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@Meddler, Ez is the only champ really who uses Muramana, are there any plans for the item?

xxxMadLionxxx··87 votes·4,969 views

The item has become outdated because a lot of its user have been reworked in a manner that they don't need the item anymore. Ez is the only known champ who still uses it. The item itself is decent as it doesn't require other items to power spike. For example, crit needs multiple crit items to work. Muramana works on its own, but has a long stack time while not seeming worth while when compared to crit/lethality. It also gets weaker in long fights. The cons seems to outweigh the pros.

I would like to see the item appeal to more champs as I think it is unique in its single target/on hit damage. I would also love to see mages use it. Adding a hard cap to the number of times it can be proc'ed per second will prevent champs from completely abusing it with a multiple single targeted cast or spells that can proc like over 5 times per second.

So Meddler, can you pls let us know if riot is even looking at this item? I would like to see it in the meta again.

115 Comments

ÈvilMorty18 votes

item 3040 has the same problem where I only see it on anivia and ryze, its a decent item with tons of ap, mana and a shield but takes way too long to stack.

Raiyza23 votes

Karthus

IcyPepper7 votes

You increased his example's champion pool by 50%.

SweedishGunner10 votes

It's a common Cass item too. Honestly Tear is really good, it's nearly infinite mana for 750g but it takes ages to stack and the complete AP item has a horrible/expensive build path.

NineTailedMystic4 votes

Tear is bad on a lot of champions because of the zero combat stats. I'd love to buy Archangel's on Ahri, but I simply can't give up my level 6 power for it.

Divewing2 votes

I'd love it on Azir.

I'd hate to not be able to do anything until 40 minutes as opposed to 39

ahferroin72 votes

It's a reasonably common build on Karthus and Cassiopeia, and is actually almost mandatory on a non-support build for Zilean (yes, those do exist). On top of that, it can be good on certain other off-meta builds (both Lissandra and Kassadin come to mind).

specter4244 votes

plz dont build tear on zilean, just buy rod of ages you need the health

ahferroin71 votes

90% of the time, I get both (and the that remaining 10% of the time is ARAM games where the rest of my team are tanks), RoA and Archangel's staff synergize well because RoA gives so much mana.

Sire Hippington3 votes

I wouldn't say it has exactly 'the same' problem. Archangel mostly has the issue of beeing to delayed in it's power in a heavily earlygame focused meta(since S6 pretty much) and morellos beeing to dominant as mana option.

Muramana has a whole much more issues. It's passive only works well with frequent singletarget damage, while most ADs that need mana have AOE abillities, that alone limits the number of potential users quite alot, as you need either spamable singletarget spells or High AS while wanting that mana to spam spells, which really aren#t much champs. On top of that, Muramana has a kinda identity crisis, the costs and stats of it make it an early/mid items, yet the stacking mechanic makes it a mid-late item, which results with it only giving a brief powerspike duering mid once it transforms, and then it falls of due to the lowish stats for the slot. However, my bigest issue with it is that it drains your manapool like crazy and it gets weaker the less current mana you have. The reason for why this is such an issue to me is simple: If i go for mana, i do so to stay effective even in prolonged fights instead of running oom, and the muramana effect directly goes against that. Another issue is that there are few mana items that you would combine with it, which further limits it's scaleing. You'll hardly see more mana than a trinity or iceborn on top of it.

So even with out the stacking issue, muramana would still be a flawed item that isn't very statisfying to get, while AA is a quite a nice item with quite some other mana/ap options for the synergie

No More Cages2 votes

Cassiopeia EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Whoops. Sorry, thought I was in game.

Wînter Fox11 votes

When I don't even want it as Jayce there's a problem. Riot please listen to OP

My Waifu Vanilla7 votes

The only reason Jayce doesn't go for it anymore is they basically removed all of Jayce's mana costs over the years. I remember NEEDING Tear to poke decently as Jayce, but now you can poke for quite a decent time period and getting one ocean drag makes it so you literally NEVER need mana sustain.

YumaS2Astral2 votes

Also, Jayce builds to one shot now, instead of strictly poking. He usually only needs one or two rotations of abilities to one shot people.

IcyPepper9 votes

He usually only needs one or two rotations of abilities to one shot people.

?

He usually only needs one or two rotations of abilities

??

one or two rotations of abilities

???

one or two rotations

????

to one shot people.

I think you mean 100-0 people, but that would be for one rotation. If you need two rotations, that's not one-shotting people.

Divewing5 votes

Just as I was about to call the pedantic police.

Thank god you got here early!

FutureCreator2 votes

Woah there, maokai can oneshot people with like 3-4 ability rotations. Nerf this shit

PhearBunny6 votes

I wish they would turn Muramana into a item that's more accesable to champs like Nocturne, Vi, and Pantheon. Champs who are really restricted by mana and have no conventional mana item to build.

something like. Serrated Dagger+Mana Crystal+Serrated Dagger. 2900 combine cost. 45AD, 20 Lethality, 250 mana, mana regen. Unique affix- Deal up to and receive up to 10% more/less damage based on missing mana.(Caps at 25/100 mana and below)

Stompme2 votes

If a champ is limited by their mana, let them be limited by it. It's okay for a champ to have weaknesses, it's not okay to push for them to be given items that negate their drawbacks. That sort of shit is what got the game into this adc meta.

Votable Jester5 votes

That's a completely unrelated item and also punishes you for building mana (the extra damage would take longer to reach).

AFK Push1 votes

Besides the fact that item is bass ackwards in design, Pantheon doesn't need better itemization for laning. He has been the best lane bully top laner season after season.

Sniperkaj4 votes

I build it on Jayce every day in the midlane. It softens his powerspike early but makes you much more relevant lategame

Its All Skillzz4 votes

i dont even build it on ez anymore, rushing tear just gets you shit stomped in lane. oh look ez has a tear an doran blade and cait/jhin/jinx/mf/lucian has a bf sword lets all go tower dive him. either going right into tforce or sometimes i went ess reaver might try it again now that his Q has high Ad scaling crit ez wasnt bad i just didnt do it right, im thinking prob ess reaver triforce ie and avoid crit atk speed items for raw AD items maybe get shiv for wave clear. either way i pref gunblade rush ap ezreal.

warpenguin5553 votes

Doesnt Jayce use it too?

xxxMadLionxxx4 votes

{quoted}

Doesnt Jayce use it too?

nope. He builds lethality now or Essence Reaver if he want mana now

Drynin3 votes

I think a core issue with it is that it's clearly designed for the AD spellcaster, and typically those come in 2 design directions.

  1. The snowball bursty assassin/fighter types who want damage quick and directly, which Muramana doesn't assist much with, or

  2. The AOE ranged caster, who would only benefit from its passive on AA effects, and so would need more raw damage from the item itself, but Muramana essentially caps at around 65 AD (for most champs considering 1000 base mana at 18) with no other utility to it. In contrast, Duskblade may give 10 less AD, but it also gives CDR, Lethality, and a passive that does damage faster, as opposed to the sustained damage of Muramana.

Basically, it's got a bit of an identity crisis where its intended goal for given champions can be achieved with other items that may be more expensive, but give better stats, and fewer conditions.

Also to contrast it with its AP counterpart item 3040 , at least this item you can objectively say gives the most potential AP of any other item counting just itself.

SanKakU3 votes

Literally any champion that runs out of mana often can pick this up for some physical damage output and let them keep throwing out their spells to stay safe. Ezreal Anivia Lux Kayle KogMaw Nidalee Ryze Veigar Rakan Blitzcrank All of them can use it well. That's like 2 music groups worth of champions.

Blåbæret7 votes

{quoted}

Literally any champion that runs out of mana often can pick this up for some physical damage output and let them keep throwing out their spells to stay safe. Ezreal Anivia Lux Kayle KogMaw Nidalee Ryze Veigar Rakan Blitzcrank All of them can use it well. That's like 2 music groups worth of champions.

Ur joking right?

ahferroin72 votes

It's decent on AD Blitz and OK as an off-build on Nidalee, mediocre on most of the others except Ezreal.

ChuShoe1 votes

Isn't archangel stave just muramana for ap champs?

I'd imagine building muramana on lucian maybe (just cause I personally have a hard time managing his mana, but it seems like it'd be better to just build essence reaver.

DuskDaUmbreon2 votes

If you're having a problem managing mana on Lucian, Essence Reaver is more than strong enough.

ahferroin71 votes

ER is usually a better option. Ezreal is an odd case because unlike almost every other marksman in the game who has mana issues, almost all of his damage is from abilities, and therefore ER is a suboptimal option on him (he's not autoattacking much, so he doesn't crit much, and therefore he doesn't get much mana back).

There are a handful of odd off-meta builds that can utilize it well though. For example, in a couple of rare cases, I've seen people grab both manamune and archangel's together on split scaling champs with RoA, which ends up being an insanely late-game build, but gives people like Kog'Maw, Kayle, and Ezreal a reasonable amount of damage (with all three at full stacks, you get 252 AP (100 just from RoA, 80 flat from seraph's, and 72 from the 2400 total mana from the three items) and 73 AD (25 flat from muramana and 48 from the 2400 total mana from the three items) just from the items without factoring in base mana) and the ability to spam all their abilities constantly without worrying about mana.

LordForrest2 votes

Lol I remember building Manamune on Ryze back in the day as a last item just to fuck with people. You got a shit ton of more mana for scaling, plus now you got additional AD on your autos for taking towers easier.

Of course when they changed it so AP users did damage to towers based off of their AP and 1 of the Ryze reworks happened, it stopped being even considered for fucking with people. Still was fun while it lasted.

Jackom13 votes

I'd like it to become an item suited to most/all AD champions who deal sustained damage through abilities, instead of just the ones who like to poke.

They could take away some of the mana, which is just too much it's unnecessary, increase the bonus ad based on mana, so that it actually synergizes with other mana items. Then either change the passive, or make it so it works on AoE abilities too, with reduced damage of course, but not on auto attacks (neither regular nor empowered).

Are you an AD champion who's damage comes almost only (70% at least) from abilities, and who maybe likes to scale into late game? Take manamune.

Kaìju3 votes

The only thing I find Muramana useful for is a fun troll build of it plus 100% crit because you never lose mana so you always have the full damage proc. It Honeslty hurts a lot and I've pulled it off, the issue is that it takes way way way too long. I also think part of the issue is it's identity. It's a mana AD item meant for casters, but it's proc is designed for auto attacks since Ez Q is the only adc skillshot I can think of that even procs it. This means auto attackers who would want it can't stack it, and outside of Ez, those who could stack it don't want it. It needs to be clearly altered to be either for casters, or for auto attackers.

Imperial Japan2 votes

I wish it had different stages and spikes rather than just one semi good one. Sort of like Viktors staff upgrades. Like there's different upgrades at 1/4 stacks, 1/2, 3/4 stacks

SpecterVonBaren5 votes

Copying from a thread I made yesterday.

{quoted}

For a while now Riot has been showing us their pre-pre-season work on the new runes. Well one of the new runes has a key word in it description of being adaptive which means that it gives you bonus AD or AP based on which you have more of.

Here's an example.

_

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sparkle,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=9ls3OEo8,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-07-26T19:47:58.296+0000) Trophy Collector

http://i.imgur.com/uwGjaZg.png

Gain +1 Ability Power or +.7 Attack Damage (Adaptive) when you or a nearby ally kill an enemy champion or an enemy ward.

_

{quoted}

This is what should be added to item 3070 it should give you a little bit of bonus AD or AP as you stack it, depending on which you have more of. Something like 1 AD or 1.5 AP for every 25 stacks (So a maximum of 30 AD or 45 AP). This would make the item much more attractive to buy since you wouldn't be completely ceding the lane for buying it since you'll still be able to get a little bit of damage out of just Tear.

Now 30 AD and 45 AP may sound like a lot but remember that that number is with MAX stacks of the item and you're still going to want to upgrade it at some point, preferably before you actually hit the max stack mark since the upgrades stack faster. This is just so that people can feel better about starting Tear and so it will be purchased more often.

Niyumi2 votes

I build it on Varus. But I'm the only person I see build it, so eh.

WinTheWarOnPants2 votes

The weakness of item 3042 is because of poblems with the game as a whole. item 3042 is just a reference for how off course this game is right now.

  1. No one needs mana anymore. with tons of mana cost reductions over time there's no real benefit to the mana sustain. plus item 3508 keeps everyone else from running out of mana.
  2. Other AD Items are WAY stronger at ALL points of the game. Itemization has gotten much stronger over the past season to the point of being OP IMO, but manamune was left alone. It's weakness is a testament to how much stronger items have become.
  3. Even if Manamune could compete with the rest of the AD items(doesn't even come close lol even after it's finished). Games are either over, or decided before you finish it anyway.

item 3040 is in a similar spot, but not as bad since it only has to deal with points 2 and 3. AD is much more problematic, but AP is also in a bad spot with item 3165 item 3146 item 3027 being blatantly OP compared to other AP options(item 3165 is definitely the worst offender). item 3027 item 3165 combo essentially eliminates any mages mana problems on top of giving them a god like early game when compared to item 3070 stacking.

TwinkiePro2 votes

The sad part is that item 3042 is the strongest on hit item, dealing 150% of it's AD provided from mana as on hit damage.

Linna Excel1 votes

I hope it is to delete the item and give Ez a little TLC.

xxxMadLionxxx15 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=64QsxEwT,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-08-24T18:48:50.980+0000)

I hope it is to delete the item and give Ez a little TLC.

lol. The item is good just outdated.

Linna Excel1 votes

Perhaps, but with Ez getting a buff to the AD ratio on his Q, maybe now is the time for his mains to switch over to ER.

Häxel4 votes

this makes no sense cause ezreal q can't crit but can apply the onhit dmg of muramana. If it could crit like Gp q er woulb be good.

FilDaFunk1 votes

Only vlad used WotA. Does Muramana get different treatment because an ADC uses it?

######I don't care either way, but the point had to be made.

SpongebobIsLife1 votes

completely different items and situations.

FilDaFunk1 votes

What's the difference in the situation?

SpongebobIsLife2 votes

no one used wota besides morde and vlad, both of which have historically had abysmal play rates until recent time periods. Muramana on the other hand saw a lot more time of day being popular in kha zix, jayce, and ezreal. All 3 very popular champs, in other words, the balance of the item has an effect on more players than that of wota. The item has gotten so weak that only one person, ezreal use it, and look where his win rate is.

FilDaFunk2 votes

Thanks for clarification. I think I should point out that in the olden days, WotA had AoE spellvamp, so we eventually had mages deciding to put 3 on a team. I've seen it built on Kennen, Vlad, Morg, and it was a good situational item.

SpongebobIsLife3 votes

oh yeah it did used to have an aura that gave like 10 spellvamp and 20 ability power. I do remember seeing it being built on kennen but that was still rare. Putting the play rate of muramana aside, it was also healthier and easier to balance than WoTa.

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