Please, do not buff Kayn, Do not "Ivern" him

Succubús GF·Jul 16, 2017·112 votes·5,068 views

I get kind of frustrated when someone says "Kayn is so weak he needs buffs" No, he is fine. Some tweaks sure but don't over buff him like you did with ivern. He is still very new and honestly in my opinion his kit is already quite loaded. Think about it, 2 PLAYSTYLES. Need a tank? Go rhaast (I think that's how you spell it) And go bruiser while doing % hp damage. Need a semi glass cannon assassin? Go the other form and just one shot. It's kinda nasty really. He is sucha good "diver" - like assassin. Just don't beg rito to buff him and then realize he was never weak and you were just new to the champ and then beg for him to get nerfed into the ground. Thank you

104 Comments

SEKAIJul 16, 201734 votes

Some champs become broken not because they were released, but because they were buffed after their release due to some QQs about that they're supposedly UP. This is also the same with many champs become UP because they were believed to be released OP.

Seriously. Just wait a couple weeks before you judge a new character will ya?

Karn BishopJul 16, 201713 votes

while you might have a point at this point it does seem that assassin form is lacking enough oomph to affect games at all, while rhaast seems to be so strong that it just drowns out what kayn should be, an assassin first.

i don't think he really needs damage on his base skills though, it would be enough if the range of E was increased or the animation cast time was greatly shortened for assassin form. alternatively his ult could use a tweak as i only ever seem to be able to use assassin ult as a oops i need to hide now button.

To be clear i could be wrong about this but to me it feels like assassin kayn has to put in the same amount of work or more as an eve and still not have the payoff needed make a gamebreaking pick, and who knows maybe its just that defensive offensive itemization is so stupidly powerful its just crushing assassin kayn but i have no faith riot will fix that because ADC's are their babys.

edit: i would be interested to see the difference in winrate for rhaast vs kayn because something tells me the assassin form is crushing the win ratio of the champion hard, he really should have separate stats as if he were two different champions on sites like na.op.gg

SpoofghoulJul 17, 20171 votes

what if the ult reset the passive on assassin form

So you can do a second assassination attempt if the first failed and you had to hide inside

Rhai FrostfangJul 17, 20173 votes

It, umm, kinda already does

SpoofghoulJul 17, 20171 votes

Really?

well what do you know, kinda only played rhaast so far ^^ it's more my style, but then with all the additional damage i really do not see the problem with the shadow assassin

i mean you could grab item 3078 item 3053 for some additional bulk, with the double enhanced triforce procs you should be able to get some good damage in

Karn BishopJul 18, 20171 votes

No real assassin has to build most of their kit with tanky hp items like that, also the passive damage is terrible because its post mitigation damage that reduces based on how much armor the enemy has but also does magic damage so it has to go though magic resists as well.

Assassin form needs love right now its a better use of my time to just pick eve, talon, instead because his kit has too many fail scenarios when delving into the shadow even for an assassin.

IcyPepperJul 17, 20171 votes

while rhaast seems to be so strong that it just drowns out what kayn should be, an assassin first.

Isn't that the point if Rhaast wins tho

/jk

IceKingChernobogJul 17, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Some champs become broken not because they were released, but because they were buffed after their release due to some QQs about that they're supposedly UP. This is also the same with many champs become UP because they were believed to be released OP.

Seriously. Just wait a couple weeks before you judge a new character will ya?

TahmKench Ivern Zac (When he got reworked) comes to mind.

5000000000000000Jul 17, 20171 votes

Did Tahm get buffed after release? I thought he was released somewhat overpowered and had to get his base stats nerfed.

IceKingChernobogJul 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Did Tahm get buffed after release? I thought he was released somewhat overpowered and had to get his base stats nerfed.

he did get buffed after release because too many people used him to troll matches and i guess riot thought he was underpowered so they gave him a buff.

WinTheWarOnPantsJul 16, 201721 votes

"OMFG Riot! Zac is so trash now and needs serious buffs. He is completely unviable/unplayable" Ah, those were the days...

loli nukesJul 16, 20177 votes

zac was extremely bad when reworked, they just did serious buffs like flat damage, hp scaling, and doubled the stun of e.

LegendmakerGXJul 16, 20179 votes

{quoted}

"OMFG Riot! is so trash now and needs serious buffs. He is completely unviable/unplayable" Ah, those were the days...

^^^ I remember this I made a post telling cardboard tier to just wait since they were all bitching at him having a extreme low win rate just 3-4 days when he was release, I told those idiots that people don't know how to use him yet so stop bitching about it so fast but I got so much whining from people who were bronze-silver saying he is automatically weak even though he hasn't even had 1 whole week of practice. Worst part is these idiots rarely even play Zac in the past or even his new rework other then 1 game and trust me after 2 games these players think they are Zac player pros.

lolipopevelynnJul 16, 20172 votes

{quoted}

"OMFG Riot! is so trash now and needs serious buffs. He is completely unviable/unplayable" Ah, those were the days...

TO BE FAIR, the community is not entirely to blame. zac DID need buffs, the problem is riot always go overboard with nerfing/buffing something. they dont know what "moderation" is.

WinTheWarOnPantsJul 16, 20172 votes

I don't really think so either. It was just a small group, and they were right at the time. The real problem is that after riot overbuffed him, they moved at a freaking snails pace to put him back in line. I mean it's been 4 patches? and they still haven't dealt with him.

LankPantsJul 17, 20171 votes

It could be worse, he could be Thresh. It took months for Riot to get their arses around to nerfing him then they pulled the bloody nerf off the PBE anyway.

BenParadoxJul 17, 20171 votes

If I remember correctly, they pulled the nerf because they found and are removing a bug that was increasing the duration of Flay's CC.

Flawless FetusJul 18, 20171 votes

To be fair, he was weak. He needed minor buffs. Instead, Rito buffed the shit out of him. Lol. Let's not pretend Zac was strong immediately after his rework.

Itz Rewind TimeJul 16, 201712 votes

If anything, what kayn needs right now is a balance change.

Rhaast is much better in most situations. He can wipe out squishies, he has incredible healing, and he can build 2 or 3 tank items and still be top of the list in damage on his team.

Shadow assassin....I don't see any reason to pick it. I'd rather wait the 4 minutes for Rhaast. His damage isn't as great, and for what, extra mobility? The ability to multi-cast? Even when you take his passive into account, Rhaast can burst an adc down much faster because of his %max HP and knockup.

I feel like lowering some values on Rhaast slightly, and maybe giving Shadow assassin something a little more, maybe 5% missing health damage on his ult?

Of course, Kayn's pretty much brand new, and once people figure out how to fight him, this'll all calm down.

But I do agree. Don't Ivern him. And for the love of Aurelion's stars. Do not Rek'Sai Kayn. Please. A champion being incredibly powerful on release does need a fix. It does not need turning a bruiser/skirmisher into a tank.

PennsJul 16, 20179 votes

Whats good about 2 playstyles tho? Need a tank? Go Zac/Nunu/Cho, need an assassin? Go Kha or even Shaco. Only time I see it being useful is when you first pick I guess.

Succubús GFJul 16, 20173 votes

It's interchangeable in the game though. Fit according to what's needed

AwesomeGuyDjJul 16, 20174 votes

it really isnt though, if you dont have a tank anywhere else your going to go darkin kayn, so you could just pick a normal tank. And shadow form, well, is just horrible.

TheAustinWormJul 16, 20175 votes

The problem is that, "Shadow Assassin" as the name says, should be an assassin. But at the moment he just doesn't deal the damage to actually be viable as one. He's pretty much a handicapped Zed or talon.

Communist ToastJul 16, 20174 votes

Kayn's Assassin mode isn't an assassin though. and his tank isn't that much of a tank either.

Darkin does better tank and damage since he gets %s damage and heals. only reason I would ever go Shadow is just for the quests (which I finally finished).

but either way his damage isn't a burst of an assassin, it's always a long run out thing

AwesomeGuyDjJul 16, 20172 votes

Darkin isnt meant to be a tank, its meant to be a tankish juggernaut type of champ. (also late game if you hit both his q instances with DD and spirit visage you heal like half hp :P)

Communist ToastJul 16, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Darkin isnt meant to be a tank, its meant to be a tankish juggernaut type of champ. (also late game if you hit both his q instances with DD and spirit visage you heal like half hp :P)

That's exactly what I was saying kind of. if you want tank, be Darkin, if you want damage, be Darkin. because he fits both the roles better than Shadow

AwesomeGuyDjJul 16, 20173 votes

yeah. Mainly because shadow assasins passive is useless, because its first reduced by armor (since its post mitigation) THEN its also reduced by MR since its magic damage.

loli nukesJul 16, 20172 votes

biggest weakness of assassin is that the ult is lacking the damage to be in with the assassin pattern. Either assassin becomes too strong because passive w q one shots or too weak because it doesnt. Give the ult a little more burst and he will be a fine assassin, but i think touching w and q could cause him to be too unhealthy

ThernadadJul 16, 20174 votes

He does need a little buff

PhifeJul 16, 20174 votes

No, Kayn needs # buffs to his ultimate in SA and pre transformation.

Thats it.

lolipopevelynnJul 16, 20173 votes

you guys forget th at he has been on PBE for 2 weeks prior tot his live launch. they usually dont do significant changes to a champion on PBE, only small number tweeks. people who have been play testing him for 2 weeks and then another week on live (2 and a half to 3 weeks total) know that the champion needs significant buffs or not. the champion has had plenty of play testing time to make balance judging on him.

and shadow kayne is CLEARLY weaker than rhaast. btw, if ANYONE thinkns shadow form kayne can actually "1 shot" someone you are out of your god damn mind. the only thing he can 1 shot is the minion backline. that champ takes several rotations to kill someone despite being an "assassin". thats probally why his Q CD is so low.

OleandervineJul 16, 20171 votes

He's not clearly weaker. There hasn't been enough time to make that determination yet.

loli nukesJul 16, 20172 votes

of course there has, intelligent players and those of high elos can tell a champ in pretty much 2-3 games, maybe not every little detail, but the general feel of the champ.

loli nukesJul 16, 20173 votes

The issue you're complaining about is a fear with every single balance change in the game, i personally as a jungle main and a lover of kayn feel he is too weak. But what happened to ivern was not just buffs, but serious buffs to supp itemization that heavily favored ivern. Zac on the other hand got 2 huge buffs at the same time, as well as flat damage. The issue isn't not to buff but buff correctly. I do believe kayn is weak, people thought so on pbe, and he feels not that good in game, unless favorable situations line up. But kayn doesnt need flat damage increases or anything like that. I'd prefer letting him choose his forms no matter what champs he damages, with an increase in the damage needed to do so. This will allow him to gank every lane and use his forms as a complete response to the game and not ignore lanes cause they r melee/ranged. Also is ult feels weak in base and assassin form. I think these 2 changes r small enough to make him better but not busted

The Yetii RiderJul 16, 20173 votes

The problem with Ivern was that he was balanced around the Season 7 jungle but was released during Season 6.

When Ivern was released, he WAS weak. Absolutely, terribly weak.

If the jungle had stayed the same, Ivern would have been trash no matter how you sliced it. His clear speed was so incredibly bad.

Riot changed the jungle. Made everyone's clear speed incredibly bad. Now Ivern's weaknesses are gone but the buffs he got remained.

DurzakaJul 16, 20172 votes

Need a semi glass cannon assassin? Go the other form and just one shot.

LOL

Yeah. Good luck doing that as Shadow Assassin.

Ivern and IreliaJul 16, 20172 votes

This.

kayn is exactly how ivern was on release. He is not weak right now. He's just new.

the weeabooJul 17, 20172 votes

I'm M6, so not exactly "New" at Kayn. But he is definitely not even close to being on Ivern's level.

Why Ivern is strong:

Ivern has instant and safe counterjungling
Ivern has a shit ton of utility packed into his level 3 alone
Ivern is very good at ganking
Ivern has crazy good objective control with his bushes
Ivern is relevant the entire game
Ivern has a shield, a teamwide dash, damage, a knockup, a root, and a shieldable meatshield at his disposal.
Ivern can easily escape from or just straight up 1v1 other junglers (provided he has daisy)
Ivern has a support's (CHEAP) itemization on a jungler's budget which means he spikes quickly and easily

Issues with Kayn:

One of, if not the worst, dueling potential of any jungler. Run into the enemy jungler and you're basically dead.
Next to no utility until at least 12 minutes in if you're proactive at ganking
Fairly bad ganks
an ult with next no damage until you transform
SA has a way in, but no way out (i.e zero real teamfight potential)
SA requires taking on ranged opponents, no easy task with ADCs and peel/shield supports like Lulu and Janna being meta rn
SA requires at least 3 items to be truly effective
Needs to discriminate with his ganks in order to get Darkin or SA, and if you get the wrong one you;re going to be in a world of hurt
Darkin will get destroyed if he is focused with CC in the slightest
Ulting doesn't really allow for any escape potential since if moves with enemies, can only really be used to avoid being focused for a bit.
You can't just transform to either one in the middle of a game. You have to plan which one and set up your masteries and build accordingly.

Things Kayn has going for him:

Darkin is a crazy good frontline and spikes with 2 items
Darkin is really good at shredding tanks
Unique and unexpected ganking paths
Up to 2.5 seconds of invulnerability (albiet the enemy can control where you go)
Huge healing with ult
Dive potential
Crazy fast clears
Able to steal objectives easily
Fantastic roaming speed
Darkin transitions into lategame well

So I'm not saying Kayn is weak by any means. He has clear strengths and weaknesses. However his Shadow Assassin form needs a bit of tweaking because it's really just far weaker and takes way longer to spike than it's counterpart, Darkin. Darkin is for carrying games, SA is for having fun. It would also be nice to see some small buffs to his early game dueling power so he doesn't get destroyed by every other jungler. Rhaast is absolutely 100% fine. It's the rest needs some changes.

Ideas I propose:

Giving Q a bit more damage, and reducing the bonus monster damage so his clear speed is the same
Taking the bonus cast range of of SA's ult, and giving it some missing health damage + extra range when coming OUT of it so that he can use it to escape
Giving SA some extra AD scalings.

Also what do you mean by "semi glass cannon". SA Kayn is absolutely a Glass Cannon.

Succubús GFJul 17, 20171 votes

black cleaver gives him more of a tankier feel therefore, semi- glass, His shadow assassin isn't bad and his dueling isn't bad either, Don't expect an assassin to outduel a duelist. Cant tell you how many times ive barely won/lost a duel to kayn as Diana on equal footing

the weeabooJul 17, 20171 votes

Diana isn't exactly the strongest at the moment either... and Diana is an assassin too?

loli nukesJul 17, 20171 votes

i want to note that your weaknesses have some gameplay issues, not just weaknesses, buffs needed, etc. but actual gameplay issues like ignoring lanes. Maybe kayn doesnt need huge buffs but more tweaks to base kayn and the form system, and maybe a nerf to darkin and a buff to SA but mostly changes, not just straight buffs/nerfs.

Pan KominJul 18, 20171 votes

100% agree with you I have the same feelings after playing several ranked as Kayn

chipndip1Jul 17, 20172 votes

Kayn kinda sucks though...

AirKingNeoJul 17, 20171 votes

Kayn's assassin mode and his ultimate damage in base/assassin form is super fucking weak. His base HP is also low.

Seriously, up his assassin's passive damage, his/assassin ult damage by like +50 or +75 (all ranks), and a little more base Hp (Why is it Mundo tier?) and he'll be fine.

OllerusJul 17, 20171 votes

Kayn is actually crazy strong when played properly atm, I hope they don't buff him because he's basically new Zac waiting to happen again.

Trap A FemboyJul 18, 20171 votes

I think rakan maybe got one change and that was to fix something that wasn't working with items and his shield. I don't hear that many people now cry out he needed to be buffed or dropped down a bit, and still going strong with hardly any deaths. Does he still need a buff? The only thing I can think of with kayn, ever so slightly more damage.

I'll certainly say, if built right, he's so tanky I don't think damage is much of a problem. He pairs off well with Rakan to say the least. :)

WinBoatJul 18, 20171 votes

Hard to say if Kayn is good or not. I played against him, crushed him multiple times with Skarner, but hey I'm a Silver scrub at the moment moving up to Diamond if there is enough time left.

crzymdscntstJul 18, 20171 votes

Rhaast is really just too much better than SA.

I think it's a blatant issue that one simply is a clear design overload. Also I feel like "Rhaast % of current health, SA % of missing health" would be a good way of looking at the two if Riot was to think about changing anything.

Here's what I think he needs: Passive: Gut the SA magic damage, give him almost literally anything else. He's not a champ you want Magic Pen on or can really itemize for, so converting his dps typing forcibly seems to be coming up with a negative result when that form scales better off lethality items. He's not bursting enough as SA until he's snowballed, so maybe a passive that synergizes with doing that.

R: SA-form Give him a slightly larger distance traveled out of an enemy so that the direction is meaningful.

Maybe not the smallest changes, but I could see both being a good change.

JesuszillaJul 18, 20171 votes

Buff Shadow Assassin, completely redo the passive meter to make it 100x easier to see and understand, possibly slightly rework the mechanic for choosing the form. That's my main complaints. Right now Shadow doesn't do nearly enough to make it a choice over Darkin, as Darkin does more than enough damage while being tankier. And the meter just sucks. Nothing about it feels fun, and the tiny circle is impossible to understand effectively.