"We really want to promote strategic diversity this season!"

metaworldpeace10·Dec 12, 2014·74 votes·5,159 views

Meanwhile is in every. single. game. He works in every team comp, there is 0 downside to picking Lee Sin. The balance team gutted because he could fit into any team comp, why not nerf Lee so that he can't fit into every team comp? There is NO reason why he has been allowed to dictate how the jungle is played and balanced for 4 seasons. I'm tired of seeing Lee Sin every game. He will continue to crowd out every tank/utility jungler and he will continue to be pick/ban in every major tournament around the world. Nerf this son of a bitch.

87 Comments

SmokingPuffinDec 12, 201456 votes

In fairness, LeeSin is incredibly strategically diverse. He can do everything!

Sybil CutDec 12, 201412 votes

Just give Lee Sin to both teams in all games and the jungle is completely balanced, healthy, and fun no matter what changes you make to the jungle from that point onwards.

In fact, just change Normals to 5v5 lee sin pentajungle

edit: after making this post i wanted to try it (5v5 lee sin deathmatch, jungle camps and kills only xp/gold, first to 10 kills wins or something) and it occurred to me that all for one is the only way to do this. would legit be really fun with contesting over new camps like scuttler, distributing smite buffs amongst your team, etc. sadface)

The5lackerDec 13, 20141 votes

Other than see.

Oh wait...He totally can. What a liar.

ImHerVoiceDec 12, 201422 votes

gutted lucian? passive still can do 800+ with crit. how is that gutted again?

TrotongoDec 12, 20145 votes

I know right, still pretty retarded adc, picked almost every game.

ImHerVoiceDec 12, 20148 votes

yeah kids these days don't know what gutted is. They think champs like katarina deal damage now should've seen old kat with the same amount of AP.

DeadXeraDec 13, 20148 votes

Shaco Evelynn Alistar You wanna talk about gutted damage, big guy?

ImHerVoiceDec 13, 20142 votes

you realize I play all three of those champions with above a 60% winrate right?

DeadXeraDec 21, 20141 votes

How does that refute my response? Does your anecdotal evidence of doing well with them somehow mean they didn't get their base damages, ratios, cooldowns, and in cases other than alistar, CC all gutted?

ImHerVoiceDec 21, 20141 votes

because it means I'm competent with the champion and understand it enough to win enough games.

And alistar is gutted.

But it was never his damage that was an issue It was his mechanics and way he went about apply his damage was the issue. Getting a free auto from W was broken, always was. it should've been removed day 1. Its an archaic mechanic thats easily abusable on AP top lane alistar. Hence ap top lane alistar showing up and being a very good pick for awhile.

JunkοDec 12, 20143 votes

Meanwhile Draven with crit

Sozan5Dec 13, 20141 votes

Draven Q crits hit less than Lucian crits with passive as long as Lucian have IE and is above level 13 (or before nerfs).

Draven Q Critical Strike: 100% AD (AA) + 85% AD (Q) + 150% AD (Crit with IE) = 335% AD Lucian Passive Critical Strike: 100% AD (AA) + 50% AD (Passive) + 150% AD (Crit with IE) + 37,5% AD (Passive crit with IE) = 337,5% AD

JunkοDec 13, 20142 votes

That's only a 2.5% AD difference, now add the fact that Lucian will only be able to use his passive 3 times while Draven can use it as long as he catches axes and outdamages Lucian AA's if he catches 2 axes

Sozan5Dec 13, 20143 votes

Indeed, I wasn't really discussing balance there - just damage on a single AA (which I think you were referring to).

If I was discussing balance I wouldn't compare Draven and Lucian - those are completely different tiers and Draven have no chance of winning any trades against Lucian at all in 1v1 laning scenario, unless he is significantly more skilled than Lucian (or Lucian makes an imporant mistake).

Mind you that it doesn't mean that Draven automatically loses lane - he just can't beat him in 1v1. In 2v2 scenario it looks a bit different, as Draven is more support reliant than Lucian is.

ZoofDec 13, 20144 votes

To be fair though, Draven can't just stand on the spot and auto you as much as he wants, he is gonna be moving around for axes and thus wasting potential attackspeed.

TrotongoDec 13, 20141 votes

draven takes skill, lucian doesn't.

JunkοDec 13, 20141 votes

Pressing Q and autoattacking for winning every trade so hard

ThisNameDoesntFiDec 13, 20145 votes

Can't tell if you're talking about draven or lucian here LOL

JunkοDec 13, 20141 votes

Draven, though Lucian does QAAWAAEAA and wins

AbsoluteSadmanDec 14, 20141 votes

but you have to reposition for every axe

JunkοDec 14, 20141 votes

And you control where it goes and at level 2 gain a MS and AS boost if you catch it.

AbsoluteSadmanDec 14, 20141 votes

im sorry have you ever played draven? or even against one? all you have to do is zone him away from his axes, thats where ALL of his damage comes from.

ShemsuHorDec 13, 20142 votes

both draven and lucian do too much damage too easily. Granted Draven is much harder at all stages of the game but no adc should ever be able to have a single AA do Assassin kind of damage. Mid-late game If draven 1 on 1 any same skill level adc but quinn or ashe hes gonna win.

TiropatDec 13, 20141 votes

ehhh vayne can win through condemn cheese but yeah draven is stupid

The WhamboozlerDec 12, 201412 votes

Lee's problem is his kit, not his numbers. That won't change without a rework, and too many people like Lee for them to rework him. They only rework old or unpopular champs. In fact, it looks like Lee Sin is their model for building NEW champs, what with the crazy mobility, moves with passive and active uses or moves with two uses depending on what you're doing. Lee Sin isn't getting nerfed... he's their poster child for what they want the game to be!

And it sucks a little. Because when EVERYONE is Lee Sin.... no one will be.

ArveanorDec 12, 20143 votes

While I agree, a few small changes would make his utility a bit less dominant for the time being (indefinitely that is, since they'll never rework him)

Say, reduce his Q missile speed and width. make his slow weaker at earlier ranks. lower his base ms by 10. lower his base armor and mr slightly.

Boom Lee can't farm as well, Lee's ganks are lower threat, and it's somewhat easier to pick up a kill on him if he makes a mistake when he comes to your lane. He can still do all of those annoying Lee Sin things he likes to do, but I think these are all the sorts of nerfs that would shave off some of his power while still letting him retain his "Identity". (I guess it's hard to keep someone's identity intact through nerfs, when their identity is "better than everyone else".

ZulgainesDec 13, 20142 votes

{quoted} Because when EVERYONE is OP.... no one will be.

Sounds like we're going DOTA style.

Fried NoobDec 12, 201411 votes

Lee sin currently suffers from the same problem Olaf did pre-Olafing. In skilled hands he just outright dominates everyone, but in less skilled hands, he sucks. So, when they nerfed Olaf, he became less overbearing, but at the same time completely worthless for the majority of players. Quite frankly, if they nerf something significant on Lee, he wil most likely disappear just like Olaf did.

RatbertDec 12, 20145 votes

"In skilled hands he just outright dominates everyone, but in less skilled hands, he sucks." This is true for almost every champ.

When they ~~gutted~~ nerfed olaf, he didn't become less overbearing, he just sucked more than anyone else. Coupled with his ult lowering his resistances and the sheer difficulty of being a melee with no dash, Olaf just faded away.

Even if lee sin got hit with a 50% damage reduction on skills, he'd still function perfectly fine as disrupter with his LCSBIGPLAYS DOUBLE-DASH. Quite frankly, if riot nerfs something significant on anyone, they will most likely disappear just like Olaf did, not just lee, if ever lee.

DryditchDec 12, 20147 votes

Nice name, first off.

Second, neither gutting nor nerfing are the right terms for Olaf. He was, to put it simply, Olafed. It's a state worse than being gutted. I remember, when I first started, just how strong he was--he was like Malphite is now--not an insta-pick or insta-ban, but a strong champion who made me enjoy playing melee.

Third, Lee Sin is just toxic for the game, and I agree with you about his viability even with a 50% damage reduction. There's only one way to deal with cancer, and that is to excise the tumors and begin chemo... so it's up to Riot to delete the malignancy that is Lee Sin, and begin slowly healing the game.

Ariel the CruelDec 12, 201411 votes

Don't worry, I'm sure LeeSin is on the nerf list. They just need to get through the other 153 champions on the list, first.

AmazingGoatDec 12, 201410 votes

I have played over 1000 ranked games in Bronze/Silver. In all of that time, I can remember maybe one game where I felt like Lee Sin dominated a game. There are many champions who, if even slightly fed, make the game feel miserable and un-winnable. This includes Yi, Fiora, Akali, etc. Lee is simply not on this list. Even if he gets 3 or 4 kills early, I never feel like the game is over. He feels strong, but not overbearing. Most low ELO games go to late game, and Lee simply doesn't dominate late game like some other champs do.

Is it possible that although Lee outshines almost everyone as a jungler, he isn't actually overpowered in regards to the entire champion pool? I legitimately don't have enough experience/knowledge to know the answer to this, but it's just a theory based on the feedback I see. If he was overpowered overall, wouldn't you see him laning more often? Is it possible that the real issue isn't that Lee is overpowered, but instead that there aren't that many junglers who can perform in the role as well as Lee? And that other junglers can't simply be tuned to perform as well, because if they were so tuned they would be overpowered in other facets, e.g. laning or late game?

Just my two cents.

ValyrianBladeDec 12, 201416 votes

What you're saying is true.

The problem is, a good Lee sin never takes the kill. A good Lee sin ganks and gets his mid /late game laner a kill (and himself an assist).

So you don't think "omg akali is so fed, Lee sin is OP ganks", you think "omg akali is so fed she's op" or "akali is so fed, our top laner sucks".

If you're playing and Lee sin gets 3-4 early KILLS, you're not going to have many problems - it's evidence that the player just wants a good KDA and isn't focused on winning, and come late game you'll outscale them.

What's scary is when Lee sin succeeds on 3-4 ganks and the laners got all the kills. In these cases though, players often blame their teammate for feeding or the enemy laner for being good, few credit Lee sin for pulling off a God-like gank (or in league terms, an average Lee sin play).

GanksLikeGast0nDec 12, 201410 votes

Exactly. Lee Sin's problem isn't "offensive strength" so much as overbearing utility. Starting as a top laner and transitioning into a jungle main I have dealt with Lee in both of his primary roles, and honestly he is lackluster as a solo, but a monster on a team. In almost any situation he can make huge plays, especially during the early game where he snowballs an entire team to nigh unstoppable levels.

3ternalkarmaDec 12, 20144 votes

{quoted} I have played over 1000 ranked games in Bronze/Silver. In all of that time, I can remember maybe one game where I felt like Lee Sin dominated a game. There are many champions who, if even slightly fed, make the game feel miserable and un-winnable. This includes Yi, Fiora, Akali, etc. Lee is simply not on this list. Even if he gets 3 or 4 kills early, I never feel like the game is over. He feels strong, but not overbearing. Most low ELO games go to late game, and Lee simply doesn't dominate late game like some other champs do.

Is it possible that although Lee outshines almost everyone as a jungler, he isn't actually overpowered in regards to the entire champion pool? I legitimately don't have enough experience/knowledge to know the answer to this, but it's just a theory based on the feedback I see. If he was overpowered overall, wouldn't you see him laning more often? Is it possible that the real issue isn't that Lee is overpowered, but instead that there aren't that many junglers who can perform in the role as well as Lee? And that other junglers can't simply be tuned to perform as well, because if they were so tuned they would be overpowered in other facets, e.g. laning or late game?

Just my two cents.

heres the thing.... when you face a good lee.... you cant leave your tower ever if he gets slightly ahead he has that much mobility and damage

AlëkDec 13, 20141 votes

{quoted} I have played over 1000 ranked games in Bronze/Silver. In all of that time, I can remember maybe one game where I felt like Lee Sin dominated a game. There are many champions who, if even slightly fed, make the game feel miserable and un-winnable. This includes Yi, Fiora, Akali, etc. Lee is simply not on this list. Even if he gets 3 or 4 kills early, I never feel like the game is over. He feels strong, but not overbearing. Most low ELO games go to late game, and Lee simply doesn't dominate late game like some other champs do.

Is it possible that although Lee outshines almost everyone as a jungler, he isn't actually overpowered in regards to the entire champion pool? I legitimately don't have enough experience/knowledge to know the answer to this, but it's just a theory based on the feedback I see. If he was overpowered overall, wouldn't you see him laning more often? Is it possible that the real issue isn't that Lee is overpowered, but instead that there aren't that many junglers who can perform in the role as well as Lee? And that other junglers can't simply be tuned to perform as well, because if they were so tuned they would be overpowered in other facets, e.g. laning or late game?

Just my two cents.

If they changed the junglers to match Lee's utilities, jungle would without a doubt be the strongest role in the game. So here's the case m8. Lee Sin is the type of champion who's mechanics take quite a bit of practice and understanding to do well with. In low elo, mechanics are probably the biggest problem. Noone understands mechanics in low elo. There is one objective and one alone; killing the enemy. Fuck cs, fuck towers, fuck dragon. That shit don't matter in low elo. Point is Lee takes actually practice and understanding to do well with, so low elo sucks ass with him (you get a few that don't), and high elo dominate with him.

ImHerVoiceDec 21, 20141 votes

you're trash at dealing with late game champs in low elo. yeah we get it.

KidKaiserDec 12, 20148 votes

it's cuz his 'ward hop' is his defining nature. honestly. that should of been out by the time s3 started.

but ya'know. ma #e$port$ and #b1gpl4y$

one of the best plays i've ever seen was heimer with smite. and team pushes. with Olaf swinging tele's and farming xp and moolah. (this was pretty much where brolaf got gutted. cuz ONE TEAM outplayed. the other team.)

and yet. if Olaf is behind even slightly. there's no #b1gpl4y$ !!!! but once he's ahead even slightly. ma #e$port$ ! NURF NERF NURFFFF !

Lee Sin on the other hand.. slightly behind. Q. lands his target. Q. flash R. team wins fight. Q. misses?! it's k. try again.

slightly ahead?! HAHAHA rip. you lose the game now. cuz ward hopping is too hard. [GET OUTPALYED]

EDIT: here's that heimer jungle* link. HEIMER JUNGLE?!?!?! WUT!?

CHAMPION SELECT AT ROUGHLY 3:33:00~ hh;mm;ss

trust me. it's not even 20mins. the enemy team didn't even get to surrender to the onslaught. sh*t goes down when you outplay the enemy team at champ select.

metaworldpeace10Dec 12, 20146 votes

It's annoying to see Lee Sin being the king of the jungle for 4 seasons and Riot doesn't bat an eye, but when a FoTm champions comes into view (ie Shyvana) she gets nerfed into oblivion.

JunkοDec 12, 201411 votes

Shyvana got nerfed because Phreak lost a game to her. Last game he played before the patch she was gutted was him being 0/10 or something as Lux against a Shyvana

huntsodaDec 13, 20142 votes

My favorite part of that cycle of nerfs was writing off the gutting of the e's base damage as a "bugfix" :P

2pudge1cupDec 12, 20144 votes

Warwick is overbearing for 2 weeks largely due to his interaction between one specific new item. He gets nerfed instantly (and will probably see more subsequent nerfs either directly to him or to the item).

LeeSin is overbearing for 4 years now. Riot has to make sure to focus group and put lots of thought into giving him the slightest changes as to not upset the cabal of crybaby Lee players.

It wouldn't be so frustrating if this double standard didn't rear it's ugly head every time a non-Lee Sin jungler gets significant play. Hell, even Elise who it seemed was going to be at least allowed to be on par with Lee got hers.

Jesus is SaviorDec 13, 20143 votes

In season 4 I could jungle Evelynn, Master Yi, Warwick, and Udyr. Sometimes if I was feeling like a change, I'd jungle Rammus. Those 4 were my mains, and Rammus was my "screw dat enemy team comp, I wanna play a full tank against that" guy.

Evelynn is trash in the new jungle, especially after the nerfs to purple smite (even BEFORE that she was trash). I don't want to play her and try and make it work.

Warwick got gutted and is weaker than he was in season 4. I don't want to play him and get zero early kills because I do no damage.

Udyr can't AFK farm as well (because the camps have ridiculous respawn timers) and can't acquire as much gold as he could in season 4. His ganks are trash (especially with less gold). The only thing he does well is take dragon. And if the enemy team groups for dragon and your team doesn't.... Then he can't even do that. I don't want to play Udyr.

Rammus is absolute garbage in the new jungle, and can only survive the camps if he maxes W first. Maxing W instead of E means your ganks will be trash, and you might as well not even gank until after level 6. If you DO max E first, and try for early ganks (ie: play Rammus how he's supposed to be played), and your gank fails, congratulations! The next jungle camp will execute you because you're now super behind. I really don't want to play Rammus and make him work.

So that leaves me with.... Master Yi as my only option.

"Diversity"

DrinkMoreWhiskeyDec 13, 20142 votes

{quoted}

Rammus is absolute garbage in the new jungle, and can only survive the camps if he maxes W first. Maxing W instead of E means your ganks will be trash, and you might as well not even gank until after level 6. If you DO max E first, and try for early ganks (ie: play Rammus how he's supposed to be played), and your gank fails, congratulations! The next jungle camp will execute you because you're now super behind. I really don't want to play Rammus and make him work.

That's just plain not true as a plat Rammus main. Rammus clears at fine hp if not higher thanks to path finder if you're playing him right. It's just slower than molasses if you have to farm instead of gank for whatever reason.

Wouldn't put him on the s tier list but he's no where near as bad as you make him out to be, I've hardly lost with him (granted only 10 or so plays) in the new jungle.

Jesus is SaviorDec 13, 20142 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Real Kowboy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6OWz8HXH,comment-id=001c0000,timestamp=2014-12-13T09:47:05.772+0000) That's just plain not true as a plat Rammus main. Rammus clears at fine hp if not higher thanks to path finder if you're playing him right. It's just slower than molasses if you have to farm instead of gank for whatever reason.

Wouldn't put him on the s tier list but he's no where near as bad as you make him out to be, I've hardly lost with him (granted only 10 or so plays) in the new jungle.

I refuse to use the garbage purple jungle item on anyone since the nerfs. I used to use it on everyone (even Warwick and Yi), and have my teammates yell at me for "using the wrong jungle item".

Even if Rammus needs that crutch to clear (and can only clear one camp every 60 seconds because of it), I'm gonna find another way. The item is trash now.

Stalker's blade + maxing W first works. And I have a nice slow if someone tries to juke my powerball, so they're getting taunted anyway.

"Diversity"

Riot: "Rammus has to use the garbage purple jungle item or he dies. BTW we're nerfing it even though it's nowhere near as powerful as the other 2, LOL"

metaworldpeace10Dec 13, 20143 votes

I think we can all agree that Lee Sin has been a "top tier" jungler for 3 seasons now. He's never been a "weak" pick. He's too versatile of a pick. Need an early game fighter? Yep, hes got that down pact. Need mobility? Yep, can ward hop and q to any enemy. Does he have CC to help lock down a gank? Yep, he's got tons of that. Need a tank/utility jungler rather than a fighter? Sure, Lee can do that and still do relevant damage. Sustain in the jungle? Yep, free LS and spell vamp, plus a shield. He does too many things well, SOMETHING needs to give, I'd prefer that they take away his sustain. That's an easy thing to remove without removing his big LC$ plays.

manbearswineDec 12, 20142 votes

I hate you people,you keep focusing on lee,even though zed is almost as bad and as far as diversity goes,thresh is far worse(just go ahead,go into your match history,tell me which champion is the most picked).

Assassin meta dominates solo q,jungle is for the most part still almost exclusively made of carry junglers,top is the way it always has been(so uh,at least thats not worse),bot is thresh+some other support(at least those guys are a bit diverse) and corki vs lucian,yes lee is a rather big offender but: 1)thresh is even worse(I mean comeon,at least show some consistently towards this other abomination,who is worse than lee as far as making picks stale). 2)it's pretty much the same champions(or at least the same playstlye,aside from maybe xerath) who've been dominating the meta for years now and nothing seems to be changing,I also don't see how the preseason changes are supposed to change that either.

2pudge1cupDec 13, 20142 votes

I agree Thresh is a problem as well.

Thresh is to supports what lee is to jungle. Just because there are other offenders out there that crowd out other picks in their respective roles doesn't mean that lee should be left alone.

manbearswineDec 13, 20141 votes

{quoted} I agree Thresh is a problem as well.

Thresh is to supports what lee is to jungle. Just because there are other offenders out there that crowd out other picks in their respective roles doesn't mean that lee should be left alone.

My issue is I don't get what's with the focus on lee sin,why not instead speak more generally about champions who have been in every single game for months now,both competitive and solo q,why are there so many threads about lee,yet I don't see anything about zed or thresh,both of which are about as dominant as lee is.

I agree lee is a problem,but I think zed and thresh deserve just as much attention and fall under the same category and shouldn't be complained about separately,down with this unholy trinity.

Just JangleDec 13, 20143 votes

{quoted} My issue is I don't get what's with the focus on lee sin,why not instead speak more generally about champions who have been in every single game for months now,both competitive and solo q,why are there so many threads about lee,yet I don't see anything about zed or thresh,both of which are even more dominant than lee is,at least as far as solo q goes.

I agree lee is a problem,but I think zed and thresh deserve just as much attention and fall under the same category and shouldn't be complained about separately,down with this unholy trinity.

When did you start playing?

Bcuz if you started since season 1 like me, you would be tired of Lee Sin every damn game in YOLO queue and Pro Scene.