Why would you ever nerf Tristana?

Ahristocats·Feb 24, 2018·38 votes·3,448 views

https://i.gyazo.com/d8a7f1f5387d3d01737af7f2c70b4241.png

right? why would you ever nerf her Q attack speed or anything?

just give her -25 range but buff her passive range, and increase her W damage by 40 at rank one which is just a ~~70% damage increase to make her even more obnoxious in lane

it's not like she can already kill you in one trade if you get cc'ed or all in'ed because her ult deals 300 MAGIC DAMAGE AT RANK 1 and her ult still allows you to queue one autoattack during the cast animation something that was removed from vayne

it's not like the 2nd most played adc needs a nerf this isn't your darius/xin/whatever, she can't just be straight up nerfed she will need a buff compensation

damn, here i thought we were moving in a good direction with 8.4 but let's make tristana a lane bully hypercarry

lol

55 Comments

AbibyamaFeb 24, 20187 votes

Introducing a weakness btw

Edit: A satire about meddler talking about changing tristana and he said “Rather than cutting out her power, we’ll introduce a weakness to her”

RyrynounetFeb 24, 201822 votes

"weakness" well, if someone somehow manage to reach tristana she'll either R you or jump out, sure big weakness

Supreme Senpai69Feb 24, 201834 votes

As Khazix, she was under our mid tower in the mid game. I ulted in with my speedy speed boost, but got ulted back while she ran. But! Another charge of my ulty ult, and I caught back up. Then she W'd away. But!! I saved my E, because I am a smart void creature and expected this. I E'd onto her. But she flashed. But! I still had my flash. But at this point I'm under her tower and she kills me.

I ban Trist every game.

Chembaron YamadaFeb 24, 201820 votes

Yep, hyper carry who is also the most safe ADC in the entire game. Never understood that principle for her.

Other hyper carries like Jinx or Twitch are at least doomed if you manage to jump on top of them. But Tristana has 2 ways built into the kit to escape in that situation. [zombie-brand-clap]

AzadetheFeb 24, 20181 votes

She's only safe when you're not willing to pick the right champs into her and respect what parts of her kit is still up. If she fails to set up a kill her W reset is worthless, and she starts the game with one of the lowest ranges. Punish her early, put her behind, and never get low enough near her that she can W in and kill you. It's pretty simple. I personally don't mind Tristana and I play support. As a support, Draven Caitlyn Jhin Jinx own their lanes far more than Trist does, unless you give Trist Nami

P.S. Twitch is not doomed, because if he kills you, it resets his Camouflage, which is undetectable unless you're right on top of him.

Furthermore, Jinx and Twitch tend to build item 3085 so they have a lot more sustain than a Tristana (secondary attacks add to life steal)

AhristocatsFeb 24, 201810 votes

{quoted}

If she fails to set up a kill her W reset is worthless

So? It doesn't prevent her from using W once it's like saying her ult is useless because once on CD she can't use it anymore

Tristana's kit is aberrant It was fine in the past because we had more broken shit than that it's no longer fine, she has 100% pick/ban in pro, 30% pick rate and 52% win rate in regular

everyone associates tristana with free win didn't you watch meddler/qtpie conversation? every single minute qtpie reminded meddler that tristana is just fcking busted and there is no way you would lose with her if you have 2 neurones

jesus

RyrynounetFeb 24, 20185 votes

Welcome to the club buddy, it's really unfunny to endlessly use 2 gap closer without being able to reach her :')

ArakadiaFeb 24, 20183 votes

To be fair, you flashed under tower as a squishy assassin after burning every mobility spell and half your kit.

Tristana's kit is poorly designed, but that was poor gameplay choices as well.

Supreme Senpai69Feb 25, 20183 votes

Oh, you're totally right. My point was that she is just so incredibly tilting. Had she been in the middle of the lane I wouldn't have even bothered flashing. But she was under our tower, and I still couldn't reach her as a highly mobile assassin. I completely deserved to die on that one. But, my point was more that she shouldn't have even gotten to her tower.

DurzakaFeb 24, 20186 votes

Id like to point out, just for some comparison, a couple things for you.

You complain her ult deals 300 damage at level 1. Ezreals does 350. And its AoE, so he can damage both players bot lane with it. Id also like to point out that it doesnt scale with AD. At all. That is all the damage it is ever going to do, all from skill ups. Unlike other ADCs ults.

Whatever, moving on. Everyone has their titties all in a twist about the queued autoattack being taken from Vayne, and not Tristana. Literally no one is stopping to think how drastically different these 2 comparisons one. First and foremost, One is on an ultimate, and one is on a basic ability. That right there would be enough of a difference to make the argument pointless. Two, Vayne has True Silver Bolts. Meaning that free AA she gets to queue up gets to do all of her AD (plus crit and whatever else like on-hits), but is ALSO procs an extra stack of true silver bolts. So something like AA-Tumble AA-Condemn AA would happen incredibly fast and be a shit ton of burst.

What does tristana get out of it? One more AA. OUT OF HER ULTIMATE. Starting to see a slight difference in power between the this ultimate and a basic ability with roughly 1/5 - 1/10 of the cooldown?

On top of all of that, she isnt the second most played ADC, that would be Varus. Tristana is currently the 6th most played ADC (out of 16) and has a win rate of 50%.

This all says nothing of how I feel about the changes. But they are trying to make her early game weaker (525 range without a way to increase it like Sivir's boomerang is really fucking bad, in case you dont play bot lane much), while keeping her lane game roughly the same.

AhristocatsFeb 24, 20187 votes

{quoted}

Id like to point out, just for some comparison, a couple things for you.

You complain her ult deals 300 damage at level 1. Ezreals does 350. And its AoE, so he can damage both players bot lane with it.

ezreal ult is not undodgeable, see the difference? ezreal also doesn't have tristana's late game scaling, him killing you in lane is not as bad as trist

{quoted}

Id also like to point out that it doesnt scale with AD. At all.

it does, because you can AA during utl cast time like vayne's E before it got removed on vayne also trist's ult isn't supposed to deal damage

but bring to her safety and utility to her team

One is on an ultimate, and one is on a basic ability.

doesn't make it balanced at all it makes a hypercarry able to burst so fcking hard a target without the target being able to do anything because you're also knocked back at the same time it also makes her able to win fights bot while being a hypercarry

Two, Vayne has True Silver Bolts. Meaning that free AA she gets to queue up gets to do all of her AD (plus crit and whatever else like on-hits), but is ALSO procs an extra stack of true silver bolts. So something like AA-Tumble AA-Condemn AA would happen incredibly fast and be a shit ton of burst.

see, that's THE EXACT SHIT tristana has right now, ton of burst because her AA triggers E damage which burst hard

What does tristana get out of it? One more AA. OUT OF HER ULTIMATE. Starting to see a slight difference in power between the this ultimate and a basic ability with roughly 1/5 - 1/10 of the cooldown?

you're missled bro or you're trying to purposely forget why it's a fcking problem

On top of all of that, she isnt the second most played ADC, that would be Varus. Tristana is currently the 6th most played ADC (out of 16) and has a win rate of 50%.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/current/platinum/plus/grid/ win rate dropped from 52 to 51%

still doesn't make it ok

This all says nothing of how I feel about the changes. But they are trying to make her early game weaker (525 range without a way to increase it like Sivir's boomerang is really fucking bad, in case you dont play bot lane much), while keeping her lane game roughly the same.

i play bot lane more than you having 525 range doesn't matter if one all in will make you DEAD because this is what is going to happen if those changes go through

DurzakaFeb 24, 20184 votes

ezreal ult is not undodgeable, see the difference? ezreal also doesn't have tristana's late game scaling, him killing you in lane is not as bad as trist

I gave Ezreal as an example because he is actually the most popular ADC right now. But on top of that, just about every ADCs ult will deal more damage than Trists. Her ults damage is where its at specifically because it cant be dodged, is single target, and has no AD scaling.

it does, because you can AA during utl cast time like vayne's E before it got removed on vayne also trist's ult isn't supposed to deal damage

In what universe is trists ult not supposed to do damage? It has literally had good damage on it since the game launched. And no, because she can queue an AA (which goes off AFTER the skill) does not mean it has AD scaling. Thats you just adding random bullshit to make your argument more viable. which it doesnt.

The rest of the post about her vs. vayne is pointless because you are so dead set in looking at Trist as satan that a discussion isnt worth shit. The fact you cant even consider the fact that a basic ability have different power from an ultimate is just hilarious.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/current/platinum/plus/grid/ win rate dropped from 52 to 51%

still doesn't make it ok

Lastly, http://www.op.gg/champion/tristana/statistics/adc

AhristocatsFeb 24, 20183 votes

{quoted}

ezreal also doesn't have tristana's late game scaling, him killing you in lane is not as bad as trist

I gave Ezreal as an example because he is actually the most popular ADC right now. But on top of that, just about every ADCs ult will deal more damage than Trists.

No Not at lvl 6 which is what makes tristana broken the high base damage is insane in laning phase and leads to insane snowballing

Her ults damage is where its at specifically because it cant be dodged, is single target, and has no AD scaling.

It has no AD scaling because it makes tristana a lane bully and gives her safety/utility in late game Does ezreal ult gives utility or safety?

fcking lol

In what universe is trists ult not supposed to do damage? It has literally had good damage on it since the game launched.

just because it has damage doesn't mean it's supposed to be primary used to deal damage janna Q deals damage do you see janna players throwing tornado to deal damage? no you don't

And no, because she can queue an AA (which goes off AFTER the skill) does not mean it has AD scaling. Thats you just adding random bullshit to make your argument more viable. which it doesnt.

except it does if you can AA during a spell it's as if the spell scales with AD because it's literally free

The rest of the post about her vs. vayne is pointless because you are so dead set in looking at Trist as satan that a discussion

i don't need to keep this discussion either all high elo players know tristana is bullshit qtpie mentioned it like 10 times in his conversation with meddler

Lastly, http://www.op.gg/champion/tristana/statistics/adc

in one server

lol ok ty bro

ArakadiaFeb 24, 20182 votes

Trist ult doesn't scale with AD just because she can auto attack during it. Thats her auto attack, not her ultimate.

D357R0Y3RFeb 24, 20182 votes

ezreal is supposed to be strong in laning phase that's why his ult has 350 damage tristana is not and was never supposed to be

everytime she was strong in laning phase she became overpowered and had her laning phase tuned down it needs to happen again

Pika FoxFeb 24, 20182 votes

Tristana was always supposed to be strong laning, strong late. Her mid game is atrocious. Shes good til level 8 or so, then one of, if not the worst, adc until she gets 3 items and enough levels to allow her passive to give her safety. She transitions from a burst ADC early to a long range hypercarry late.

OtterlyLostFeb 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Id like to point out, just for some comparison, a couple things for you.

You complain her ult deals 300 damage at level 1. Ezreals does 350. And its AoE, so he can damage both players bot lane with it. Id also like to point out that it doesnt scale with AD. At all. That is all the damage it is ever going to do, all from skill ups. Unlike other ADCs ults.

Whatever, moving on. Everyone has their titties all in a twist about the queued autoattack being taken from Vayne, and not Tristana. Literally no one is stopping to think how drastically different these 2 comparisons one. First and foremost, One is on an ultimate, and one is on a basic ability. That right there would be enough of a difference to make the argument pointless. Two, Vayne has True Silver Bolts. Meaning that free AA she gets to queue up gets to do all of her AD (plus crit and whatever else like on-hits), but is ALSO procs an extra stack of true silver bolts. So something like AA-Tumble AA-Condemn AA would happen incredibly fast and be a shit ton of burst.

What does tristana get out of it? One more AA. OUT OF HER ULTIMATE. Starting to see a slight difference in power between the this ultimate and a basic ability with roughly 1/5 - 1/10 of the cooldown?

On top of all of that, she isnt the second most played ADC, that would be Varus. Tristana is currently the 6th most played ADC (out of 16) and has a win rate of 50%.

This all says nothing of how I feel about the changes. But they are trying to make her early game weaker (525 range without a way to increase it like Sivir's boomerang is really fucking bad, in case you dont play bot lane much), while keeping her lane game roughly the same.

^ Pretty much everything here. I don't think anyone who complains about Tristana has ever tried to play her laning phase against someone like Draven or Cait or Ezreal or ANY ADC with a higher level 1 AA range. Making trades on Tristana and poking on Tristana in lane is fucking hard. She has to walk up to get AA's off, she doesn't have any spells or skillshots that go beyond her level 1 AA range, and she struggles to retaliate to anyone else who does have the range or abilities to poke her safely. There's literally nothing she can do in laning phase against sustained Poke. For that matter, there's very little she can do in teamfights, mid to late game, against poke comps if her team doesn't have some kind of engage for her to follow up. She is an ADC that is required, in laning, to go all or nothing because she has no meaningful ways of just trading. She has to have a support that can go in with her and make things happen. But at the same time, that's stupidly hard because her E keeps the wave pushed; a Leona can't tower dive the enemy laners at level 3. What happens at that point? Nothing. She's forced to just farm and hope she doesn't get ganked.

If people want some of her safety removed then I want the passive on her E removed so she doesn't end up constantly shoving lane inadvertently. She needs that safety for laning because otherwise she's just a sitting duck.

I nid a leeschFeb 24, 20186 votes

300 dmg at rank 1 is abit ridic it need to be toned down considering cassiopeia's rank 3 ult does 350 I was always wondering why she nuked my vayne welp now I know...

ArakadiaFeb 24, 20182 votes

Cass ult can deal 350 damage to everyone, actually scales with her items (Tristana ult doesn't scale with anything but AP which she doesn't buy), and is an extremely powerful CC spell.

Tristana ult is a really strong CC spell, but its entirely for disengage and a little more damage.

You can't compare a mage and ADC's ults in a vacuum.

HibekiFeb 25, 20182 votes

Tristana ult is one of THE best disengage tools and has no business being on an adc

ArakadiaFeb 25, 20181 votes

I agree. Especially on an ADC with a reset able long distance dash and some of the highest potential range in the game.

However you can't compare Cass ult and Trist ult.

CosnirakFeb 24, 20185 votes

Great job leaving your emotion out of the post and just sticking to the argument! Glad it didn't devolve into highly sarcastic rhetorical questions, logical fallacies, and treating an iteration of PBE changes like they're patch notes.

Quality post as always Rubick! [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

ArakadiaFeb 24, 20183 votes

His argument about the W buff being 70%ish more damage was pretty fitting for a Rubick post. You know, if they buffed Shen dash by 40 that would be an 80% damage increase. Just conviently ignore that this % increase goes down in later ranks, where it becomes less significant, and that the spell damage is already super low, so it being 70% increase doesn't mean anything.

If Riot buffed a Syndra ult by 70%, now that might be a little more notable.

AhristocatsFeb 24, 20183 votes

{quoted}

goes down in later ranks where it becomes less significant,

no shit? legit only talked about her laning phase BECAUSE THIS IS WHERE the spell is problematic (damage wise)

and that the spell damage is already super low, so it being 70% increase doesn't mean anything.

it does every single time high elo coachs talk about patchs they always talk about %increase not flat value

having your ult cd being increased by 1 sec when it has 180 sec cd is irrelevant having your karthus Q cd being increased by 1 sec when it has 1 sec cd is relevant

it's the same shit with +40 damage the less the damage is, the more the change is impactful, a spell going from 20 damage to 60 damage with +40 damage is insanely broken a spell going from 60 to 100 damage at lvl 1 is not broken, but significant enough to make the laning phase of tristana even more unbearable

this shouldn't even be a discussion

ArakadiaFeb 24, 20183 votes

no shit? legit only talked about her laning phase BECAUSE THIS IS WHERE the spell is problematic (damage wise)

Your manipulating your words so that it sounds worse than it is. Or your conveyed your thoughts poorly.

it does every single time high elo coachs talk about patchs they always talk about %increase not flat value having your ult cd being increased by 1 sec when it has 180 sec cd is irrelevant having your karthus Q cd being increased by 1 sec when it has 1 sec cd is relevant

Than why do you treat it like a vacuum? 70% increase on Tristana W sound way worse than +40 and you know that. Thats why you worded it that way. A 70% increase on Vayne W damage or Xayah E is crazy powerful, but on Tristana it is way less meaningful.

Besides, Tristana jumping in melee range of the enemy early on sounds like a death sentence when many supports can't/won't follow up quickly enough and she gets popped by an enemy bot lane. Do you really think this +40 buff is going to let her survive two champion's combined focus for very long?

this shouldn't even be a discussion

It really shouldn't. Your posts are full of bias and manipulative wording.

AhristocatsFeb 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Your manipulating your words so that it sounds worse than it is. Or your conveyed your thoughts poorly. every single time high elo coachs talk about patchs they always talk about %increase not flat value having your ult cd being increased by 1 sec when it has 180 sec cd is irrelevant having your karthus Q cd being increased by 1 sec when it has 1 sec cd is relevant

Than why do you treat it like a vacuum? 70% increase on Tristana W sound way worse than +40 and you know that

no i don't i worded it just like any professional that knows how numbers work would word it 70% damage increase no matter what's the base value are is an insanely impactful change that should not happen on tristana's W and if you don't like how numbers work i don't care, i won't force you to listen 70% damage increase on vayne W or xayah E is more powerful but that's not even the main discussion, the main discussion is TRISTANA W RECEIVING 70% DAMAGE INCREASE, sure there can be worse cases, but that does not make this one specially ok

Besides, Tristana jumping in melee range of the enemy early on sounds like a death sentence

do you watch tristana players? do you watch qtpie stream? in a 2v2 a tristana won't jump RIGHT AWAY but will use E Q aa you 3 or 4 times and when you're down to 40% hp she will jump slows you and in next patch deals 100 magic damage, so unless you use sums good luck to survive

Your posts are full of bias and manipulative wording.

ah the straw man, feelsgoodman :(

CosnirakFeb 24, 20182 votes

the main discussion is TRISTANA W RECEIVING 70% DAMAGE INCREASE

Try doing the math on the increase to her total damage assuming WER + 4 aa with just doran's blade at lvl 6. Until then keep your caps locked uncontextualized ranting to a minimum please.

ah the straw man, feelsgoodman :(

That's not a straw man... It would be an ad hominem I think, that is if it were an argument, but it isn't.

ArakadiaFeb 25, 20182 votes

I mean it was ad hominem, but my only argument wasn't an ad hominemn. I just included that at the end, not relying on it to invalidate his argument.

saltranFeb 24, 20184 votes

Okay, Tristana is OP right now but at the moment you said that she's a lane bully you gone too far in your bias.

AhristocatsFeb 24, 20187 votes

so what's going to happen once you give an adc 100/150 damage on a spell, a huge amount of single target damage (E, and ult 300 magic damage on impact+free AA during ult)

Leaf on BushFeb 24, 20182 votes

Obviously no other ADC has "a huge amount of single target damage" This is completely unique to Tristana... except for her E because thats actually aoe damage. /s

Kanzaki RankoFeb 24, 20184 votes

300 damage is more than a veigar ult at rank 1 by the way x d

DurzakaFeb 24, 20187 votes

Good thing Veigar's ult scales with his core stat, as well as the enemies missing HP.

RhaiFeb 24, 20183 votes

Too bad his autos don't

DurzakaFeb 25, 20182 votes

Glad that wasnt the comment that was made then, isnt it?

Or are we going to argue and compare individual parts of champion kits from completely different roles and say one is better than another?

Illâoi Evê SiônFeb 24, 20183 votes

Her ultimate cooldown nerfs are there to stay and [25 -- 8] less Attack Range is pretty important to a Marksman. The 'compensation' buff is way overkill, I agree, but I like that they're trying to give her her own identity.

FlameHalbrdOkidoFeb 24, 20183 votes

Agreed mate

You should check out this thread

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/lT3B52ki-in-my-opinion-for-marksmen-to-be-a-healthier-class-riot-should-flesh-out-their-gameplay-niche?comment=0043

Anyways Trist has 2 things going for her, LOTS of dmg in BPS and high AS

And LOTS of safety, but u already know what those sources are

Riot needs to pick: Is Trist gonna be a high dmg dealing Marksmen, or a super safe marksmen

In the past we thought marksmen were designed to deal dmg over time, it wasn't supposed to be bursty it was supposed to be consistent and if the markmen played well and u didn't deal with them they would evetually kill you This is a situation we no longer have the honor of working with with the current place of the game. But if Trist is gonna be super safe that what she needs to return to.

I'm all up for Super Safe Trist, or High Dmg Trist, just not both at the same time. So Riot needs to pick and make the necessary adjustments

ArakadiaFeb 24, 20181 votes

BPS is a poor joke that is only going to confuse people and set this level of damage as a standard.

In the past we thought marksmen were designed to deal dmg over time, it wasn't supposed to be bursty it was supposed to be consistent and if the markmen played well and u didn't deal with them they would evetually kill you

Lucian MissFortune Twitch and so on say hi! We have always had burst ADC's.

FlameHalbrdOkidoFeb 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

BPS is a poor joke that is only going to confuse people and set this level of damage as a standard.

and so on say hi! We have always had burst ADC's.

Now almost all of them are burst marksmen, thats the issue its ok if a few are within reason; as in the burst is gated in some way like CD's. The issue is when items and runes are giving all the marksmen burst dmg on EVERY AA. now the burst is BPS because its no longer gates/connected to abilities its on the AA's which used to be DPS. Lucian, MF and Twitch have to rely on abilities to reach max Burst potential and thats ok because CD's and CC can be used as counterplay, especially since most of Lucians and MF's abilities have to be aimed.

Stars ShaperFeb 24, 20182 votes

Varus still being played in LCS? Gotta buff that Trist once more!

Pika FoxFeb 24, 20182 votes

Vayne's an assassin, Trist is an ADC. Vayne auto's also proc W. Theres a reason they changed vayne auto on E and not trist auto on R.

AhristocatsFeb 24, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6NmG2TuG,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-02-24T20:37:02.994+0000)

Theres a reason they changed vayne auto on E and not trist auto on R.

yea that reason was vayne being broken at that time, and tristana being garbage

Pika FoxFeb 24, 20183 votes

No? Not really?

Vayne W procs off autos, vayne E is not an ultimate. Not to mention level 1 trist R moves them back to max auto range, so youre still in auto range.

Vayne getting a free auto mid E does more for vayne than it does for trist. The two are not comparable.

AhristocatsFeb 24, 20183 votes

yes, really? it's literally what happened at that time it's the same with talon's silence that didn't get removed at the same time than kassadin and leblanc but got removed later

vayne W procs off autos tristana's E procs off autos, have you ever had a tristana using R+AA when you had max stack of E on you? was it fun to get like 1200 damage in a fraction of second?

vayne E is not an ultimate BUT IT DOESNT EXCUSE TO GIVE TRISTANA MASSIVE BURST that can give her a reset or snowball the laning phase

Not to mention level 1 trist R moves them back to max auto range, so youre still in auto range.

who is the "them"? are you talking about a melee?are you talking about a ranged? because the ranged shouldn't be in melee range in the first place, and if they get ultied by tristana at max range tristana can still AA them during ult

Pika FoxFeb 24, 20181 votes

I didnt know that trist E did %HP true damage and trist was an assassin subclass.

AhristocatsFeb 24, 20181 votes

yea i didn't too

until i realised she could jump within 1000 range slows you, use E attack 3 times, then use ult+AA to trigger E and kill you within 1.5 sec then jumps back with a reset

the surprises you can have are really wonderfull

Pika FoxFeb 24, 20181 votes

If shes doing that, either youre extremely out of position, or your support is bad.

NorthernRedStarFeb 24, 20182 votes

Comparing Tristana to Ezreal, lmao.

You can dodge almost everything Ezreal throws at you. You can't dodge anything safe for Tristana's jump (with a dash), which has MASSIVE AoE.

Ezreal's ult has higher base damage, sure. It only gets reduced by 70% if you fire it through a wave, unlike Tristana's. Sure, it can be dodged as well, having a hefty windup, unlike Tristana's. Sure, Ezreal's E instantly resets on kill AND on every 5th auto. Oh wait, that's Tristana.

On top of ALL THIS, she outranges Ezreal, outpushes Ezreal, and outscales Ezreal (by a massive amount). Ezreal might be annoying, but at least that focker has some clear-defined counterplay to him. Tristana has NONE. She's the poster girl for EVERYTHING that is wrong with ADCs right now.