Low value champions that only do damage are bad design

Moody P··8 votes·1,858 views

"Low value" meaning that in terms of the standard team comp, these champs are bringing little to the table other than their damage - which means they need to have ridiculous damage to compete at all. This almost always tends to a heavy abuse in low rank gameplay while their lacking kits get exploited in higher elo and competitive gameplay, or being shunned entirely in favor of better kits in mages and tanks.

this post is mainly about melee carries because they're the biggest victims of riots flawed design philosophy to this sense. skirmishes and juggernauts and a good portion of divers have 3/4 of their kit dedicated to vomiting damage and very little if anything that contributes meaningfully to their team. with divers this has started changing with recent releases like Xin rework, Camille (who is really toxic for other reasons), and Irelia but skirmishers have too few new releases coming out to point in a healthy direction since the last one we had was Fiora(?). Its not coincidental that the first melee ADC to provide high team value is the first one Riot ever made that actually saw consistent success and is probably the most viable choice to take into competitive (if he wasn't so under powered). Most divers who see competitive success prior to Camille, basically turn up into sub-tanks who play for initiation rather than to be carries. This isn't an issue for all of them, but when carry fighters are rarely considered worth picking I consider it an issue.

Then you have other champs like Yi and Riven who are 100% dependent on numbers balling you and if they don't have the numbers then you're not even part of the game. Riven is even worse about it IMO because Riven value is also decided by mechanics. Riven doesn't have the mechanics, or she's lagging a bit? 4v5, instantly.

Other fighters are better but still not quite there. Darius and Fiora exist on opposite ends of either spectrum of fighters and have the same issue; they have healthy game patterns and sufficient counterplay in most of their matchup, but they just don't really matter. High elo will rarely if ever consider them for a draft because they aren't bringing something that isn't already being done by another lane -- and the other lanes will usually also be doing something else in top of it.

Riot has done a good job of moving all 3 of these classes away from pure raw stat checking but they still haven't addressed the other hurdle that keeps them from being a meaningful contribution to the game. With the incoming Wukong rework I felt this thread was appropriate and id like to ask that he be considered for more stand out utility to compliment whatever gameplay plans you have in mind for him. He could be mechanically perfect after his rework but if he's not giving you enough to justify him then he likely won't be a successful update.

15 Comments

Troy2426214 votes

I mean I do think there should be an option if your team is just tank/bruiser city and you desperately need some damage and/or sieging power.

Point taken, they could have some mobility or utility, some tools to outplay, etc. in exchange for some reduction in damage, but at the end of the day I'm not picking Yi or Graves to CC people, I'm doing it to add some damage to our team.

Moody P2 votes

You never want Yi on your team in higher ranked play. No team comp that's ever actually gonna happen except for funnel strat wants him. If you are somehow needing your jungle to be a hard carry you would rather have somebody like Kindred who has a high value ultimate, even if she doesn't match Yi in raw potential damage.

Compare this to DOTA where carries actually have some pretty nutty utility like freezing enemy cooldowns and dropping healing stations, almost always offering team value because that directly contributes to their ability to carry in the first place.

Somebody like Yi is almost solely there to exploit soloQ's lack of coordination and that is simply not an acceptable design to have. You shouldn't balance a champion around the human element.

Troy2426211 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5wfEu0Zg,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-03-16T19:20:41.609+0000)

You never want Yi on your team in higher ranked play. No team comp that's ever actually gonna happen except for funnel strat wants him. If you are somehow needing your jungle to be a hard carry you would rather have somebody like Kindred who has a high value ultimate, even if she doesn't match Yi in raw potential damage.

Compare this to DOTA where carries actually have some pretty nutty utility like freezing enemy cooldowns and dropping healing stations, almost always offering team value because that directly contributes to their ability to carry in the first place.

Somebody like Yi is almost solely there to exploit soloQ's lack of coordination and that is simply not an acceptable design to have. You shouldn't balance a champion around the human element.

I mean sure but what does Graves offer besides mediocre sustained damage and middle-of-the-road burst? Or Rengar stat checking yhou in 0.2 sec?

Moody P2 votes

that's kind of my point here, assassins that HAVE to delete you with little mechanical counterplay to be viable at all are fundamentally flawed designs

adding a meaningful utility for him to at least have as a fallback would make him a good degree healthier and reduce his own need to drop a nuke on you

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5wfEu0Zg,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-16T23:43:17.199+0000)

that's kind of my point here, assassins that HAVE to delete you with little mechanical counterplay to be viable at all are fundamentally flawed designs

adding a meaningful utility for him to at least have as a fallback would make him a good degree healthier and reduce his own need to drop a nuke on you

and then you just have a diver... ok... so what you are telling me is that get rid of entire classes and exchange them for their less damage counterparts that have more utility just because essentially

Moody P1 votes

?

Divers don't have high utility.

I don't care if assassins do well in your rank. I'm talking about high elo and competitive gameplay where these champions simply do not exist unless they're overtuned. This is how that problem gets fixed.

Rengar having a little tack on or two doesn't mean he needs to be unable to isolate and kill people. He has a solid amount of overkill damage that could be redistributed to new functions.

painkills2 votes

Interesting, well-thought out post.

I agree that if damage is all a (melee) champion has, then gameplay patterns become unsustainable.

  • If the burst is enough to kill, the only problem left is target access. If it's not easy for that champion to get on his target, he's useless or requires mistakes from the enemy. If it is easy, then he becomes overpowered.
  • If the burst isn't enough to kill, then he is useless unless someone gets low enough for him to try and finish off.

Giving them some form of utility in exchange for some loss in damage will make the extreme cases less problematic because they can still do good damage, or contribute meaningfully in some other way.

BenLegend4432 votes

Karthus is played high-elo... he's pure magic damage.

Moody P1 votes

Karthus is not a well designed champion.

BenLegend4431 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5wfEu0Zg,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-03-19T13:31:18.589+0000)

Karthus is not a well designed champion.

Probably just cause his kit was designed in 2009, when pure damage was OK.

Done251 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5wfEu0Zg,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-03-19T13:31:18.589+0000)

Karthus is not a well designed champion.

Karthus is a dps AP hyper carry. You can't really give him much CC without breaking him. (Ex. Ryze, Vladimir, and Cass.)

BenLegend4432 votes

{quoted}

Karthus is a dps AP hyper carry. You can't really give him much CC without breaking him. (Ex. Ryze, Vladimir, and Cass.)

He's also got half your health on damage reserve(unless you're a tank).

Done251 votes

{quoted}

Karthus is played high-elo... he's pure magic damage.

Karthus has Wall of Pain. A long reach lane wide wall that lasts for five seconds and slows the crap out of anyone who has to move through it.

thefatlazycat1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5wfEu0Zg,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-03-16T18:10:01.735+0000)

Darius and Fiora exist on opposite ends of either spectrum of fighters and have the same issue; they have healthy game patterns and sufficient counterplay in most of their matchup

I get you're trying to make a point but I'd say CertainlyT's champions are anything but healthy

Moody P2 votes

I would say CT makes excellent champions usually. All designers have mistakes but I consider his best to be above and beyond what other devs have done, considering he made the first truly functional melee ADC as well as created an assassin who doesn't need to 100-0 burst cheese you to be viable and has value besides her raw damage output.

Most of my issues with him, outside of Kalista who I despise wholeheartedly, usually stem from things not related to their direct combat patterns like Yasuo's shield from walking and pressing R, and Zoe's W gimmick giving her free damage and healing for hitting up minions. Those are relatively minor in regards to the entire kit, though.

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