai or Nautilus are in competitive right now...

whats REALLY busted... is item 3116 on mages...

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Arya Riven5 votes

Mage players never think there are any problems with mages.

Penns1 votes

Almost as scum as tank mains amirite hehe ecks dee

Big Lincoln4 votes

juggernaut mains are the only people who will be honest tbh

we are the ubermensch tbh

Penns1 votes

After assassin mains tho tbh

Big Lincoln3 votes

only fizz mains tbh

Kat and kha scums won't admit their champs are op

DrCyanide13 votes

I think that could be said for players of any class though.

As a mage main, I generally want my opponents to behave like mages, chucking spells at one another with who ever dodges worse or doesn't manage their mana properly losing is something I enjoy. I assume Assassin mains prefer a play style where whoever gets the jump on the other guy first wins. Tank players enjoy long, drawn out fights where a victory is determined over time not in the blink of an eye.

I will say Bot Lane is in a peculiar state right now. I'm not sure if the right solution is to nerf every Mid Lane mage that went support or if it's to buff the alternatives (Support mages and Tank Supports). Both options can have undesirable side effects if not done correctly.

50000000000000002 votes

As a tank player I can definitely confirm that.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

I never thought of it like that, but I absolutely agree. I am a mage main and I have fun flinging skillshots at enemies and managing mana (sidenote: that's probably why I love ARAM).

Bot lane is weird for more reasons than just mage supports. Early 3 or 4 man ganks, first blood tower, and autofilled supports/ADCs have a lot to do with it. And there are still some pretty viable utility supports, like Janna and Nami.

SwiftKitten881 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arya Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6ncTvdJc,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-01-23T19:15:22.090+0000)

Mage players never think there are any problems with mages.

just fyi... Nidalee hasn't been a mage since patch 4.9.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

lol out of all the things that are op right now... you're choosing mages...

lets not talk about Camille, lets ignore the game-breaking Riven bug, hell we dont even care about the 54% Shaco orVi winrate, or how OP champs likeMaokai or Nautilus are in competitive right now...

whats REALLY busted... is item 3116 on mages...

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Nautilus and Maokai functioning in top lane is normal, regardless of whether they are individually OP or not. Vi and Shaco functioning in the jungle is normal, regardless of whether they are OP or not. Camille is still slightly overturned and in all probability will remain a jungler. That will be her norm. You know what's not normal? Malzahar fucking jungle up, then fucking top lane up, then fucking mid lane up and now fucking bot lane up. You know what's not normal? Brand fucking mid lane up and still fucking top lane up.

When nautilus support was OP, it got nerfed accordingly. And i fucking hate nautilus, but he can't really function well in support anymore. Brand was supposed to be weakened in this sense, yet he still does it. Why? Because brand still has a two second stun at rank 1. Because brand innately does a fuck ton of damage, both single target and aoe. Because brand can do it from long range. This is just one example and no other class has champions that do all of this while being in the most gold starved position of the game.

SwiftKitten881 votes

{quoted}

Nautilus and Maokai functioning in top lane is normal, regardless of whether they are individually OP or not. Vi and Shaco functioning in the jungle is normal, regardless of whether they are OP or not. Camille is still slightly overturned and in all probability will remain a jungler. That will be her norm. You know what's not normal? Malzahar fucking jungle up, then fucking top lane up, then fucking mid lane up and now fucking bot lane up. You know what's not normal? Brand fucking mid lane up and still fucking top lane up.

When nautilus support was OP, it got nerfed accordingly. And i fucking hate nautilus, but he can't really function well in support anymore. Brand was supposed to be weakened in this sense, yet he still does it. Why? Because brand still has a two second stun at rank 1. Because brand innately does a fuck ton of damage, both single target and aoe. Because brand can do it from long range. This is just one example and no other class has champions that do all of this while being in the most gold starved position of the game.

i said in competitive , didnt they they where an ACTUAL issue.. very rarely are champs in competitive a good indicator of balance at any skill. in fact NONE of that champ i listed except the bug on Riven are an ACTUAL issue. well not that they need to be immediately addressed at least.

and trust me... as a nid main.. i KNOW why "balancing around the top 50 players on the planet" is a BAD IDEA.

you CAN'T balance the game based on the assumption that players have played as 5 together 100 times and have voice chat with zero delay.

not without completely destroying the game for the other 99.9984% of players

what im saying is that even the things that ARN'T really issues (or smaller issue ).. are STILL a bigger than something this is not an issue in any way shape or form.

Mages are fine, in fact the biggest issue right now imo, are tanks. tanks just do too much damage overall.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

i said in competitive , didnt they they where an ACTUAL issue.. very rarely are champs in competitive a good indicator of balance at any skill. in fact NONE of that champ i listed except the bug on Riven are an ACTUAL issue. well not that they need to be immediately addressed at least.

and trust me... as a nid main.. i KNOW why "balancing around the top 50 players on the planet" is a BAD IDEA.

you CAN'T balance the game based on the assumption that players have played as 5 together 100 times and have voice chat with zero delay.

not without completely destroying the game for the other 99.9984% of players

what im saying is that even the things that ARN'T really issues (or smaller issue ).. are STILL a bigger than something this is not an issue in any way shape or form.

Mages are fine, in fact the biggest issue right now imo, are tanks. tanks just do too much damage overall.

Balancing around competitive is fine. The game should be balanced around the highest level to assure highest quality. Nowhere in my post did I comment about what level of play Riot balances around, so I'm not sure why you even brought it up. But you're wrong, Riot should balance around pro play/challenger/masters/diamond 1 and maybe down to mid play or so since the trickle effect of what's popular in challenger/masters reaches mid plat pretty quickly. And this trickle down effect represents an usually accurate state of balance the game is currently in. However, this rarely trickles down past gold and by the time it does, it's either already been rebalanced or is in the process of so they've moved into new broken shit in high elo.

Another reason is as I stated, it ensures the highest quality of play to balance around the highest level of play. If we balanced around low elo, pub stompers would be eliminated from the game, bad mechanics and strategic approach and application would be thrown to the waste side and you'd have a game that functions pretty similarly to rock/paper/scissors. Nothing about the former or the latter are good.

Joseraph1 votes

"Game-breaking Riven bug" Get this stale meme off my boards

GULAG 4 U1 votes

If riven's bug was actually gamebreaking then her winrate would spike by a fuckton.

no. that's not what happened. And even Adrian Riven who's in the top 10 na challenger I believe says that the bug is not even abusable. And it's not unique to riven too. that's just bullshit you're saying here.

Sahn Uzal6 votes

This thread won't reach hot. Because the raw weight of HateDaddy's balls will be pulling it down.

PureSilvrr6 votes

I just want them to take my malz out of botlane ;-;

revert6.23changes also pls

Craft Zeppelin3 votes

{quoted}

I just want them to take my malz out of botlane ;-;

revert6.23changes also pls

As a malz main , I totally agree. like infinite crystal sceptre is cool. but its like man something beyond AIDS.

Danjeng1 votes

Space AIDS.

Eedat3 votes

You forgot Lulu :^)

Her solo lane had to be gutted so she could​ function as a support

Sire Hippington3 votes

And yet the winrate charts are still topped by the traditional supports with Zyra beeing the only mage that has an above 50% winrate as support in plat+(http://euw.op.gg/champion/statistics) In terms of pickrate, yes Zyra and Malz are high, but nothing comapred to janna or thresh. Not saying mages aren't somewhat busted overall, but 'traditional' supports still do perfectly well, and with the exeption of a few mages with huge base damages and lane harras, mages genreally don't do to much as support. Also, comparing the utillity of a brand or malzahr with a enchanter like nami or janna quickly shows that their utillity is really on the low side. Zyra is the exeption.

And if damagecreep was finally adressed, (most)mages would be less problematic as they still depend on CDs and usually want to catch someone with cc and then burst them down. if that fails, they are free food for the next few secs till their rotation is back up. With less overall damage, the lack of sustained damage would actually be a noticeable weakness on mages again.

HateDaddy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Cingulum,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6ncTvdJc,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2017-01-23T21:33:45.939+0000)

And yet the winrate charts are still topped by the traditional supports with Zyra beeing the only mage that has an above 50% winrate as support in plat+(http://euw.op.gg/champion/statistics) In terms of pickrate, yes Zyra and Malz are high, but nothing comapred to janna or thresh. Not saying mages aren't somewhat busted overall, but 'traditional' supports still do perfectly well, and with the exeption of a few mages with huge base damages and lane harras, mages genreally don't do to much as support. Also, comparing the utillity of a brand or malzahr with a enchanter like nami or janna quickly shows that their utillity is really on the low side. Zyra is the exeption.

And if damagecreep was finally adressed, (most)mages would be less problematic as they still depend on CDs and usually want to catch someone with cc and then burst them down. if that fails, they are free food for the next few secs till their rotation is back up. With less overall damage, the lack of sustained damage would actually be a noticeable weakness on mages again.

My point isn't about them winning games, it's about them being outright oppressive to other classes. I specifically listed Janna as an exception because she's pretty silly as a champion in her own right, this probably applies to Thresh, too. But mage supports isn't necessarily an indication of supports being weak/strong, it's an indication of a trend that always continues.

You have to ask yourself, and try to eliminate any personal bias if it applies, if you're a mid player and main brand, do you want him to be rebalanced as a support? Same applies to Malz. It's not only about playing against them and the negative experience, it's ultimately a champion being significantly changed because they can function in a role in a manner in which they probably shouldn't be. A perfect example of this is support Brand still chunking your team by pressing R (and potentially killing squishes). Brand stunning you for two seconds is useful no matter what but the fact he can have this plus top damage charts without much damage is a prettt big balance issue. Eventually this likely leads to Brand having base stats touched but ratios buffed but this hurts solo lane Brand pretty hard since most mages rely on base stats in the early-mid phases of the game.

I'm not even implying I have the right answer but currently, mages going bot and forcing other supports out has been a trend since season 3 and it seems to happen every season. And a big reason why is what I mentioned I the OP, mages have too much versatility between utility and damage.

Sire Hippington1 votes

If mages aren't to strong as support(which with the exeption of zyra is the case), there is no real need to nerf them. A not that reliable 1.5 sec singletarget stun is not exactly huge utillity that makes brand a valuable asset for his team without damage, and i find it totally fine and even imprtant for strategic diversity if there are supports that focus more on damage than utillity, as long as they are not crowding out other supports, which isn't really the case.

As for them beeing opressive to lane against, have you ever faced them midlane? They are pretty opressive in the early sololane aswell, and many of them, especially brand, feel lackluster with ap which is why they usually go tanky+pen instead. Shifting some power from their early lane(base stats) into their scaleings wouldn't be bad from a sololane perspective aswell. And again, mages hardly ever really crowded out supports, at max zyra crowded out other champs because zyra in her own right is kinda broken, just how S2 Sona dominated the support meta as a single champ. The situations we had and still have is that some mages are amongst the top tier support picks, but so are some supports and tanks, it's called diversity

versatility between utility and damage

People overact on the utillity part. Compareing the utillity of a brand to a Nami or tarik is like compareing Irelia to Poppy or Maokai. Most mages with utillity give something up for it. The main issue is that the currently to high overall damage makes it hard to notice a real difference between 'somewhat high damage' and 'Tons of damage', as 'somewhat high damage' is usually enough to explode squishys allready. Also, take a look at the currently favoured ADC, they all have lots of utillity on top of their high damage. Or at recent releases/reworks, like camille, GP or poppy. Adding alot damage to utillity is a trend for all classes for quite a long time(starting around S5) now. It's not exclusive for mages. Wether this is good or not is a different question.

Ralanr2 votes

Reminds me of the classic magic vs mundane argument for tabletop RPGs. This'll be fun.

Big Lincoln2 votes

the only solution is to give all fighters and juggernauts ranged aoe CC and damage to combat the mage scum in all lanes

league of fighters for 2017

Ben Sharpio1 votes

how about we give all melees a free cleanse? That would be balanced and would help us get past rylais and ghost and flash

Big Lincoln2 votes

melee should have 50% tenacity vs ranged champs

twochain22 votes

Well giving everyone a warding trinket really minimizes the need for sighstone allowing mages to just build full dmg bot lane and laugh.

PPPPPPPPPPPP2702 votes

I feel like the mage support non sense has occurred because of buffs to the support role over the changes of support champions. Support champions barely get changed while their itemization and gold income does. While redemption and locket are bullshit, mage supports provide the best peel and CC death.

Support income either needs to go down or have support items provide more money while being useless for damage for themselves.

LankPants2 votes

IMO there's too many good cheep AP items and too few good expensive AP items. That combined with the fact that Redemption gives any support champ a Soraka ult for a negligible amount of gold leads to any mage with any amount of control being insane. The mages commonly played as supports also have very skewed bases and ratios, their bases are pretty insane and their ratios quite modest, which leads to them exploding in damage with cheep pen items like Liandries, Void and Sorcs.

What needs to be re-evaluated IMO is how cheep certain mage itemisation is as well as the total stats available. Rylai's should have its HP bumped back to 500, it's AP to 80 or 90 and have its cost bumped back into its old range. Void should have its AP bumped by 10 or so and its price up to about 3.2k (it's way too cheep right now). Liandries should be bumped up to the 100 AP range and also have its cost hiked to around 3.7K.

Additionally champs like Zyra and Malz should have their bases and ratios looked at. It's not appropriate for a mage to require 720 AP to double the damage of their core skill. That means the base has been set far too high and the ratio far too low. Mages core skills should always double in power somewhere between around 300 and 500 AP, Zyra's plants are massively out of this line.

Spoofghoul1 votes

immobility you say

item 3285 item 3100

yea i sure like it when something with 10x my range and cc in their kit can just out walk me

But hey i somehow managed to get in their face, or move far enough from them only to get shit on anyway

item 3152

well so far so good i am managing

item 3116

. . .

fuck mages

Jaygo411 votes

I've been saying this for awhile, I completely agree. They are nonsense. They have tools to bully in the early game while also holding steady on a beautiful curve of late game scaling. Base damages are often too high. I personally just don't believe mages belong in bot lane, especially at support. It's absolutely shameful how Zyra and Brand have taken over the support role. They often have the highest dmg in the game with sorc boots and a sightstone. It's so bullshit

StoryDuck1 votes

I will admit it has been quite annoying seeing mages dominate the bot lane lately. I've taken to banning Zyra but seeing Ziggs, Brand, Velkoz, Malzahar all invading bot lane is getting annoying. What happened to the shields, heals, and buffs that used to matter in support? I figured with all the new fancy +% shielding/healing we would start seeing more of that and instead be whining about how OP Soraka is. I've been gravely mistaken but I can't quite figure out why yet. The best I can think of is that Rylai's is too cheap or that the Shield/heal items are not strong enough. Could it be that simple?

Support Bοt1 votes

Welcome in meta of DMG. The whole strategy of League become very simple right now. Deal more dmg than your enemy will do. When teamfights last 3 seconds people are trying to use atleast one rotation before they will die.

2nd Chance1 votes

[UNPOPULAR OPINION] There's no good way to say it [BRAVEPOST]

item 3046 Is busted rn

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=2nd Chance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6ncTvdJc,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2017-01-23T23:22:55.557+0000)

[UNPOPULAR OPINION] There's no good way to say it [BRAVEPOST]

item 3046 Is busted rn

u rite about dat one no need even 4 second ch&nce wow

Camp Top1 votes

I've always found it off putting when I look at the damage graphs and see our support leading in damage over everybody else.

DAMAGE: It is in the nature of Mage champs to deal a ton of damage, they are the aoe specialists after all. However, when their build is rylais, frost queens, redemption, locket, cdr boots, mikaels, something is wrong. Zyra should not deal 50-90k damage on that build, period. Unless she reads her opponents and plays it extremely well, and gets very ahead early, this just shouldn't happen. They don't need to do that though. They can simply drop huge aoe spells with a ton of what I'll call microdamage. You know how Riot always said hidden power is something they disapprove of? Well it's everywhere in these kits. You probably won't notice in the team fight when brands passive or zyras plants literally deal half the damage in the fight. Ok, maybe it's sort of noticeable, but when you are forced to attack the enemy champs and can't retaliate to this damage because it's coming from something you cannot stop, it's a problem.

UTILITY: Here is what makes this specific set of champs work imo. Not only can they top the charts, but they get to immobilize you to boot. You can't say it's fair that the rylais purchase instantly turns these champ into picking machines. How do you escape a Mage who can tag you with repeated slows, alongside the cc within their kit. Rylais is a huge part of the problem in my opinion.

These champions have so many tools, and the tools feed off each other. The slows allow damage application which applies a slow as well. A lot of the damage comes from their application mechanics having massive areas. Zyras plants spawning all over the lane, brand passive explosion covering everyone with his passive, and even malz, who can spread his AIDS across the wave to infect the enemy champ from afar, or his voidlings which are hard to notice in the heat of battle.

I agree with you op

Tails90161 votes

Two things. 1. Zilean stat page says he's a support as his primary role(yes i know he's broken, that's why he was my main champ for a while) and 2.Braum is just flat out broken played right. Passive gets four stacks in a team fight: demolishes any non-tank if your team knows what's going on.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Two things. 1. Zilean stat page says he's a support as his primary role(yes i know he's broken, that's why he was my main champ for a while) and 2.Braum is just flat out broken played right. Passive gets four stacks in a team fight: demolishes any non-tank if your team knows what's going on.

I'm talking about zilean when he used to be a mid laner, this was prior to his rework.

Braum? I hate his passive as much as the next guy but Zyra shits on him lol. And I can't imagine him doing well vs brand or Malz either.

Tails90161 votes

I've never seen a Zyra do anything to me without her team. Of course I only play blind so I don't know how good she really is. But yeah, a Malz or Brand will destroy him.

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