How about we give Vayne a slight rework to rely primarily on her silver bolts and chasing power?

Gosh Darn··37 votes·1,976 views

For a while, Vayne was considered a lategame hypercarry that could shred tanks with her silver bolts. She was especially good to choose as an ADC if your team was primarily AD or there were multiple enemies who could be troublesome with AR stacking. As much as I hate %health true damage, it's easily the least toxic aspect of her kit.

For the record, it would take 27 shots to deal 100% of an enemy's health with silver bolts. When you think about it, a squishy ADC achieving 27 shots on ANY target is practically impossible and will never happen in a real game. Of course she will be doing damage from other sources, but my point is that the true damage she inflicts is actually very minimal and manageable. Compare this to her current strategy of entering stealth, re positioning, and dealing half of her targets health with an AA. If she builds last whisper she can delete squishy targets and tanks with ease. When she was building botrk and relying on her silver bolts, her damage was pretty consistent and she couldn't just peek out of invisibility for a split second and delete an enemy without leaving much room for counterplay.

Thematically, I think she should retain the fantastic chasing ability, silver bolt proccing, and situationally strong/weak condemn which has just as much counterplay as there are uses for it. The glob of stats she gets between her press R and receive 70 AD and her tumbling into stealth for a 50% increased DPS AA is by far the biggest issue. Almost no other champion can combine a massive DPS crit build with built in steroids to achieve some of the most efficient damage in the game. Caitlyn is about as close to Vayne in that regard as it comes, and that's exactly why Caitlyn is receiving just as much criticism as Vayne. I'm really not even convinced that Vayne should keep her stealth, but if she does, her AAs need to be toned down.

When her Q doesn't crit reliably, she's too weak. When it does, she's too strong. Her Q and R should be the prime targets of a rebalance, with her passive and silver bolts being tweaked only for compensation. Her condemn should remain virtually untouched because it's by far her best balanced ability, unless Riot wants to add in more flashy play options to it.

43 Comments

Hayaishi219 votes

Remove her AD steroid on her ultimate and you'll see how we finally balance Vayne.

Because that retarded AD steroid is the reason she reaches late game with 2 items.

Rouwhorst1 votes

What would you give her in return?

NightmareAmazoX12 votes

Less hate.

vOmvbrawfU1 votes

This is a champion that despite her players having the highest experience on her, is barely at a 50% win rate and is in 8th place. So the most experienced champ is 8th in winrate and you want to gut her ultimate. Makes sense.

Melledoneus1 votes

Small attack speed buff, perhaps even double Silver Bolts stacking on Q auto.

warpenguin5553 votes

more time off the permaban list

Hayaishi22 votes

{quoted}

What would you give her in return?

Maybe final hour buffs her W, or gives her attack speed, tbh i don't think she needs that much compensation if that change ever happens because her ultimate does a lot anyways.

LordGeovanni1 votes

people believe that because something is removed some thing else has to be put back but the reason we want it changed is because we think its in a bs place

Rouwhorst1 votes

You can't just simply take something off of an ability because the champion's power gets lowered and the ability loses some of its relevance. If you are okay with that, then it is fine. But if you do not want either of these things to happen, then you have to give something back.

First point, I do not think Vayne is overpowered, and I deem a simple raw power decrease not appropriate. Secondly you have to consider that this is an ultimate ability which should have a reasonable impact. One could argue that the invisibility and movement speed is enough, this could be the case, but I think it is hugging the edge.

Another thing to consider is the eventual result of what you are trying to accomplish. The OP wanted back to attack-speed Vayne but I doubt if this is the way to reach that goal. You see, in a way the damage increase enables her to build more attack-speed. Where you normal need a good combination of both damage and attack-speed items to gain optimal DPS, will Vayne do this with more attack speed items because of the damage increase.

If you take a look at this graph, you can see the relation between attack-speed and damage. If you have for example 150 attack-speed and 100 damage (DPS lvl 1), an increase of ~55 damage will put you at the next DPS level. Whereas if you have 50 attack-speed and ~160 damage(DPS lvl 1), an increase of 55 damage would not result in a DPS of lvl 2.

Sadly it is not as simple as this, there are way more factors and a big one is critical strikes. With (100%) critical strikes, the damage increase of 55 would result into a DPS of lvl 2.

And because how Vayne works: with attack resets(with enough AS, lower DPS (see wiki)), static 1 seconds invisibility and short range combined with the overall squishiness of ADC's, attack-speed is just a less viable option. On top of that, her Q increases her damage with 50% bonus AD(which can also critical strike) and other damage carries are also really squishy (you want to get in range and do the damage before they can)

In the end you end up with a champion with mixed and unclear synergy. I think a much better approach would be removing the counter-synergy parts, and then nerf specifically the cause of her current state.

LordGeovanni1 votes

the point is to lower the power because what is currently here is not healthy and besides lots of champions get nerfed with 0 compensation the defineing factor is usually that they are in the melee fighter / melee tank catagory. like i was saying about how tahm got his ult passive changed how his regular passive with less damage and the need to stack it up not tahm bearly a year old is as much a ghost as yorick newly reworks and still not played out side of the month of his rework. yorick also lost the ability to scale his healing with his ad no compensateion like healing when attacking a the same target as the maiden of the mist.

Rouwhorst1 votes

the point is to lower the power because what is currently here is not healthy and besides lots of champions get nerfed with 0 compensation the defineing factor is usually that they are in the melee fighter / melee tank catagory.

Okay fair point, as I said if you want to let Vayne lose some power then this is a viable strategy, but again as I said I disagree.

Most likely they found Tahm Kench just a bit too powerful, however on the same patch that passive got swapped, he received a lot of other changes with some compensation. Yorick got an entire VGU, so you could also ask why anything changed.

LordGeovanni1 votes

I dont main any one champion i main a pool of fighters for top lane and tanks for support. yorick was in my pool before his rework i try to play him every 2 weeks now or less. if there was a champion i mained i mained taric support in ranked before his rework to break out of bronze into silver 5 with 100lp before the streak of throws. I would be lieing to say that i dont touch taric anymore but i dont enjoy him any more and that the truth he was the only combo support and his damage was still low now he is more clunky and all of his skills are gutted to facilitate the 'potiental power of his ult' that only works on brain dead enemies

LordGeovanni1 votes

and didnt they increase tahms ult cd even though its relatively short ranged and takes awhile to activate and travel leaves a huge warning and also take away his ability to run with allied minions for the speed boost. you know that strategic play that all the other classes get to exhibit with out interruption

Daddy Ants1 votes

{quoted}

Remove her AD steroid on her ultimate and you'll see how we finally balance Vayne.

Because that retarded AD steroid is the reason she reaches late game with 2 items.

Or they could reduce it to say

25/40/50 and give her that 25 range during Final Hour they experimented with.

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

{quoted}

Remove her AD steroid on her ultimate and you'll see how we finally balance Vayne.

Because that retarded AD steroid is the reason she reaches late game with 2 items.

its the reason she only needs just IE worth of crit to reach late game. I've had vaynes 3 shot people with just an IE late game. ga. 2 zeal items. IE greaves and an armor item.

AirKingNeo7 votes

So what you're saying is:

Her Q doesn't boost AD but now grants attack speed (50/60/70/80/90) for the next attack. You maybe think those numbers are high but remember Fiora gets 50% AS off her E rank 1 and gets it for TWO attacks where Vayne gets it for 1.

Her W is buffed by 1-2% for percent health damage to compensate for her lost of burst.

Finally, her ultimate grants the same effects except the AD is removed, her Q gets -1 second cooldown while ult is up, invisibility is lowered to 0.75 seconds, and she gets 25%/35%/45% attack speed during it.

No more burst, only the ultimate tank killing device. Of course the numbers could be changed a bit but you see the idea. Less invis because that needed a change, no burst, more tank killing (because of burst lost and to reinforce it).

EDIT: Added something for her ult to scale with via levels.

Auz the Ripper1 votes

I think instead of more attack speed on her ult, she should get more movement speed (in addition to the passive doubling). Really cement the ult as a "mobility is now at 11" button

Hexs Fortune1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Auz the Ripper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6AxBULQO,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2017-01-06T04:15:04.897+0000)

I think instead of more attack speed on her ult, she should get more movement speed (in addition to the passive doubling). Really cement the ult as a "mobility is now at 11" button

Mobility at 11 is more of an ezreal and lucian thing

Legacy Hydralpha6 votes

If we're going to keep something like max % health true damage in Vayne's kit, it should be the driving force of her gameplay. I'd gladly take Vanye with her true damage if it means she'll be a more traditional marksman, just with tank-shredding properties.

MrWasjig1 votes

Really that's what her niche should be, a tank-shredder. Yeah all ADCs are good at tank shredding but Vayne has immensely powerful innate tank-shredding power.

Riot is always going on about how they want each champion within each class to have a particular role or niche or whatever else they want to call it, and Vayne is currently brilliant at anything. Exploding squishies AND shredding tanks. I'm pretty sure that's why Lucian was a struggle to balance for a while in season 5, because he was good at everything, the every-marksman. Then they doubled down on his role as a bursty, short range gun slinger at it worked out pretty well. Yeah he's weak right now but that's due to circumstances surrounding him less than him being weak.

chipndip11 votes

Vayne isn't brilliant at sieging or wave clear...

And Lucian is hot garbage right now. Like legitimate butt chunks bad.

Gosh Darn1 votes

Waveclear isn't especially important in this meta besides maybe mid lane. Vayne can rely on shiv, her support, and her immense dps to clear a wave pretty easily and not spend any mana in the process.

chipndip11 votes
  • It's still something she isn't good at.

  • She'd rely on her adc?

  • She also isn't good at tanking while we're at it.

MrWasjig1 votes

Siege, okay so that's one thing. And it hardly makes a dent in all the other shit Vayne can do very well right now. Wave clear, well item 3087 exists which helps her make up for that weakness.

As for Lucian yes I even noted he's weak right now. But that was besides the point. My point was that he was actually given a niche and a unique playstyle. Remember when he and Graves were totally interchangeable? And the one you picked was based on who was stronger? Well that's no longer the case since they have different playstyles and do different things now.

Vayne can be picked in pretty much any team comp against any other team comp and still do very well because of the sheer variety of stuff she does well. (I'd also argue that Caitlyn suffers from a similar problem right now in that she too just works in any situation :P)

chipndip11 votes

It's not that she does everything well more than it's that most marksmen aren't good enough to stop her from scaling anymore. They way overnerfed Ashe and Lucian's itemization wasn't even marksman related so he's down for a few counts, for example.

MrWasjig1 votes

Whatever the reason it has us in the same position...fuck Vayne :D

chipndip11 votes

I see your fuck Vayne and raise you one fuck Caitlyn, good sir. :D

MrWasjig1 votes

Fuck both of them, and not in the intercourse sort of way.... xP

Rouwhorst1 votes

You will end up having all marksman fucked up, which is apparently already a thing.

LankPants2 votes

I'd say change her ult from an invisibility to a camouflage with ~300 range to reveal. That way if I'm playing a melee, she fucks up her condemn and I stick to her she doesn't get to stealth tumble away from me. Also she goes back to getting fucked over by pinks, for some stealth champs this isn't appropriate but for Vayne it is.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Poopybunghole,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6AxBULQO,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-01-04T20:29:39.918+0000)

For the record, it would take 27 shots to deal 100% of an enemy's health with silver bolts.

Lmaaaaao, and I always see Fioras talking about how 5 vitals (1 passive and ult) easily do over 100% of your enemy's max health in true damage late game.

Automated Riven1 votes

if you are full ad fiora that isnt too far off.

SerBlaise1 votes

Vayne's doesn't scale with AD, just W rank.

Maximum Morde1 votes

Nerf vayne.

Hexs Fortune1 votes

Kogmaw's niche is the tank shredder adc. Vayne's is the duelist adc.

{quoted}

Really that's what her niche should be, a tank-shredder. Yeah all ADCs are good at tank shredding but Vayne has immensely powerful innate tank-shredding power.

Riot is always going on about how they want each champion within each class to have a particular role or niche or whatever else they want to call it, and Vayne is currently brilliant at anything. Exploding squishies AND shredding tanks. I'm pretty sure that's why Lucian was a struggle to balance for a while in season 5, because he was good at everything, the every-marksman. Then they doubled down on his role as a bursty, short range gun slinger at it worked out pretty well. Yeah he's weak right now but that's due to circumstances surrounding him less than him being weak.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Which would be fine if she was more about positioning and such with stealth and attack moving instead of just 3 shotting you because she gets over 2k gold worth of AD on ult later on in the game.

Evewynn1 votes

I dunno, buffing %max hp true damage seems kinda iffy for me. Maybe give her an attack speed steroid after procing it? That should be a sufficient reward without increasing the actual damage and making up for any removal of stats in other parts of her kit (like ult AD)

Cocho1 votes

Imo she was healthy when she rushed item 3153

Make her Q bonus AD not apply to crits and give her attack speed somewhere on ult or silver bolts perhaps.

Then, change the build path on item 3153 because item 3144 is garbage. If they removed the lifesteal and gave it crit, it would be interesting as a build path for attack speed that isnt a item 3087 item 3094 item 3046 item 3085.

Lucian Waifu1 votes

How about we not rework every single champion that might seem unhealthy, at the moment, or we will end up with 500 new champions when we have 140 to choose from.

LordGeovanni1 votes

You could call silver bolts not toxic because it would take 27 shots by it self but vayne cant not have auto attack damage which only at base value cuts that number 60% being a adc building only ad and attack speed and also crit carry with on hit bortk in her core build also counts for alot too. its not right to say that its the least of her problems because its not over half of her problems as it carries over half of the weight of her problems. I dont disagree with your proposal but they would have to make her very very weak out side of silver bolts for it to be fair.

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