@Meddler, context of Kalista nerfs?

Masala Chai·Mar 9, 2016·7 votes·8,005 views

I realize that Kalista is hated by most of the melee/ bruiser crowd in League of Legends, but you've nerfed Kalista a fair bit through out Season V, and she already has 2 nerfs (with 5 more on the PBE) under her belt. People were questioning nerfs even as far back when you reduced her damage scaling to 90% on autos and crits. If anything, I would nerf the dash distance on her passive. ** Current nerfs on PBE** -Attack speed growth reduced to 2.5 from 3 -Base attack speed changed to 0.644 from 0.694 W- [new mechanic] Kalista now gains [9 + 1 % per level] attack speed when near her Oathsworn.

Active's lap reduced to 3 from 7.
Sentinel proc reduced from 10% to 5% max health (you missed this Moobeat) R- Fate's Call
Cast range lowered to 1000 from 1400

Plz don't downvote me bcuz u hate Kalista. I drink her blood as Twitch.

62 Comments

RiotMeddlerMar 9, 201619 votes

Kalista's too strong. For a champion who's effectiveness is intended to be interwoven more than usual with a team mate's she's also pretty self sufficient. We're exploring ways to both tighten the Oathsworn connection and remove some power as a result.

Masala ChaiMar 9, 20161 votes

Alright, thank you. That was very nice of you to make a very quick response.

Can you also provide me some context on Twitch, and what you think of him? I feel he feels like the same boat you put Swain and Talon in as he is fairly strong right now, but has a fairly low playrate. Am I wrong with that?

AbyssphereMar 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Kalista's too strong. For a champion who's effectiveness is intended to be interwoven more than usual with a team mate's she's also pretty self sufficient. We're exploring ways to both tighten the Oathsworn connection and remove some power as a result.

Weren't your last nerfs to Kalista prior to the recent mana adjustment on Rend designed to reduce her dependence on the oathsworn because you guys liked her being a self-sufficient marksman?

It seems like these nerfs are trying to push her back into the direction of "good when oathsworn isn't present, also great when they are" whereas before the team made a fairly big deal out of wanting to focus her power on her self-peel.

Masala ChaiMar 9, 20161 votes

" We're still forming a more nuanced opinion of Kalista in this new season, and will keep an eye out."

I guess they're trying things out.

AscendedxBladeMar 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Kalista's too strong. For a champion who's effectiveness is intended to be interwoven more than usual with a team mate's she's also pretty self sufficient. We're exploring ways to both tighten the Oathsworn connection and remove some power as a result.

no blue ez and corki are strong kalista needs another champ to be strong

Petrushka4Mar 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

no blue ez and corki are strong kalista needs another champ to be strong

Blue ez are ridiculous and didn't get nerf while lux got nerf with the same reason...

ShadowParkerMar 9, 20161 votes

This makes me happy.

RavenHuskyMar 9, 20161 votes

~~Would you also be able to explain why Lux's shield was hit so hard?~~

Never mind, Ricklessabandon responded to me on reddit.

AltricadMar 9, 20161 votes

[deleted]

Masala ChaiMar 9, 20163 votes

He has general nerfs coming this patch.

SilverclawMar 9, 20168 votes

Just leaving this here, but as long as Kalista has her current passive, she will ALWAYS be self-sufficient.

Von RevanchistMar 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Kalista's too strong. For a champion who's effectiveness is intended to be interwoven more than usual with a team mate's she's also pretty self sufficient. We're exploring ways to both tighten the Oathsworn connection and remove some power as a result.

The nerfs are fine, however the oathsworn "tightening" is not. When I play by myself, it already sucks that half my kit is in the hands of a random que player. Sometimes me and my support don't work that great together(not in a toxic way, just in that we have different ideas on what to do) and I'm stuck without the use of my W and ult majority of the match because we are never on the same page. I really liked the fact that I had some self sufficient power so I can be useful in a skirmish by myself. Now I feel like I'm gonna be on a leash the entire match to someone that I just don't click with because I will be gimping myself by hopping solo.

Angry MonsterMar 9, 20163 votes

That is the risk of picking kalista. Sounds like you are more about abusing her mobility than using her team work enhancing strengths. I personally think this is a good push for kalista, she should be gated by having her oath sworn near by.

I am not sure what the range is (since that was documented) but it should be the exacxt same range as her ult.

Von RevanchistMar 9, 20161 votes

Your comment makes 0 sense, I'm not about abusing anything on her I'm about her being barely self sufficient.You are trying to come in here and talk about something you know nothing of. Caitlyn can have insane mobility if you get swifties+furor enchant. Kalista is currently too powerful because of her team oriented abilities such as her ult and her wards so I agree with those nerfs. She is already super reliant on her support because they hold half of her kit she doesn't need to be further pushed in that direction. You must never play kalista o no you don't, you play nautilus a ridiculous CC, highly damaging super healthy TANK. Sneakys jhin was 1v1d flawlessly by a nautilus recently in a stream. No tank should be able to 1v1 a fed carry, why does nautilus not have a weakness then? he should do virtually NO damage because of his insane amount of CC/tankiness. You also play volibear another insane champion that is tanky and does entirely too much damage. I've played both those champs I know what they are capable of. You obviously play alot of fighter/tank you try to 1v1 a kalista and get kited BUT your job is to front line for the your team not 1v1 carries.

Angry MonsterMar 9, 20162 votes

I'm about her being barely self sufficient.

exactly she is not supposed to be, she is a tandem champ. She is not supposed to be self sufficient, all her power supposed to be tied to team work

Von RevanchistMar 10, 20161 votes

Her teamwork utility is what is making her too strong and they are nerfing it. All Adc's should be somewhat self sufficient.

BeatzBoyFTWMar 9, 20161 votes

We're exploring ways to both tighten the Oathsworn connection and remove some power as a result.

Sounds like you could have taken a job in relationship advices instead xD

DecritMar 9, 20161 votes

Can i ask you why you avoid to tackle too much her passive?

Context filled with opinions: i just feel that while it is a worth passive to have in a champion pool, i also feel that is not 100% good on her. The more you touch her the more you play on her being more/less reliant on the oathsworn, while keeping intact her jumping spearswoman side that to me feela just slapped on her.

Have you ever considered the idea, without accounting buffs or nerfs, to gate or limite her passive somehow to the oathsworn? Afaik CT wanted a passive like that to enhance her plays around the OS by gravitating around it. How much and how how you consider that core to her identity/strategy?

Yeah i know, lots of stuff and few time, thanks fot your time in any case and here a cookie!

Ren ExMar 9, 20163 votes

I don't play much Kalista, and, when I do, I never have a support that I can coordinate with.

The always want to do their own thing, I rarely get to use my W passive, and Ulting is more of a gamble as to whether they'll realize I want to fight, or this is time to back off.

With this change, I'll be even more reliant on the binding. So, I have to ask:

Has there been any thoughts as to allowing Kalista to change bindings over the course of the game now?

Forcing her to rely on someone, that may or may not even want to help you, is already a huge nerf. Why not allow Kalista to change who she is bound to, so she can change how and with who she fights with? Put a large cooldown on swapping (10 minutes, maybe?), and you prevent her from just changing right before every fight just because her old bind was dead.

Von RevanchistMar 9, 20162 votes

I agree with you

SincarnationMar 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Kalista's too strong. For a champion who's effectiveness is intended to be interwoven more than usual with a team mate's she's also pretty self sufficient. We're exploring ways to both tighten the Oathsworn connection and remove some power as a result.

Can you guys please, PLEASE just gut her passive and get on with it? You guys are pushing her more towards teamwork, great! Now Just remove her hopping bullshit identity and you will have a much healthier, more interesting champion.

FusionRogueMar 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Kalista's too strong. For a champion who's effectiveness is intended to be interwoven more than usual with a team mate's she's also pretty self sufficient. We're exploring ways to both tighten the Oathsworn connection and remove some power as a result.

So right now if an enemy dips out of vision, even if the projectile is in the air Kalista's auto will miss. Have you guys ever considered as a QOL buff to remove that? Her autos already do less damage than every other adc, and for Kalista every spear counts. I just think it would be a good change to bring in it line with every other ranged auto in the game. As a Kalista player nothing is more frustrating than almost finishing someone off just needing one more auto, but they dip out of vision and you have no wards available to put down, and the projectile from your auto was already in the air. I think this change would be nice for Kalista without giving her unnecessary power.

Zeke MaelstormMar 23, 20161 votes

These changes seem to be very limiting on the support though. The support should be able to support more than just their ADC. The current game state makes the game really snowbally and if you're getting snowballed in bot lane it is better to go help some one else.

Think of it this way, if bot's already behind but I can get Katarina snowballing we'll probably win the game (It is after all). However there is a big difference between abandoning most other ADCs and Kalista . Abandoning most other ADCs is like leaving a cat for it's self outside, it'll probably be fine and join you once laning phase ends. Abandoning Kalista on the other hands means she'll get snowballed on even harder because she loses dash frequency (Her pseudo defense) and could very likely be useless by the end of laning phase.

How about instead of forcing the support to always be with their ADC (Who might not be living to up to "carry" part of that.) and limiting their options, why not nerf Kalista 's defenses? Kalista already has more than enough mobility to ensure that she'll never be hit by a skill shot (Assuming she's played well) so she's already tanky than she appears (pseudo tankiness). If this happened than it would make her more vulnerable to assassinations and getting bullied in lane, thus nerfing her effectiveness.

Masala ChaiMar 24, 20161 votes

Alright, with the changes you've made and my experience with her so far in this patch, I will say the nerfs are pretty good, they removed a lot of her competitive power, but it doesn't feel like they removed a lot of solo queue power, she's basically become a somewhat lackluster champion when she's alone, but when with her Soul-Bound, a bit more powerful. I feel like you've successfully addressed her somewhat overbearing strengths by toning them down. Her weaknesses, while major counteract this, and hopefully she is better balanced for competitive, and we won't see on the Patch Notes for a little while.

AMYS GRAVEMar 24, 20161 votes

I mean, you're making it worse for kalista when her support disconnects. 4v5s are already cripplingly awful but now she not only has to play with two abilities but her stats are worse as well.

Surfer AsheMar 9, 20165 votes

Competitive mainly.

Ignore what Board's says. They're typically bronze and haven't seen Kalista in a long time.

Masala ChaiMar 9, 20161 votes

alright...

QuephaMar 9, 20163 votes

Are you serious? Despite being one of the most mechanically intensive champions in the game she still has a positive winrate, those types of champions are dragged down in winrate by lots of players who think they look "cool" but don't actually know how to handle the mobility properly (aka Lee Syndrome) so are actually much stronger than their winrate appears.

Kalista is dominating picks/bans in the pro scene (along with Lucian)

It doesn't matter how many nerfs she's received recently, the evidence is showing that she's still too strong.

Masala ChaiMar 9, 20161 votes

I'm not saying "don't nerf Kalista". I'm saying "nerf Kalista's passive, not her abilities"

Like what is Sentinel W nerf going to do? It's completely unjustified.

QuephaMar 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I'm not saying "don't nerf Kalista". I'm saying "nerf Kalista's passive, not her abilities"

Like what is Sentinel W nerf going to do? It's completely unjustified.

It's very tempting to nerf the most iconic parts of a champion's kit because they are the most obviously powerful parts. What you get then is every champion being sanded down to look closer and closer to every other champion which makes for a game that is more boring and actually harder to balance in the long run. Riot generally resorts to nerfing an iconic part of a champion only when literally nothing else has worked.

Vision is underrated by a lot of solo queue players but it definitely matters.

Masala ChaiMar 9, 20162 votes

But Sentinel doesn't give you a ton of vision, it's a small narrow cone that is visible to the enemy team, and can be snuck up on from behind.

QuephaMar 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

But Sentinel doesn't give you a ton of vision, it's a small narrow cone that is visible to the enemy team, and can be snuck up on from behind.

it's wide enough to effectively lock off jungle paths

Von RevanchistMar 9, 20161 votes

for 1 second?? then you walk behind it.

QuephaMar 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Von Revanchist,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6FgEnrvI,comment-id=000300000000000000000001,timestamp=2016-03-09T19:01:58.564+0000)

for 1 second?? then you walk behind it.

it doesn't matter if they don't get seen at all by the spirit and instead kill it, Kalista still knows an enemy is there and her entire team now knows whether they can pressure an objective or not.

Von RevanchistMar 9, 20161 votes

Who said anything about killing the wisp? If your purpose is to clear it out you clear it out if you are trying to be sneaky you simply avoid it by passing it. It's really easy.

Von RevanchistMar 9, 20161 votes

she has a healthy 50% winrate. kog, graves, and corki have higher winrates and ALSO huge picks/bans in the pro scene. Hell corki and graves has been ridiculous since season 2.

QuephaMar 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Von Revanchist,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6FgEnrvI,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2016-03-09T19:00:29.139+0000)

she has a healthy 50% winrate.

That's not healthy for Kalista. Healthy for her would be like 46%, which is where Lee Sin is when he's still a popular pick in pro games.

Masala ChaiMar 9, 20162 votes

Then she would be grossly underpowered because other HSF ADCs have higher winrates higher than 50% (Draven, Ezreal, Twitch, Vayne)

QuephaMar 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Then she would be grossly underpowered because other HSF ADCs have higher winrates higher than 50% (Draven, Ezreal, Twitch, Vayne)

Kalista's mobility and utility puts her in a completely different league from any other adc in the game in terms of how much agency she has over the game. Champions like that have their winrate artificially dragged down by players that don't have the mechanical skill to use those options properly. That's how champions like Zed and Lee Sin can have such awful winrates and still be regular picks in pro games and carry in normals when played by players that actually know the champion.

Masala ChaiMar 9, 20162 votes

I think Vayne (mobility) and Twitch (utility, because of Orianna and Shen submarines and global map pressure) and Quinn (both) are in a similar league with Kalista. What makes you think differently? All three are fairly mechanically intensive.

QuephaMar 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I think Vayne (mobility) and Twitch (utility, because of Orianna and Shen submarines and global map pressure) and Quinn (both) are in a similar league with Kalista. What makes you think differently? All three are fairly mechanically intensive.

Auto attacks have a much lower cooldown than 2 seconds and Kalista doesn't have to wait until level 9 to get the cooldown on her dash to be that low. Twitch does not have much utility at all, he's about damage and the orianna and shen gimmicks, while humorous, are just bad ideas 99% of the time.

Quinn has a pretty average amount of mobility in combat with an 8 second cooldown at max rank, she has some neat roaming ability but comparing her to Kalista's absolute kiting power sounds like a joke.

Masala ChaiMar 9, 20161 votes

Damn stop roasting me, but Quinn has speed boosts from Harrier and Kalista is pretty much guaranteed to lose any 1v1 vs an ADC that is not Ezreal or Corki, plus she doesn't ish out a whole lot of damage compared to the rest of the ADC class. But still stop mking me feel bads ;-;

Quepha 2 - RefurbishedIce 0

Hey do you wanna be friends?

Von RevanchistMar 9, 20161 votes

[deleted]

QuephaMar 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Von Revanchist,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6FgEnrvI,comment-id=0003000100000001,timestamp=2016-03-09T22:49:37.740+0000)

Regardless many more champions need much more attention

That is not a compelling argument.

Von RevanchistMar 9, 20161 votes

[deleted]

QuephaMar 9, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Von Revanchist,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6FgEnrvI,comment-id=000300010000000100000000,timestamp=2016-03-09T23:04:41.132+0000)

Why do you keep avoiding my comments on much stronger and problematic ADCs who are in the same boat as her when it comes to the pro scene and also have higher winrate?

Because it's a nonsense argument. If Kalista needs attention then she needs attention, end of story. Someone else needing attention too is a completely separate issue. You mentioned Kog'maw but he just received huge changes so obviously Riot is also looking at some of the champions you are convinced need to be looked at first.

Von RevanchistMar 10, 20161 votes

You need to compare the popularity of a champion compared to win rate. Lee sin is 46% win rate with a popularity of 22%. Kalista has a 50% win rate with the popularity of 10%. Lee sin attracts a lot more players and not all of them have the skill it takes, so his win rate drops. Kalista has a much lower popularity percentage so it means people that play her are usually mains of the champs. Overall 50% with a popularity of 10% is a healthy win rate.

QuephaMar 10, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Von Revanchist,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6FgEnrvI,comment-id=0003000100000002,timestamp=2016-03-10T06:43:15.136+0000)

You need to compare the popularity of a champion compared to win rate. Lee sin is 46% win rate with a popularity of 22%. Kalista has a 50% win rate with the popularity of 10%. Lee sin attracts a lot more players and not all of them have the skill it takes, so his win rate drops. Kalista has a much lower popularity percentage so it means people that play her are usually mains of the champs. Overall 50% with a popularity of 10% is a healthy win rate.

That argument has always sounded like balogna to me. Plenty of the very popular champions still have quite high winrates, and of those you can find champions that are both popular and unpopular for pro play. I'm pretty sure the facts about how a champion plays (Kalista simply requires more APM than most champions to use her dashes appropriately, proper usage of all her abilities are very nuanced) are more important than popularity in determining that a champion has above average difficulty that will be dragged down by less-skilled players.

Von RevanchistMar 10, 20161 votes

Your comment is pointless, what do other champions have to do with Kalista and Lee sin? Regardless Kalista and Lee sin are leagues above other champs in terms of difficulty to master. The way a champion plays and its popularity is directly tied to the winrate.

Your comment on "That's not healthy for Kalista. Healthy for her would be like 46%" and then trying to justify it by adding lee sins stats Is bologna, however, I still gave you a proper response. Anyways I'm done arguing I've made my point.