@Meddler any news on potential Nasus changes next season?

HateDaddy·Sep 13, 2016·28 votes·8,770 views

Many Nasus players feel he doesn't feel rewarding for how risky of a pick he is. While many of us can still be successful on him, it's not the way we'd prefer as its a really cheesey and unhealthy way to play (low interaction afk split pushing). Many of us want changes to him but realize straight buffs may be out of the question. He's an ancient champion with an old design, I think he needs several big changes to bring him up to par in today's game in a healthy way.

Sup

73 Comments

RiotMeddlerSep 13, 201629 votes

I think it's pretty likely we'll do some small scope work on him sometime later this year. Probably more just general balance stuff, or small functionality tweaks, than any form of rework though. He's probably a bit weak at present, current assessment is that he's got a reasonable decent core to him though.

HateDaddySep 13, 20167 votes

{quoted}

I think it's pretty likely we'll do some small scope work on him sometime later this year. Probably more just general balance stuff, or small functionality tweaks, than any form of rework though. He's probably a bit weak at present, current assessment is that he's got a reasonable decent core to him though.

One more thing:

For your future work, have you considered a percentage heal in his kit instead of bland lifesteal. This accomplishes a few things:

It lets him actually heal off of front lines

Probably also gives him more depth to an otherwise really bland lane phase

And would sub class of fighter would you consider him? He's weird, he's like old ryze in that he's an off tank damage dealer.

WyrmbladeSep 13, 201622 votes

He's definitely a Juggernaut.

HateDaddySep 13, 20162 votes

{quoted}

He's definitely a Juggernaut.

u rite

AnonagonSep 14, 20161 votes

tho hatedaddy

TurquoiseYoshiSep 14, 201616 votes

In fact, he was the proto-juggernaut. The original standard of juggernaut that the reworked juggernauts were made to be like.

Only Play DariusSep 14, 201613 votes

Until he got powercreeped by the new juggernauts

WarlordTimSep 14, 20161 votes

that was a year ago. time flies.

Only Play DariusSep 14, 20161 votes

Fuck.

Rinky DinkySep 14, 20161 votes

I feel like if he had % max health scaling of some kind he would fit right in, Potentially his passive lifesteal is where it could be implemented.

Meep ManSep 14, 20163 votes

Yeah, what's a 1000 damage basic attack when Darius' Q does about the same amount of damage late game due to his passive and good scaling.

TequilaZombieSep 14, 20163 votes

What? 1k damage on Darius Q?

Being hit by the blade deals 160+140% AD.

This means darius would need 600 AD to deal 1k damage on his Q. With his passive stacked up (which should not be the case late game unless you got dunked) he has 341 AD. He still needs 259 AD from items to do that, basicly having to go full AD to reach that. In which case, he's squishy as fuck and can be burst down in little more than a second.

EDIT: Typed the Q damage wrong (put the shaft scaling with blade base damage), but the calculations were made with the right numbers. Already fixed the typo.

Only Play DariusSep 14, 20162 votes

He was exaggerating about the 1k damage, but Darius's Q still hurts, hits in an AOE, heals him and doesn't require him to be in melee range nor spend half the game charging it up and not helping the team, it is simply superior to Nasus's Q in all but 1v1 situations.

TequilaZombieSep 14, 20161 votes

Nasus' Q still deals more damage than Darius' Q. Darius is a superior team fighter (at least in most situations), but Nasus' concept is the one of a raid Boss.

Sure, you can kite him to hell and back and avoid him all you want, but if you ever have to go through him you're going to have plenty of problems.

Tychusfindlay919Sep 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

What? 1k damage on Darius Q?

Being hit by the blade deals 160+70% AD.

This means darius would need 600 AD to deal 1k damage on his Q. With his passive stacked up (which should not be the case late game unless you got dunked) he has 341 AD. He still needs 259 AD from items to do that, basicly having to go full AD to reach that. In which case, he's squishy as fuck and can be burst down in little more than a second.

FYI The %total AD scale on decimate increases with level. Rethink this post.

Youre taking the shaft total ad scaling at max level, you should be taking the blade for your calculations. Heres the formula.

160(+140% total AD) = X

TequilaZombieSep 14, 20161 votes

Typed it wrong, but used the right formula. Thx for pointing it out, tho.

My Waifu VanillaSep 14, 20162 votes

The problem is he falls in line with Yorick a bit more than the rest of the Juggernaut cast. Both are immobile as hell, but offer very little in terms of inherent "bulk". Garen has %DR on W along with free Armor/MR (and I suppose we can through Perseverance for sustain), Darius and Illaoi both have actual healing in their kit that scales extremely well (with max HP), and Morde has decent sustain all things considered with W and R.

Yorick and Nasus, albeit immobile, really don't have much to aid them by being immoble melees. Yes, Nasus has wither, but a slow (although 99%) will never match up to any form of hard CC AND he has to get in range to Wither (and with his big hitbox during ult it is fairly easy to disengage him with something like Thresh Flay/Hook). Nasus and Yorick also just have 0 defensive steroids in their entire kit and have rather poor heal scalings (Yorick's simply doesn't scale and Nasus gets his destroyed by Armor even with relatively good stacks).

Meep ManSep 14, 20161 votes

I hope one day he gets the base stats to match that description

Malicious MetalSep 13, 20168 votes

Percentage heals seem to be the trend with Juggernauts anyways who need to invest in a ton of health.

RiotMeddlerSep 14, 20166 votes

Definitely feel he's a juggernaut.

Some form of pre mitigation heal's a possibility I could see, don't think it's been discussed so far though. Thanks for the suggestion.

Swiftstrike4Sep 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Definitely feel he's a juggernaut.

Some form of pre mitigation heal's a possibility I could see, don't think it's been discussed so far though. Thanks for the suggestion.

I think Nasus should have an passive on his Siphoning strike that grants him some type of additional tenacity per stack count (say 1% per 100 stacks). This will reward a well stacked Nasus that has say 600 stacks in the mid-game with 6% additional tenacity. I also think the amount is low enough that he doesn't get too much tenacity but it is probably high enough to make a bit of a difference in terms of getting perpetually kited.. Rarely will games go to 1000 stacks in which he gets 10% additional tenacity where it may have a significant difference.

XxxLumberJackxxXSep 14, 20161 votes

His whole kit feels outdated to me. I vote for new e and r

Photos of GhostsSep 14, 20163 votes

Pleeeease change his ult to % damage reduction, or %HP increase, so he can feel better about buying HP...

Relinquisher07Sep 14, 20161 votes

Can you guys touch on Illoai? I understand the dream for that champ, but that dream is actually just inevitable given how tanky the champ is with AOE damage rivaling the top mages in the game. It just seems like you can never engage the enemy team with an Illaoi on it because she just ults and gets a pentakill, theres little to no counterplay in lane due to the massive AOE damage, and in teamfights theres just no way to fight her. Its just kinda toxic to play against when you feel like theres no way you can safely take a teamfight...

GayFluffyUnicornSep 14, 20161 votes

Counterplay in lane: Walk in ult, step out, beat her to death.

JnFnRuSep 14, 20162 votes

He should still get his q proc on Turrets removed......

GayFluffyUnicornSep 14, 20163 votes

Why`? How else is D Cane supposed to put it down and run it down top?

Swiftstrike4Sep 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I think it's pretty likely we'll do some small scope work on him sometime later this year. Probably more just general balance stuff, or small functionality tweaks, than any form of rework though. He's probably a bit weak at present, current assessment is that he's got a reasonable decent core to him though.

Thank you for the response! I am happy to hear this!

KilljoyXSep 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I think it's pretty likely we'll do some small scope work on him sometime later this year. Probably more just general balance stuff, or small functionality tweaks, than any form of rework though. He's probably a bit weak at present, current assessment is that he's got a reasonable decent core to him though.

In light of the nerfs to life steal quints and LS in the tree do you think you could revert the nerfs to his passive?

arghilostSep 14, 20164 votes

Hello, one of probably like 5~ D1+ nasus players here.

I agree with this assessment, he doesnt need any number buffs and he is fair to play against and as with clear strengths/weaknesses.

I suggest tuning his utility higher so hes still useful when behind, or lowering mana costs slightly so he isn't pigeonholed into certain builds. Nothing feels worse then playing against an AP top being forced into a visage/merc rush and having no mana items so you go OOM in 2 spell rounds.

Giving a little range back on his wither would also help a lot. As it is now you can't really wither anyone significant without putting yourself in huge danger in team fights

Great OzymandiusSep 14, 20161 votes

Since you are a D1 Nasus player, how do you deal with off-meta AP top lane picks?

Specifically, I remember one game I was laning against a leblanc, which is kind of a troll pick. If my jungler ganked early it would have been an easy lane but the jungler did not come. 1v1 I had no idea how to deal with leblanc's harass early without going oom or losing out on q stacks. Because I got harassed so hard and couldn't q stack, I never scaled up and she destroyed me.

Likewise, I've played Cass into Nasus and completely destroyed him. It felt like such a hard counter I had no idea what Nasus could have done to deal with me without jungler intervention. Between Rylais, ult, and dps unaffected by attack speed debuffs, I could kite him and whittle him down at all stages of the game. Nothing he could do.

arghilostSep 14, 20163 votes

I would need to see a replay because its either a gameplay issue or a got camped issue. I've played the LB lane many times, its pretty free once you have cowl/mercs.

She full combos you, it does about half your hp, you dont panic and just pop potion and q a few times, and your full hp before her ult comes up again. It's basically impossible to die unless you panic and run off the wave after she ults and dont heal from minions.

Cass is a pretty hard lane but she cant kill you unless you misplay. Shes easily ganked by wither so just wait for that, if it doesnt come farm lane.

Great OzymandiusSep 14, 20161 votes

Thanks. What runes and masteries would you take versus leblanc? Also, what was your starting item? Do you have a video of you playing versus a leblanc per chance? I'm pretty sure I either didn't have enough mr in my rune page (had a cheeze cdr runepage) or I simply played poorly. I'd like to see how you position yourself, manage the wave, etc.

arghilostSep 14, 20162 votes

I always take 12-0-18, switching between grasp and the health/damage reduction depending on MU. For ranged MUs I basically never take grasp. Rest of masteries should be pretty obvious theres not much choice.

and I run a very basic page with no CD in it, because I itemize the CD so its a waste. You cant spam early game anyway. I just take standard AD/ health per level yellow/mr blues against AP.

I play on a laptop so dont have anything like that unfortunately

Great OzymandiusSep 14, 20161 votes

Thanks!

SlashStrikerSep 14, 20161 votes

if he is too weak at present how bout you give him stacks to his [Q] on champion and epic monsters takedowns

Great OzymandiusSep 14, 20162 votes

I think Nasus needs a way to quickly push the wave without sacrificing q-stacks.

That is, when a big wave is pushing Nasus' tower top, and the enemy top laner tp's bot, Nasus has three choices: 1) stack q, and fail to provide any value for the team; 2) fast push the wave (don't get much q farm) to threaten enemy turrets; 3) tp bot, miss q farm (Nasus will probably add less to the ensuing teamfight than his laning opponent did, so he misses his q-farm without contributing very much to the teamfight).

This doesn't feel like a meaningful choice. This feels like a lose-lose-lose situation. The trade-off between 1 and 2 is really counter-intuitive b/c Nasus currently works by split-pushing but the q-farming mechanic doesn't want him to push hard when he has the lane to himself. This trade-off is particularly unforgiving because of his weird powercurve -- he is a weak early game champion who also falls off hard at around the 28th minute because of his crap teamfighting.

Maybe you could change spirit fire so that any minions in spirit fire killed by nasus but not by spirit fire would go to his q stacks. So when his enemy leaves lane, Nasus could throw down spirit fire, use IBG or titanic hydra to quickly clear the creeps and pressure objectives without losing q-farm. But This change wouldn't allow Nasus to farm creeps at range with spirit fire and wouldn't help nasus q-farm under tower early game very much.

If you don't make this change you will need to improve his teamfighting, so he doesn't fall off so hard come 30 minutes. For example, either [1] give him %armor pen somewhere in his kit so he can damage the enemy frontline in teamfights (currently, in teamfights he can't get to the backline but his q-stacking is meaningless versus tanks in a teamfight b/c of all the armor and Nasus' inability to itemize effectively for armor pen); [2] give Nasus some sort of conditional mobility or tenacity, probably which only kicks in late game (this way he can get to the backline in teamfights. You might tie the mobility to his q-stacking this way you don't end up buffing his early game); [3] give Nasus some innate tanking steroids, such as damage reduction on his ult (so he can more effectively serve as a front-line in teamfights); [4] give Nasus more cc in his kit, so he can function as a sort of warden in teamfights (e.g., grounded debuff in his spirit-fire).

I really don't know which would be the best course of action. It would be fun to see each one of these on the PBE to see which one works out but I guess you don't do it that way.

In any case, you either need to allow him to split-push faster without sacrificing q-stacks or you need to improve his late game teamfighting.

Swiftstrike4Sep 13, 20163 votes

I think Nasus just needs modest base stat adjustments. Even just some itemization changes, such as more tenacity on merc treads, would really go a long way. I wish the keystone masteries were a bit better on him.

I don't think he needs any significant changes. Just some minor tweaks. I think the pace of the game speeding up and the amount of on-hit slows int he game have made him, along with all the other juggernauts, pretty weak this season.

When they address item 3116 I think his win rate will improve. Buffing item 3110 or just item 3024 will help as well.

Edit: I appreciate the efforts to bring Nasus adjustments to the forefront to riot. There are too few Nasus mains.

I can say also that if they significantly changed the fundamentals of his kit I would stop playing league entirely probably. I still think his kit is playable in today's league.

HateDaddySep 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I think Nasus just needs modest base stat adjustments. Even just some itemization changes, such as more tenacity on merc treads, would really go a long way. I wish the keystone masteries were a bit better on him.

I don't think he needs any significant changes. Just some minor tweaks. I think the pace of the game speeding up and the amount of on-hit slows int he game have made him, along with all the other juggernauts, pretty weak this season.

When they address I think his win rate will improve. Buffing or just will help as well.

Juggernauts like Darius and Illaoi are pretty good right now actually. We are in a bruiser/tank meta in top lane tbh.

As for Nasus, I'm a long time Nasus player and I am at the point where I'm afraid buffs could be a mistake. And there's so many things riot has done that has indirectly hurt him (and many of these things can't be changed either) that simply buffing hkm potentially turns him into the stat stick nobody is able to overcome. I'd just prefer some game play updates, make his my better but make it more healthy.

Swiftstrike4Sep 13, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Juggernauts like Darius and Illaoi are pretty good right now actually. We are in a bruiser/tank meta in top lane tbh.

As for Nasus, I'm a long time Nasus player and I am at the point where I'm afraid buffs could be a mistake. And there's so many things riot has done that has indirectly hurt him (and many of these things can't be changed either) that simply buffing hkm potentially turns him into the stat stick nobody is able to overcome. I'd just prefer some game play updates, make his my better but make it more healthy.

I think the mastery changes really hurt him while helping most other champions. That, and the collection of several itemization nerfs, hurt him as well. I am starting to find him harder to play the more I climb, but I haven't hit a complete wall. I imagine in Diamond though he is very tough to play. I watch Sirhcez struggle with him despite stacking well and winning lane because the CC opposing teams is so high.

Carnarius sometimes posts on the forums and most of his comments regarding Nasus are really on point and thoughtful. I haven't seen him posting in awhile though he has been requesting Nasus buff for almost this entire season.

These threads always get downvoted, but I really think there should be a discussion regarding this champion because I think he is a "game health" champion. Nasus should be at, or close too, 50% win rate. If he isn't there is probably some type of gross game imbalance. Other champions that I think should float at 50% are Annie Amumu Jax Lux Morgana Tryndamere XinZhao Thresh Sivir Warwick Ezreal .

I think that whenever these champions get too high or too low something is off in the game.

AlutrositySep 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I think the mastery changes really hurt him while helping most other champions. That, and the collection of several itemization nerfs, hurt him as well. I am starting to find him harder to play the more I climb, but I haven't hit a complete wall. I imagine in Diamond though he is very tough to play. I watch Sirhcez struggle with him despite stacking well and winning lane because the CC opposing teams is so high.

Carnarius sometimes posts on the forums and most of his comments regarding Nasus are really on point and thoughtful. I haven't seen him posting in awhile though he has been requesting Nasus buff for almost this entire season.

These threads always get downvoted, but I really think there should be a discussion regarding this champion because I think he is a "game health" champion. should be at, or close too, 50% win rate. If he isn't there is probably some type of gross game imbalance. Other champions that I think should float at 50% are .

I think that whenever these champions get too high or too low something is off in the game.

This is interesting information. Could you elaborate on a few of those champions and explain how they indicate another champion may be off balance? I've found that during metas where assassins become popular, my winrates with Swain and Trundle increase as they are particularly good at both denying and shutting them down, which is why I play them to begin with.

Swiftstrike4Sep 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

This is interesting information. Could you elaborate on a few of those champions and explain how they indicate another champion may be off balance? I've found that during metas where assassins become popular, my winrates with Swain and Trundle increase as they are particularly good at both denying and shutting them down, which is why I play them to begin with.

Most of the champions in that list have relatively simple kits. They are all low skill-cap aside from Thresh , meaning that most players can pick them up and be relatively proficient with them pretty quickly. They are the "generic" or "middle ground" or "model" champion for their role. Mechanically, they are simple and have lower amount of skill shots than perhaps the average champion and very simple skills that don't involve an additional passive for the skill to consider. A Tryndamere that is silver vs. one that is Gold is not going to have much of a mechanical advantage. Even if the gold player understandz the game better, makes better decisions, can trade better, and lane better, the gold player is winning because he is better at placing a well-timed skill shot in a precise location.

This also means that most players across all elos should be able to perform adequately with these champions without too much practice due to their simplicity. Annie mains in bronze will probably have a higher win rate overall than say a bronze Annie main because annie has a kit that leaves less room for mechanical error. This doesn't mean Annie's will have above a 50% win rate all the time, but it should be higher than the norm due to the champions simplicity and most players because able to effectively use her regardless of how frequently they play the champion. Most champions in league do not float in the 50% win rate, infact it usually is around 1/3 to 1/4 are 50% or higher. Many of the champions that consistently have higher win rates typically the simple ones with high utility see Amumu .

All these champions I think have a clear identity for specific roles for the most part. By this I mean an itemization changes are not going to drastically alter how they play, how often they are selected, what role they play, and their overall strength. They have relatively flexible build paths, moderate damage, and high utility.

A current example is the recent buff to Rylais which pushed champions such as Anivia and Velkoz into high win rates, but champions such as Annie Lux and Morgana are relatively unaffected by it being buff due to their kits and their win rates have remained about the same while first three have gone up.

I think Nasus falls into the category of a generic top lane tank that can also do damage. Rarely do items significantly effect his strength compared to other top laners. The recent buffs to item 3078 did help him, but it was relatively lower than how much it helped other champions whose play and win rate were more significantly impacted Irelia and Hecarim being two notable examples. And more recently the tank Yasuo and Ekko builds.

There are probably other champions that I think fall into this category, but it just seems for the most part almost all these champions have always been "good" or "adequate" regardless of the Elo. They are all good at what they were designed to do and are played frequently for there simplicity and utility. They are rarely overpowered but are rarely too weak.

I think in the case of Nasus his falling win rate suggests something is off with top lane itemization or the general state of the top lane.

Those are my thoughts though and I think right now currently the ADC and Support Tanks are very even in terms of their game health which is why I didn't list quite as many. I think all of them are pretty well-tuned and not dramatically effected by itemization changes or their role changing. Sivir is pretty balanced has almost always been viable a long with Ezreal in the bot lane. Recent outliers are KogMaw and Twitch who have both moved to the jungle due to bloodrazer.

Great OzymandiusSep 14, 20162 votes

I think Nasus just needs modest base stat adjustments.

I think this is the wrong solution. Sure, you can make any champion strong with sufficiently good base stats. But Nasus' kit has issues that need to be addressed.

He has a weird power curve. He has a crap early game (fine with me) where he needs to very effectively farm, but he also has crap late-game teamfighting and his q-stacking mechanic doesn't want him to roam midgame. So he has a power-spike midgame and falls off hard late game but he is forced to used his midgame power-spike to splitpush. However, he's not great at pushing the wave and sacrifices q-stacks if he used titanic, IBG, or sunfire to quickly push the wave.

So you have a champion who is shit late game, shit early game, can't roam midgame, and doesn't want to push waves fast midgame.

This needs to be fixed either by allowing him to fast-push a lane without sacrificing q-stacks or by improving his kit to allow better teamfighting (e.g., conditional mobility, damage reduction on ult, %armor pen somewhere in his kit, more defensive utility, something...)

Swiftstrike4Sep 14, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Ozymandius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6KwQYcZG,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2016-09-14T17:44:15.963+0000)

I think this is the wrong solution. Sure, you can make any champion strong with sufficiently good base stats. But Nasus' kit has issues that need to be addressed.

He has a weird power curve. He has a crap early game (fine with me) where he needs to very effectively farm, but he also has crap late-game teamfighting and his q-stacking mechanic doesn't want him to roam midgame. So he has a power-spike midgame and falls off hard late game but he is forced to used his midgame power-spike to splitpush. However, he's not great at pushing the wave and sacrifices q-stacks if he used titanic, IBG, or sunfire to quickly push the wave.

So you have a champion who is shit late game, shit early game, can't roam midgame, and doesn't want to push waves fast midgame.

This needs to be fixed either by allowing him to fast-push a lane without sacrificing q-stacks or by improving his kit to allow better teamfighting (e.g., conditional mobility, damage reduction on ult, %armor pen somewhere in his kit, more defensive utility, something...)

He has terrible base stats, especially health, in comparison to other top laners and juggernauts. Once the mastery's were changed, he received a soft nerf because he couldn't overload the defensive tree with mastery points to make his base stats serviceable in the early game. I had to rearrange my rune pages multiple times with defensive runes in order to find an OK combination for just the early game immediately after the change.

With spirit fire in tandem with item 3025 he is pretty good at split-pushing. Also at that point ins the game Nasus shouldn't be completely focused on stacking Qs, because he needs to be helping the team close out the games. The games where I have 800+ stacks are typically the games I lose the most frequently because at that point the opposing team knows how to deal with me in a fight.

You have about 15-20 minutes to just farm with Nasus. After that you have to start making decisions in the game and exert map pressure. You can't simply farm the whole game for an insane stack count, if you do you are not going to win many games in general, but you won't win many games with Nasus . Whenever I play against a Nasus, I know exactly what I should do. Let Nasus AFK farm and group early with my team to take objectives. That way the opposing team is playing from behind early or most of the game early.

Edit: I can get behind Nasus gaining % mobility or % tenacity based on his stack count. I have been advocating this for months. But I don't think his kit needs much, if any alteration. Maybe wither's range should be increased to make it easier for him to gap close.

If Nasus is overtuned all we will see is hard Nasus counter picks or ranged champions in the top lane again.

Second Edit: I think Nasus is a decision-making champion with a simple kit. The better you are at making decisions in the game, the higher you will climb with Nasus. I think Nasus teaches basic farm mechanics, patience, and how players can make difficult choices. I really like that about him and I feel other champions do not condition players with the same skills.

I do think that if his ultimate even gave him a defensive steroid or increased tenacity that would be good as well. His kit is centered around Q, meaning that any changes to his kit should also center around Q or you can change the identity of the champion.

Great OzymandiusSep 14, 20162 votes

I have only minor disagreements with what you have said. But I still think Riot needs to do something with Nasus' power curve, which base stats will not fix. They either need to tune his kit so he does better at his role as a dedicated splitpusher or they need to improve his teamfight with something other than damage. I agree, tying mobility/tenacity to q-stacks is a good way to maintain his identity while also allowing him to teamfight late game. Other options would include: [1] %armor pen on spirit fire as a function of q-stacks, this way his damage versus tanks on the frontline of teamfights is non-negligible; [2] something like a grounded debuff on spirit fire so he can warden for carries in teamfights or can get to more slippery champions such as ezreal or lucian (this would not affect nasus in lane or splitpushing very much at all); [3] have wither range increase with q-stacks (they nerfed wither range because of op nasus ganks back in the day. Tying wither range to q stacks gets around that balance issue); [4] % damage reduction on ultimate as a function of q-stacks (This would not affect his early laning but would allow him to tank a non-trivial amount of damage in teamfights. Currently, Full-tank Nasus will die charging the enemy backline in a teamfight b/c he gets kited and isn't able to lifesteal off anyone. Making him a little harder to kill when his ult is up would make him a more valuable front-line champion).

Swiftstrike4Sep 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Ozymandius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6KwQYcZG,comment-id=0003000100000000,timestamp=2016-09-14T20:31:55.417+0000)

[1] %armor pen on spirit fire as a function of q-stacks, this way his damage versus tanks on the frontline of teamfights is non-negligible; [2] something like a grounded debuff on spirit fire so he can warden for carries in teamfights or can get to more slippery champions such as ezreal or lucian (this would not affect nasus in lane or splitpushing very much at all); [3] have wither range increase with q-stacks (they nerfed wither range because of op nasus ganks back in the day. Tying wither range to q stacks gets around that balance issue); [4] % damage reduction on ultimate as a function of q-stacks (This would not affect his early laning but would allow him to tank a non-trivial amount of damage in teamfights.

Edit: Didn't realize I wrote so much. Ha.

I can get behind flat armor pen as a function of spirit fire increasing base on stack count but I don't know in what capacity. It would have to be really low with a hard cap. Percentage armor penetration on anything seems really strong and can be misused I think. I like how E shreds armor and maybe simply increasing the armor shred would be enough. Imagine if he drops a spirit fire on an ADC with % armor penetration? It shreds the little armor than have the ADC can easily be blown up.

I think point 2 could be too strong. In tandem with wither I think it would make Nasus virtually inescapable and I think that would be highly problematic. Nasus would just be banned a lot by top laners, not because he is strong, but because laners wouldn't want to deal with him. Similar to Darius or Illaoi who see a lot of bans but are not over powered champions.

3 I can get behind wither range increased based on a q stack count. But there would need to be a hard cap to it. I think wither's range should simply be increased flat by 25- 100 in general.

I think the 4th suggestion might be the best one. But there is something one needs to consider which is "what if Nasus builds full damage?" While this may not happen early on, if Nasus gains any type of defensive buff while using his ultimate, players may recognize they don't need to build full tank. This is currently the situation we have with Kled who has a massive health pool and can build straight assassin if he wants due to it. I think a defensive steroid would be good overall, but it can't be too high.

I really think increased mobility/tenacity solves almost all of Nasus' issues without making him too strong. Any type of significant kit revision is unnecessary with most of the people's suggesting such things (in this thread) do not even playing Nasus a lot. I play Nasus A LOT. I logged in enough games to get over a 1.3 million mastery score with him and I can say when you play him you really can recognize little things that are problematic with him.

When I feel completely helpless with a lot of stacks in the late game in the post 35 minute mark, that is a problem. When I have to sit and patiently wait for the opponent to make a mistake, by overextending when I have 600-700 stacks, that's a problem. When I play into a typical comp of Amumu Ekko Taliyah Lucian Braum (which is not an uncommon comp) and I can't even GET NEAR THEM without being chain CC'd or slowed, that's a problem.

I guess I am erring on the side of caution with overtuning him because I think really minor changes could make him a bit too strong and a ban candidate. My point is at this time last year Nasus was at about 50% win rate (pretty high for most champions).

I think the question we should be asking is "why did his win rate fall?" rather than "how can his kit change to bring his win rate up?"

I think his win rate largely fell because of his ability to be kited is higher now than in the past with mobility on items seeing minor nerfs, mastery changes, several nerfs to items that he built, and the increase in slow items such as item 3022 item 3025 and item 3116 .

And when you think "well he should have a really poor win rate if that's the case" the reality is he doesn't. It is on the lower end, but by no means is it low. Which is why I think just solving the mobility/gap close issue he has, but still making him kitable (like all other juggs) will alleviate a lot of his problems, even in higher elo.

HateDaddySep 13, 20161 votes

Medlar plis

AlutrositySep 13, 20162 votes

Nasus is like the tanky equivalent of Kog'Maw in regards to needing to have a comp built around him. You need champions who can get gold mostly through farm, and denial of kills, this way the game stretches out and allows Nasus to Q-Farm until 20 minutes into the game. Camping a Nasus' lane is extraordinarily easy due to his wither which will practically guarantee a flash during a gank, and a smart Nasus will typically allow the jungler to take the kill as it allows Nasus to not only continue farming, but empowers the jungler to place stronger pressure elsewhere, distracting the enemy team from Nasus' steady accumulation of power.

I find a mobile ADC like Ezreal, Lucian, or Quinn are perfect because during teamfights Nasus' wither is ridonkulous, and all three of those ADCs can stick very well. Throw in a mid laner such as Malzahar, Swain, or any mage who builds hp like Lissandra for extra cc and more in-your-face team fighting potential which Nasus thrives upon, then grab a support with a lot of disruption and lockdown namely Thresh, Alistar, or Nautilus, or Leona. With the jungler, I'd go Jarvan for AoE armor reduction with the initial burst from cataclysm + black cleaver + Q synergizing with Nasus' flat armor shred that comes from spirit fire, or a movement speed mobility champ like Hecarim for his ult to disable their ability to flee temporarily and ensure more AoE, or Udyr who is the stun machine and can provide a secondary source of magic damage should he choose to use phoenix stance.

In other words, an aggressive bruiser-fighter comp with mid-to-high cc should fit him nicely, and while I don't necessarily ordain champions only being viable in or overly reliant on compositions due to my belief that all champions should be capable of functioning by themselves in lane, the most successful teams imo come from a comp revolving around one champion as it focuses the goals of the players better.

That said, try lifesteal Quints on Nasus. A more offensive option for veteran Nasus players I hear is stormraider's surge as it causes his stickiness to become simply broken mid-to-late game. Bond of stone for the tankier Nasus as his only damage item ideally should be trinity force. I don't know I feel about strength of the ages or grasp of the undying. GoTUD doesn't seem as strong as I want it to be, and strength of the ages is better as a jungle mastery for tanks and bruisers.

Tychusfindlay919Sep 13, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Nasus is like the tanky equivalent of Kog'Maw in regards to needing to have a comp built around him. You need champions who can get gold mostly through farm, and denial of kills, this way the game stretches out and allows Nasus to Q-Farm until 20 minutes into the game. Camping a Nasus' lane is extraordinarily easy due to his wither which will practically guarantee a flash during a gank, and a smart Nasus will typically allow the jungler to take the kill as it allows Nasus to not only continue farming, but empowers the jungler to place stronger pressure elsewhere, distracting the enemy team from Nasus' steady accumulation of power.

I find a mobile ADC like Ezreal, Lucian, or Quinn are perfect because during teamfights Nasus' wither is ridonkulous, and all three of those ADCs can stick very well. Throw in a mid laner such as Malzahar, Swain, or any mage who builds hp like Lissandra for extra cc and more in-your-face team fighting potential which Nasus thrives upon, then grab a support with a lot of disruption and lockdown namely Thresh, Alistar, or Nautilus, or Leona. With the jungler, I'd go Jarvan for AoE armor reduction with the initial burst from cataclysm + black cleaver + Q synergizing with Nasus' flat armor shred that comes from spirit fire, or a movement speed mobility champ like Hecarim for his ult to disable their ability to flee temporarily and ensure more AoE, or Udyr who is the stun machine and can provide a secondary source of magic damage should he choose to use phoenix stance.

In other words, an aggressive bruiser-fighter comp with mid-to-high cc should fit him nicely, and while I don't necessarily ordain champions only being viable in or overly reliant on compositions due to my belief that all champions should be capable of functioning by themselves in lane, the most successful teams imo come from a comp revolving around one champion as it focuses the goals of the players better.

That said, try lifesteal Quints on Nasus. A more offensive option for veteran Nasus players I hear is stormraider's surge as it causes his stickiness to become simply broken mid-to-late game. Bond of stone for the tankier Nasus as his only damage item ideally should be trinity force. I don't know I feel about strength of the ages or grasp of the undying. GoTUD doesn't seem as strong as I want it to be, and strength of the ages is better as a jungle mastery for tanks and bruisers.

Except kogmaw shreds everything.

A nasus with 1000 stacks will still tickle tanks since he never builds pen and the best he has going for him in terms of penetration is a flat pen which recks squishies but hardly shreds the frontline (which is who he interacts with the most like any other juggernaut).

GayFluffyUnicornSep 14, 20161 votes

Well just play crit nasus then and oneshot tanks with his pimp cane