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"If Stoneplate/Cho Ult is such a problem, why wasn't it meta before his small rework?"

HateDaddy··115 votes·4,222 views

Because you're stupid, that's why. It was a problem, but he wasn't popular and as a result, he wasn't played enough for it to have a considerable sample size to act as sufficient evidence to prove it. Remember AP Trynd in season 3? Nothing really changed that suddenly made him good, it was a relatively unknown playstyle people weren't aware of after some changes to him. I believe Morello himself even stated they always suspected AP Trynd could be overpowers, but it simply wasn't popular enough to grant quality sample sizes to make such a change.

Moreover, his E gave him something he previously didn't have: reliability and perpetual sticking power. Previously, Cho had no means of sticking to you when missing rupture. Now, he Es you and you're never getting out of his range again. That's well and fine, until he activates Stoneplate and does 2k true damage. I don't have a problem with Cho having consistent sticking power, decent DPS and even a nice true damage nuke - but not at 2k values from an interaction with a tank item. There's really no debating this point alone: this interaction is fucking broken and doesn't belong in the game.

Lastly, rarely do direct additions or changes result in a feature or interaction instantly being broken. It typically takes a few indirect changes to pave the way for that entity to become constant. Truthfully, I'd argue this is the foundation of overpowered independent of raw statistical overtuning: something that performs far too well too consistently while ignoring its weaknesses. This is what paved the way for Cho'Gath to go from a weak power leve to an absurd one.

Removing Stoneplates interaction with Cho R is the best way to balance him because it truly is the only abusive feature he has and it needs to go. I do not understand why the people on this board defend such a ridiculous feature. It's brain numbing.

119 Comments

Big Lincoln42 votes

stoneplate/cho ult was always stupid damage

he stayed shit because he could never actually use it on the people he wants to hit it with. E change gave him sticking power AND much better jg clears so he immediately became a powerfarm monster. cinder = more hp = bigger feast

oh and righteous glory changes benefit him too. run down the ADC and get armor to resist them in the same item

HateDaddy6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6UeeKnnW,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-07-28T03:27:47.965+0000)

stoneplate/cho ult was always stupid damage

he stayed shit because he could never actually use it on the people he wants to hit it with. E change gave him sticking power AND much better jg clears so he immediately became a powerfarm monster. cinder = more hp = bigger feast

oh and righteous glory changes benefit him too. run down the ADC and get armor to resist them in the same item

Yep

aspects14 votes

you realize rightous glory existed before his e rework right?

Sugar Momma8 votes

It didn't give armor (or CDR for that matter) before.

junglerboy162 votes

It didn't fit his build because it gave relatively undesirable stats for the slot investment.

Extra CDR and Armor make him substantially beefier overall and allows him to stack faster, and the change to the active was also a strong buff for his specific needs.

kargish16 votes

Not to mention he chains it with this thing item 3190

He practically takes on all roles in the game

Warden - item 3193 item 3190

Vanguard - Rupture

DPS - E

Burst mage - Q/W/R (High base+ratio)

Assassin - item 3193 + R

Anti-mage/assassin - Q/W

Tank

Jungler with improved smite - R

Anti-tank - E % damage

Sustain - Passive

Late game - Infinite health and hp scaling

This guy can do it all he's a jack of all trades

StJohnSavage3 votes

This guy can do it all he's a king of all trades

ftfy

KennysDreamGirl2 votes

can someone tell me what ftfy means?

######sorry I don't know

PB4UAME3 votes

Fixed That For You.

LadyRenly13 votes

A Hatedaddy thread that i can get behind, fuck yeah

fudge the downvoters, you preach the truth brutha

OyddAWqJ5r5 votes

I think it always WAS a problem but the meta slaves weren't aware of it yet and they are just now abusing it.

However I do agree that the new E buff is what pushed him over the edge. Whether that's the main issue or simply an amplification of the present issue of the stoneplate interaction by removing the need to build ANY damage due to E's % health damage which allows him to focus on the core items needed to perform the stoneplate cheese (righteous glory). Ofcourse the new reliability in the form of E's slow helps as well.

All in all I don't think any one factor is the main issue but rather every factor contributing to his rise are the issues, plural. So I don't believe that you can pinpoint any single interaction as the main issue but rather Riot themselves should decide which ones are core to his gameplay while shaving off excess power.

Azteryz5 votes

Because you're stupid

hey guys, he thinks we're stupid D:<

OceanicEyes4 votes

Cho's my boy, and I gotta say I preferred playing him prior to stoneplate and the E change. Don't think he should rely on the stoneplate ult, and was happy with his previous E (but don't mind the new E either).

Making stoneplate's active reduce true damage as well would be a great step to toning him down.

PB4UAME2 votes

There are a lot of issues that change to Stoneplate would cause, and I think it is overall far worse than Cho being in this state.

For one, true damage is not mitigated nor increased, nor affected by anything ever. Period. It's not even coded as coming from your champion, so applying the damage reduction wouldn't be as straight forward either.

Secondly, how does this affect every other champion with true damage? Should Garen, Darius, Irelia, Olaf, etc get nerfed interactions with the item as well? What about Amumu and his passive?

Thirdly, this would also reduce the damage of Smite and Ignite now, which is just. . . not right. That would cause so many issues and violate RIOT's ongoing stance of keeping smite wars as equal as possible especially with regards to item interactions.

Dr Poro4 votes

The E changes made his early game better and made him more useful during teamfights other than his ult, which is a good thing. But with this change, the ult really becomes a problem. You can't have a 1-hit KO ult and be useful outside of it. I think this is just a lazy interaction.

#Gargolye's active should reduce true damage dealt.

Seriously, the whole point of the active is to become tankier but deal less damage. When it doesn't apply to true damage, that's just bullshit on some champions.

Weasel Kensei3 votes

The thing about "True damage" is that its true... as in there is no way to reduce it or enhance it because the number is always "true."

Not saying its good that it isnt reduced, but reducing true damage would make it untrue... just saying.

DuskDaUmbreon3 votes

Not really. True damage implies that it ignores opponents' resistances, not personal mitigations.

Weasel Kensei2 votes

Um... its just called true damage... any personal inferences you have placed on it are yours.

Consider that masteries that enhance damage do not enhance true damage unless the source was original another kind of damage and is converted to true damage under certain conditions. The prime conditional example is Vel'koz ult where its calculated as magic damage, and then is converted to true damage if the target is researched.

Simple examples are Vayne and SIlver Bolts.

Her true damage procs dont benefit from masteries like Battle Trance, Expose Weakness, Bounty Hunter, Assassin, or Merciless % damage increase. Neither does Twitch poison, neither does Vel'Koz passive that procs true damage every 3 ability/AA hits.

True damage is pretty consistent because it will do the number it says, no more, no less. Masteries dont increase it, items dont decrease it. If one item is making a single champ a problem, then either the champ has to be changed, or the item does. Not "True damage" on everyone/thing that uses it.

PB4UAME2 votes

No, you're mistaken, it ignores everything. Garen W, Alistar ult, old Olaf ult, everything. You can neither reduce nor increase true damage. Vlad's ult, Swain's E, and all the % increased damage masteries don't effect ignite nor any other true damage. Additionally true damage is not even coded as coming from your character iirc, but as the server reducing the targets health by that amount.

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

I never said it did. I'm saying that it implies that.

PB4UAME1 votes

Mm. Well, it doesn't though?

I have no idea what you're basing that notion on, except for, perhaps, your own experiences and opinion?

It's clearly not the effect visible in game, which is nothing at all affects this ever, nor is it based on the intended perception of it, which as paraphrased from an old RIOT comment on the matter is, "With True Damage there is no need for trying to math out or predict the damage against your target or to pre-memorize resistance thresholds; you should always expect True Damage will deal exactly the amount it says it will on the tooltip."

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Nah just change it from bonus hp to base hp scaling. Then all the issues are fixed since cho's ulti scales off bonus hp.

Weasel Kensei2 votes

I think the answer is to change G. Stoneplate to a shield instead of HP with maybe a small/moderate heal at the end of its active. Shielding woulndt scale Cho ult damage, would give survivability, could be virtually indistinguishable from how it works now. Would need some minor tuning, but would be a potential fix.

EcchiOtakuTM2 votes

Nah I thought about that too, it would take a lot more involvement to balance out cause the shielding amount would have to be significant and it would still be too similar to aegis.

Changing it from counting as bonus to base hp would be the right way to fix it without investing too much follow-up resources into keeping it balanced.

PB4UAME2 votes

Also, piggy-backing on your comment, why should a tank item be best built with a support unique passive modifer (%increased healing/shielding effect)? And then, instead of giving their main stat, and one they can use well and scale into primarily defensive abilities (though some niche offensive ones like. . . pretty much just Cho, and I think Sej still has one on her w?) that then also has increased returns from the secondary and tertiary stats making each point of hp worth more from all their resistances and damage mitigation-- give them instead something another support item already does, but also does for their whole team?

And then, what would be done with the other anti-burst shield items we already have? Sterak's Gage was designed to do what you're talking about already, and there is also Maw which both already share the same unique passive. We don't need a fucking third one so now the tanks and defensive classes could only build 1 of the 3 instead of having all of them available as RIOT originally intended.

EcchiOtakuTM2 votes

.....wtf you're right it would be like sterak/maw if they change it like that...... Nice call

PB4UAME2 votes

Also, riddle me this, after your change, how do we solve the smite issue you've just created?

Leaf on Bush4 votes

Meta isn't an accurate representation of which champion could potentially be working very well. When something is meta it's actually being done by the majority and works for them.

The strongest champion or build right now could be played only by a minority so it would not be meta!

Meta is really just copying something because it worked and while it might continue to work it does never mean it's the best and that there isn't something better or a counter to it.

If you follow the meta you are always 1 step behind or even, if you do something before it becomes meta, or if you contribute to something becoming meta by playing it, then you really have an advantage.

Chromatic Eagle4 votes

Who are the people who defend stoneplate/cho ult? I don't think 5 people is a majority.

japhib2 votes

Basically everyone ... it's totally core in his builds rn

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items/chogath

GigaPube4 votes

Because you're stupid, that's why

father was right :(

Poske4 votes

did his ulti even scale of hp? Was stoneplate even in game?

Auz the Ripper3 votes

they're talking about the mini-rework of his E that happened a patch or two ago

Poske1 votes

didnt they add hp scalling same patch?

PB4UAME3 votes

The hp scaling was added a long while ago. Several months iirc.

Shadow Hazard3 votes

Remember when zzrot was THE tank item. It took a few patches for it to catch on and become a problem.

Blåbæret3 votes

Because no one played Cho. Because of the buffs people gave him a try.

Seekêr3 votes

Ive been playing cho for years. He was one of my early champs I used to learn the game and I am here to tell you YOU WERE ALL PLAYING HIM WRONG.

The reason he is a problem now is because recent changes have brought attention to his e which was strong early on before the change.

With his E at level 1 and AD runes you could out duel most champions just because it gave you +20 AD as magic damage that has range.

My strat has always been to abuse his E and use his W to avoid punishment. His E got stronger once he could proc thunder lords with it. (W+AA would proc thunderlords)

He did not get much stronger from the rework, I climbed to g2 with a 73% winrate on cho over 30+ games in s6 because i abused this strategy.

Cho was never bad, the meta was not in his favor and people played him like a burst mage when he needs to be played like renekton, a bully juggernaut that can kill you if you dont respect his area of control.

The E rework was a mistake, not only is the damage way too frickin op, but it wasnt needed. Riot failed to recognize that while the majority of cho players were failing, those players that adapted to his playstyle and abused his strengths were succeeding. That is cause for this mess.

Colgate Gator2 votes

Hold on, there are people defending Cho Gath's current state?

Jorencice4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Postal Badger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6UeeKnnW,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2017-07-28T14:50:58.151+0000)

Hold on, there are people defending Cho Gath's current state?

Shrug just doesn't seen world ending like everyone else seems to think it is.

Rework kogmaw after buffs was world ending.

Could easily kill 5 people in a couple of seconds and had like a 65% winrate.

Cho can kill 1 squishy every minute or so.

Snowplosion2 votes

And because Stoneplate wasn't an item before his rework??? Or do you mean the E change?

Killed Inaction2 votes

Wouldn't a fairly easy fix (and moderate nerf to account for E buff) be to make his ult scale with base HP, and then make ult stacks increase his base HP? That way the bonus HP from Stoneplate wouldn't impact its damage, and it would reduce the damage output of him building pure tank (and let's be honest, a pure tank shouldn't have high burst in the first place). Thoughts?

Pendergast8911 votes

And how do you suggest they get rid of the interaction?

Salron6 votes

Someone mentioned Stoneplate should just increase your Base hp by amount = to half your max HP

Since it's not bonus HP the extra hp wouldnt affect the ratio

SilverSlayer4251 votes

how would changing the ult damage to either Magic damage with 100% m-pen or Physical damage with 100% ar-pen (with an exception that states receives no healing from vamp) fare? that way 80% of the time, it is still the same true damage, but stoneplate would now reduce the damage

I would tend towards the physical damage route, as less champions have physical specific damage resistance (unlike magic resistance like Kassadin or upcoming DrMundo ). then of course they can buff him if (big if) they need to after the change, as even with the ar-pen, it would still be weaker than the true damage version that is live.

Boop Daddy 3 votes

Things like Annie and Galio shield with %dmg reduction would hard counter this new change.

50000000000000003 votes

Not to mention Phantom Dancer, Death's Dance, and Knight's Vow providing further damage reduction.

SilverSlayer4252 votes

i've lost track on how many %damage reduction things there were, it was just an idea, and this is why i don't work on the balance team

Dr Poro7 votes

The problem isn't even the extra hp that Cho scales with. The problem is that the active is supposed to reduce damage dealt by 60% but this doesn't work on true damage.

Mr Wind Up Bird3 votes

Agreed. I played probably 50 games with Cho between stoneplate release and mini-rework. I made sure never to ult while stoneplate was active because I assumed damage would be reduced. Should've checked in training room, I know, but it's still baffling to me that this could be intended functionality.

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