i can't help but feel like base stats aren't distributed fairly

Moody P··69 votes·19,680 views

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Irelia

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Volibear

Comparing raw kits, Irelia has:

  • Fantastic, conditional in-fight dash mobility, conditional escape, strong answer to ranged harass
  • Passable wave clear/wave push without Tiamat
  • An innate heal for 20% total AD that's available as often as her Q is
  • AD scaling magic on-hit buff (passive) that is active for as long as she's fighting champions or resetting with spells on non-champions. Also does triple damage to shields
  • skillshot stun with great reach, giving her massive threat range
  • skillshot slow/disarm field with great reach, giving her massive threat range
  • 40% damage reduction for 1.5 seconds + a skillshot nuke

Volibear has:

  • Movement speed that's halved when not approaching enemies; poor escape, no answer to ranged harass. Has a displacement flip that puts opponents behind him.
  • Nonexistent wave clear pre-Tiamat
  • An innate heal for 30% max HP over 6 seconds that's available once every 2 minutes
  • AP scaling on-hit buff on his ultimate that is active for 12 seconds
  • No AD scaling despite being primarily AA based
  • HP scaling execute that does physical damage, on a static 18s cooldown per rank, available after 3 right clicks. Also grants up to 60% attack speed after 3 hits.
  • A tiny displacement with a 3 second slow.

The disparity in raw kit power is obvious. Is this made up for in base stat numbers? Let's see what Volibear has over Irelia in exchange for his highly limited kit, using the level 1 and level 18 stats.

  • 4.5-21.5 more HP
  • 0.5-4.9 less HP regen
  • 80-80 less mana
  • 0.1-2.5 less mana regen
  • 75 less auto attack range
  • 5 more AD level 1, 7 AD less at level 18
  • 0.002% more base attack speed with 2.9% higher growth by 18
  • 1-9.5 more armor
  • 0.1 more magic resist
  • 10 more movement speed (based 5 MS nerf)

Base stats should not be remotely as identical as they end up being across classes. This is absolute nonsense; champions who have fewer outplay tools or fewer answers to the myriad of things that the rest of the roster is able to throw their way should have at least superior base stats to be able to weather the storm.

If you want to compare Volibear to a more recent juggernaut design since that's a "fairer" comparison, then you can look at Urgot for an even sadder experience.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Urgot

Urgot has great poke, a monstrous execute that turns into an AOE CC (also long ranged) and does not factor resists into the equation at all, a massive shield that becomes borderline spammable, % damage, also has a flip on a spell that lets Urgot counter displacements with a delayed dash. In return, Volibear gets less HP at all points of the game, less AD by level 18, 17 less armor, 285 less mana, 175 less basic attack range, better base AS, identical MR, and 15 more movement speed.

What a sad champion.

98 Comments

SwiftKitten8817 votes

voli isnt the issue... the other 2 are... [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Cats Are Food6 votes

The thing that I have noticed is that people have a tendency to fear the past renditions of various things more than they seek balance. Volibear upon release, like most things, and again for a brief while for Cinderhulk was a devastating force of nature. Many players, many of them who talk on the boards as well, never actually EXPERIENCED this themselves... but they fear the rumor non-the-less. You can see this in countless conversations concerning many, many old items, champions, etc. My prime example is Atma's Impaler (even the new version in Nexus Blitz, which lacking the crit is a beautiful item for juggernauts).

The palpable fear of what WAS can be seen in multiple ways concerning balance discussions on the boards. Perhaps... just maybe... if you gave Volibear more stats he will become the behemoth of old!

The sad thing is that it's not true, and many champions aren't viable any more for numerous reasons. In the case of Volibear, you pointed out quite a solid one. The reasons he would likely not become the monstrosity that he was are fairly simple:

  • Mobility, especially extreme mobility, was a rarity when he was released. Dashes, blinks, warps, and stealths are in vastly greater supply now... his MS boost WAS a chase tool... now most things just blip away from him.

  • His horrendous bite admittedly is on par with how hard most juggernauts hit. Let's be honest. Are you more afraid of a Voli-Bite... or a Jax jumping on your head? Atleast you can kite Volibear. The empowered leap of a Jax will cripple you, so will the opening salvo of numerous champions who have GUARANTEED gap closes.

  • He's not exactly as hard to kill as Mundo, Maokai, etc. They do more damage than he does, while having more survivability.

  • His ult is, now, a joke. Statikk Shiv was originally an item more or less to bounce with his ult. There are entire dev notes on it that are archived. They had even tried to help him itemize... dunno where that went.


So numerous champions, both new and remade, have kits that he cannot compete with. The only way to make him compete is to buff his stats, or to rework him. Anyone name a truly good rework? Maybe Galio? Who also does more damage than he does, chases better, and is harder to kite to oblivion.

But... you know... Volibear was a BEAST.

Beast Brawler2 votes

Honestly the only truly good reworks I think were Poppy, Warwick, and Sion.

Cats Are Food1 votes

I like Sion... not sure about Poppy. To be fair I rather liked the little twit.

The new WW isn't bad, but he went from a high damaging face-pouncer to a tank that's a high damaging face pouncer.

Beast Brawler1 votes

Honestly my only issues with new Warwick is the W feeling kinda buggy and clunky and the fact that it's no longer as effective to build full lifesteal.

Saevum5 votes

The problem of buffing Voli is that he becomes a lane bully, but then again, recent reworks for the Juggernaut pool already have lane bullies.

Now trying to compare irelia rework with good ol' Voli its no wonders we are gonna see some major disturbing facts as Ability costs, sustain, scaling, etc.

Moody P28 votes

Volibear isn't a lane bully. He has shit wave control, horrible sustain, no defense, piss weak dueling pre-6 and any time his ult is down, mediocre damage outside of W's burst and which falls off as soon as the enemy starts investing in armor. As far as laning interactions go, Volibear is almost only good for cheesing people who don't respect his level 4 and level 6 power spikes unless he can bait you into getting flung under turret.

A lot of people will tell you that Voli is a stat check which is really funny considering that he outright loses almost any stat check in the game on account of how limited he really is.

Z3Sleeper14 votes

Being a statcheck champ doesn’t necessarily mean they are a good statcheck champ lol.

Voli’s E having knockback removes a little of his pure statchecky nature, but he is most definitely a barebones statchecker in solo situations.

His solo laning is pretty much determined by “can I successfully statcheck him if I run up and flip him?”

SpiritOfOdysseus4 votes

Regarding your last sentence:

THAT is what laning is all about, "statchecking" regardless of top/bot/mid. If youre playing Volibear into Quinn, you cannot farm normally as quinn harasses you- ranged vs melee is one sided statchecking. If it's Orianna into Zed, there will be statchecking just like any lane.

The key here is that Volibear must get within range to compete with anybody. It's not that Volibear Is special case because every melee without mobility has this handicap and should be compensated with higher base stats/lower cds/etc. He is not compensated for his handicap.

Z3Sleeper4 votes

Meant regarding voli vs melee. Voli vs ranged is “hurt me plenty”.

Also the term statchecking is generally defined by persons here to be when 2 champions are dueling and their skills either don’t allow for much skilled play or their skills are pretty straightforward stat or basic attack enhancements.

Thus, ranged vs melee is never a statcheck unless the ranged champion is standing completely still and testing if they can simply outstat their melee opponent.

Also melee vs ranged is nowhere near what this thread is about.

Edit: "Rangecheck" would be more fitting

nm10101 votes

Orianna vs Zed is possibly the least stat check-y lane in the entire game post level 3. Whoever lands/dodges more skills wins, there is almost 0 stat checking unless one of them gets obscenely fed.

SociaI Justice5 votes

and yet voli absolutely destroys irelia and many other top laners, we have talked about this before and the main problem with voli is that there's no getting away from him, if his stronger than you in a straight up fight and he gets to melee range of you you just die. i have actually gotten in some dia elo voli top games recently though with a surprisingly positive win ratio so maybe the buffs he will get soon will buff him into viability in top lane, definitely not jungle though.

Moody P17 votes

voli destroys sloppy players, his performances against irelia (and most top laners) doesn't particularly stand out and there's not really enough sample size to argue either way. I've been hovering low-mid dia elo for a bit and the irelias here are really easy to abuse because they don't respect voli. i'm 90% convinced that my voli success ATM is entirely because people don't even know that E can stuff dashes. this sudden riven resurgence in my games has worked really well for me for that reason

however he has been resurfacing in high elo master/chally as a support in KR and EUW which I think is very interesting

Moon Mom2 votes

"voli destroys sloppy players" no. He's a stat check. The champ i main does the same thing (Diana) hense why they're useless in high elo even when played by OTPs.

Moody P15 votes

stat check doesn't and has never meant "useless in high elo" or else marksmen, tanks and enchanters would never have been the menaces they've been in the past. voli will usually outright lose most stat checks vs other fighters and duelists unless he's already gotten ahead of you.

volibear and diana suck in high elo because their kits and the numbers on it are awful

GigglesO7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6ebiAgy3,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-31T05:04:49.328+0000)

stat check doesn't and has never meant "useless in high elo" or else marksmen

People forget that marksmen are mostly all stat check champions, and thats part of the large issue with trying to balance them.

Most adc mains think they should win just because they are ranged and know how to right click.

bluegolisano4 votes

Clearly doublelift knows more than most ADCs then, since he's finally figured out the F and D keys for summoner's.

Kappa

saltran1 votes

But tanks were not picked by their stat check, that's exactly why a champ like Ornn was really strong on release but even when they nerfed his numbers and removed the unstoppeable from W he was still seeing play on pro play because what is broken is his engage with ultimate and that has nothing to do with stat checking.

Moody P2 votes

That's my point, man. They have actual good kits that do stuff that make them valuable. Volibear CAN be good in high elo but that usually requires a specific state of the game where his numbers are good, but his kit on its own is very low value.

Sewer Side3 votes

[deleted]

Moody P4 votes

the bias of actually playing Volibear and knowing what I'm talking about? you're welcome to contest any of my points

chipndip14 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sewer Side,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6ebiAgy3,comment-id=000200000002,timestamp=2018-12-31T07:50:29.976+0000)

Man your bias is really apparent and disgusting here

...but that entire post is entirely correct. The second these Rivens or Irelias know about the E is the minute Voli's gonna get dunked on in lane.

Minimac20002 votes

[{quoted}](name=SociaI Justice,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6ebiAgy3,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-12-31T04:34:16.216+0000)

and yet voli absolutely destroys irelia and many other top laners, we have talked about this before and the main problem with voli is that there's no getting away from him, if his stronger than you in a straight up fight and he gets to melee range of you you just die. i have actually gotten in some dia elo voli top games recently though with a surprisingly positive win ratio so maybe the buffs he will get soon will buff him into viability in top lane, definitely not jungle though.

? Voli runs up q's Irelia dashes away to minion, voli walks up slowly and maybe e's definitely doesn't get w off. They may both flash. Volibear still won't touch irelia he also has actual cooldowns and this is assuming the irelia whiffed her e bc the hitbox is so broken ;)

SociaI Justice2 votes

if irelia can dash away from you while you have e up you aren't very good at volibear.

Minimac20001 votes

[{quoted}](name=SociaI Justice,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6ebiAgy3,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2019-01-02T00:18:52.099+0000)

if irelia can dash away from you while you have e up you aren't very good at volibear.

If you get in e range while you have q up, you aren't a very good irelia

SociaI Justice1 votes

wat, so do you just like never farm or what when you're a good irelia?

TheSingularity4 votes

A good example is seeing where tanks sacrifice stats for their kits, where many other champions do not. Eg zac/mundo trade health regen for sustain passives. Shield tanks sacrifice health for the most part

Yets42401 votes

Only tanks are balanced. Which is why they are unviable outside of competitive play, and have been for a year+ now. Far too many other overloaded, overpowered sustained burst champions exist, all 100-0ing each other whenever they get in range for balanced champions to see play.

Rafatinoni3 votes

And yet Volibear has a higher winrate than Irelia at any rank

ArtumisPrime5 votes

Yes. Volibear's <2% pickrate is going to equate to a higher overall winrate, because only the people who main him play him.

Irelia has a 17% pickrate and a 40% banrate with only 2% less winrate than Volibear according to League of Graphs.

This is a pretty basic concept.

Moody P7 votes

"And yet" people actually play and ban Irelia at any ELO that matters where Volibear remains completely invisible with the lowest pick rate in the game

Win rate is not a relevant stat.

Lovelle3 votes

Trundle is kind of in the same boat (statistically I think he might even be worse than Voli), and since everyone shreds tanks/bruisers now, his pillar is all he has going for him, and Riot just nerfed both the slow and cooldown for it. They also recently nerfed Tiamat, which is also core.

hoganftw2 votes

Conq Voli is nasty tho.

Moody P73 votes

you know what else is nasty? conqueror on actual good champs

Tomoe Gozen3 votes

Volibear, in my opinion, is a rework worthy champion. I see him as i saw old Aatrox, he can't be fixed unless you introduce big changes to his kit and if you're already doing that, he needs a better model, FX... everything.

BigFBear2 votes

He CAN be fixed. I will make a thread soon.

The Goodest Boy2 votes

I understand your point here, and I also understand that you're a big fan of Volibear; but you understand how its a bit unfair to compare really new champions to much much older ones? Volibear was designed under completely different philosophies than a current champ.

I fully agree that Volibear needs some love, but hes an ancient motherfucker

3TWarrior3 votes

which in itself is a problem because those different philosophies were created to keep the game healthy and enjoyable

the person who coordinated most of it had over 10 years of competitive online gaming balance experience

season 7 or 8 rolled around and the only post he was allowed to make from "alternative projects" was "I still exist"

The Goodest Boy1 votes

who are we talking about here, just to clarify?

also I wasnt saying that volibear doesnt need buffs or its okay that hes shit or anything like that. I was just pointing out that he was conceptualized at a completely different point in time, so hes gonna have some noticeable differences to someone as recent as irelia in his basic design. thats all

3TWarrior2 votes

morello, though I may be perpetuating a rumor, but I haven't checked. Even if it might not be true, still better than the half a dozen crazy changes we get a year now

and that's basically what I mean. Generalists have never been healthy for league when they are strong, but now everything we get is a generalist

The Goodest Boy2 votes

very very true. I do miss a time when certain champions would do certain things with their kit, instead of champs like irelia getting to do everything and do it fairly well.

riot doesnt seem to keen on listening to folks about the state of the game though....

Raid Boss Morde1 votes

Here's a more fun one where you can actually compare the juggernauts stats/utility and such.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1krfwyxNVhiQyzRVXePc8rmKb9IuEJOLnlPsumZQpirU/edit?usp=sharing

Now Morde is the very sad one here

(Aatrox is here because Riot kinda classified him as a juggernaut while teasing his rework, but he's a mix of a diver/juggernaut, like Shyvana)

Bisaknosp6 votes

how is morde a sad one? everytime i see this shit champ he somehow heals a r%%%%%ed amount (from minions??!) while gaining a shield his base stats should be low

GayFluffyUnicorn4 votes

These are the boards. Morde is the perfect champion here and should be buffed. It doesn't matter that morde is one of the most cancerous designs in this game and playing against him is like cutting out your kidneys with a spoon.

Raid Boss Morde2 votes

Morde shouldn't be buffed though, you must be crazy, especially not with the gross bug he has right now.

Jerry SeinfeId1 votes

when you set up the chart in such a biased way. Yes, yes he is. Maybe don't judge the champ with pretty much a pure damage kit on his CC and movement?

Raid Boss Morde2 votes

It's actually just there to compare base stats between juggernauts, since some are so unfairly distributed (ahem Nasus having 350 movement speed despite being an "immobile" champ).

DragonShea1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Raid Boss Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6ebiAgy3,comment-id=000600010000,timestamp=2019-01-01T02:38:46.996+0000)

It's actually just there to compare base stats between juggernauts, since some are so unfairly distributed (ahem Nasus having 350 movement speed despite being an "immobile" champ).

Speed =/= mobility. Urgot is more mobile than Nasus due to his dash.

AmetDeCrypt1 votes

don't think they're going to buff volli before any kind of rework mainly because of his bite. with all the scalings on it he can get on average a 1k damage physical bite every 4-5 seconds which utterly nukes squishy targets and just feels bad to play against.

Moody P3 votes

Volibear's bite has a static 18 second cooldown - it does not decrease with ranks in the spell. Volibear can't get the CD lower than 11 seconds. Consider that it's phsyical damage on a champion who can't itemize for penetration except for taking Conqueror (and _maybe _ Rageblade if you're feeling cheeky) and his bite really isn't particularly impressive.

I won't say it's worthless, but its main strength for him is in its early game kill potential to get him ahead than it is to eliminate carries in the late game.

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