Yasuo needs a pretty significant power shift in his kit

HateDaddy··166 votes·7,285 views

His lane phase is simply too good. Meanwhile, what he was intended for was largely to be a good skirmished and decent 5v5 melee champion (see windwall plus his ult). While he's a good skirmisher, his teamfights is completely overrated. Yasuo ults in, exhaust him and he's non next to nothing. Proceed to focus him and he won't accomplish much.

It's ironic. He was designed for teamfighting but it's his lane phase that just ends up being the problem. And you can blame phantom dancer, you can even blame FM to an extent. But yasuo has been problematic since he was designed and it has always stemmed from his lane phase. When he's weak, he's not good in lane. When he's a thing to the contrary, he's massively overpowering in lane. There's no in between and that's because his kit rewards him with too much stuff to ever really be balancable in lane.

I don't blame his passive

I don't blame his lack of mana

I don't blame his Q

I don't blame windwall

I don't even blame his ult (though it needs a significant CD increase)

I blame his E. His E is what makes him completely ridiculous. As long as minions are around, you can't be near him. Because his ability to close a gap, CC you, damage you the retreat back through a wave to safety without you being able to retaliate is what makes him do overpowering. And in top lane, with his non existent cooldowns and shield, he can stand on minions and bully 90% of the top lane roster into submission simply by spamming Q on you and then doing the above mentioned with his E. The other 10% that he can't just Spam Q and win? His E grants him the ability to massively outplay them all.

When it boils down to it, there's no answer for a well played yasuo in lane. And I don't blame his "overloaded" kit because it's all stats that can be out stat'd or it requires him to actually interact, both things are fine. It's his E. And no amount of nerfs will change that. You'll either nerf everything else until he's garbage or you won't and he'll remain broken.

I would suggestion putting a cap on how many times he can dash to enemy units then have the ability go on a short 10-20 second cooldown. Then once it's maxed, his E becomes the way it is now where there's no cap, just the cooldown on the enemy he can use it on again within a certain timeframe (this would stay on previous ranks too).

So for example, I'd do this

Rank 1 E: Yasuo can dash to 5 enemy targets, with 3 seconds being the maximum amount of time he can hold onto a dash without the spell going on cooldown. After using the 5 dashes or not using a dash within 3 seconds, Yasuos E goes on cooldown for 15 seconds. And naturally, as I said, he'd still have the cooldown of how long he can use his E on the same target again

Rank 2: 6 enemy targets 13second CD

Rank 3: 7 enemy targets: 11 second CD

Rank 4: 8 enemy targets 10 second CD

Rank 5: no limit, no CD

This would actually decrease his lane power a ton without murdering his ability to lane. It'd give him less outplay potential and more Windows of opportunity to be exploited.

I would also increase his Ults level 1 CD by 25 seconds. The fact he can use his ult simply to harass because the cooldown is laughably low is pretty bullshit.

Ideally, this change would make him weaker in lane and as a result, you can look at doing things to make his teamfights consistently better. You can buff his shield mid-late game, you can buff his scaling stats - anything that would improve his teamfight after lane phase.

He's just not a healthy champion currently. And his designs intention has gone into complete reversal and with these changes, I think you could allow him remain remotely the same without him losing a huge chunk of stuff.

181 Comments

GULAG 4 U69 votes

I can't believe it. Someone made a reasonable well formulated yasuo post. You're a liar op. /s

+1

quasistellar4 votes

Solution is simple:

Give his E charges--let's say 3-- that recharge with movement, but not movement from his E

GULAG 4 U3 votes

Then again what he said was a concept. Limiting a skirmisher's mobility can easily destroy the champion. Unless yasuo could gain stacks from autoing or something similar, the proposed changes would destroy him.

LordOfTheLeague22 votes

The change I'd like to see about yasuo :

  • his E cooldown changed to 0.9/0.7/0.5/0.3/0.1 (I think the way he can use his E is what matter the most for people playing against him).

  • his 3rd Q when he can hold the tornado reduced to ~4 or 6 seconds and then we could add back the duration with others spells like his W (windshield + 1s by skill points from 5s) or his ultimate (+2s per skill points from 4s) to the 10s duration late game.

Sraeg20139 votes

This is actually much more reasonable, than OP's idea of "balance".

Darf Rakki2 votes

agreed. the e cooldown is what needs to change. I don't think it should stay at .1 at max rank, thats what it is currently. yasuo is gonna rank e up first, so he's gonna hit that level 5 e quick.

A .5 cooldown at max rank is still only half a second but it would slow him down enough to make a difference, without completely dumpstering him. yasuo would still have godlike mobility as long as he has targets to dash to, but he's slowed down enough to capitalize on mistakes, like wasting windwall or dashing into a bad position.

I Q11 votes

Yasuo actually feels clunky to use pre-level 3 E. If you changed his E to have a minimum of .5 sec CD he would feel clunky throughout the entire game, Yasuo's biggest selling points (to me atleast) is that his kit flows together perfectly. Watching a good Yasuo can sometimes look like a dance by a professional. The flow of his kit can't be interrupted.

Squey4 votes

The flow of his kit can't be interrupted

exactly the problem

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

The change I'd like to see about yasuo :

  • his E cooldown changed to 0.9/0.7/0.5/0.3/0.1 (I think the way he can use his E is what matter the most for people playing against him).

  • his 3th Q when he can hold the tornado reduced to ~4 or 6 seconds and then it we could add back the duration with others spells like his W (windshield + 1s by skill points from 5s) or his ultimate (+2s per skill points from 4s) to the 10s duration late game.

I don't think that changes much on his E if I'm being honest. And his ability to hold onto his tornado is frustrating but he can generate it so quickly, I'm not sure that changes much either. And it is probably not a bad strength to have in lane, it allows him some zone control in lane. But as it currently is, it is too much.

LordOfTheLeague4 votes

I don't know what to think about your post. I propose 2 nerfs to the most frustating parts about his kit and you say that it's not about idea and then you conclude those parts are too much.. Like wtf

D357R0Y3R7 votes

Hey hatedaddy!

what do you think about decreasing his Crit damage in early/mid game, while buffing his late game damage crit?

like 150% crit damage from lvl 1 to 9 175% from lvl 9 to 16 200% after lvl 16?

HateDaddy7 votes

{quoted}

Hey hatedaddy!

what do you think about decreasing his Crit damage in early/mid game, while buffing his late game damage crit?

like 150% crit damage from lvl 1 to 9 175% from lvl 9 to 16 200% after lvl 16?

His crits already are reduced because of his passive, I'm not sure I'd be in favor of reducing them more. I'll explain:

Yasuo has his double crit passively the first place because the idea is he builds two big ticket crit items then can focus on bruiser/tank items to maximize his durability. This way he's not too tanky (which was a problem at one point but got nerfed) and he can do a nice amount of damage. It's the light fighter in a nutshell, not as tanky as a fighter but does more damage. In short, I think of it as riots new attempt at a melee ADC. And I like it. I actually love yasuos kit and think it's cool but is just too powerful in lane.

So, why am I against nerfing his crit damage? Well, for starters I don't think that's too much of a problem. Yeah he spikes hard with his first item but champions that are designed to scale well with damage/durability innately have ridiculous spikes with their first items no matter what (think Jax/irelia with Trinity or Darius with BC). And secondly, I'm never in favor of nerfing a damage based champions damage, is prefer other avenues to make them feel more exploitable, not just weak.

Angry Monster5 votes

exhaust him

you know this is not counter play and should not only solution when dealing with a champ.

Narvuntien4 votes

i think you have pin pointed the frustration of playing against him, but isn't it also what makes him fun for people.

its like with Teemo, he is a pain in he arse to play against but playing him.. oh boy is it a fun time. so the Fun for the player outwieghs the anti-fun of the opponents.

You could seriously hamper Yasuo by doing something as simple as giving E a cast time, that would bascially.. break his flow...and he would behave more like Kassadin or Ez.. has to stop then jump stop then jump.

He is not healthy in a similar way that old Kat wasn't healthly, so much pub stomping. The casual player doesn't pay any attention to minions other than to kill them when thier position suddenly puts them in danger (or gives Yas an escape) when they didn't realise that feels bad.

I still wish the wall could only block auto attacks it really sucks having your whole kit as an Mage prevented from working.

PlsTouchMeGently4 votes

I agree that he's overtuned, but I don't agree that there's no answer to him in lane. I have never once lost to a Yasuo playing my main, Malzahar

yay nibbers6 votes

As a Yasuo main I can confirm that Malzahar tilts me off the planet. If everyone just picked Malzahar into Yasuo (among other counters like Annie Darius Pantheon etc) we'd probably see way less people complaining about Yasuo.

HateDaddy11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ron Pitts,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5vRXEmqE,comment-id=00130000,timestamp=2016-12-18T17:48:15.379+0000)

As a Yasuo main I can confirm that Malzahar tilts me off the planet. If everyone just picked Malzahar into Yasuo (among other counters like Annie Darius Pantheon etc) we'd probably see way less people complaining about Yasuo.

Not everyone plays those champions and league should never be based on counters/non counters: it's not rock/paper/scissors.

AninLegions7772 votes

Rock paper scissors is a guessing game. Picking Yasuo is already laid out. Two different things.

Leblancs Boob3 votes

Not really. People who offer counterpicks as a solution are assuming that Yasuo is picked before his lane opponent choose their champion. This would theoretically only happen about 50% of the time. What about the other 50%?

There's a reason champions have to be balanced around having counterplay vs. all champions. This is something Yasuo doesn't have. You picked a skillshot mage vs. Yasuo? LOL GL.

AninLegions7772 votes

Not really. If I pick LB and they pick Yasuo, it's rip for them. And what most people don't know is, a lot of top laners/mid laners counter Yasuo, skillshot based or not. The thing is his wall. Bait it out and for the next 26 seconds and it lasts for only 4 seconds. I think it's a good ability. It stops mindless spamming of abilities. Makes you think.

Leblancs Boob1 votes

So basically if I'm mid/top and Yasuo hasn't been picked/banned I have to base me entire pick around 'what if they choose Yasuo?' No champion should ever be that polarizing.

And no it's not even his windwall that's the biggest problem. It's the combination of windwall+dashes+passive shield that basically invalidates any skillshot mage. I'm an assassin main myself and don't have much trouble with Yasuo but that's simply by virtue of the champions I choose. I still ban Yasuo consistently for the sake of my team.

Spicy Rice2 votes

You do realize most fighters and mages actually win against yasuo? He has a lot more hard matchups than easy ones.

The trick is, understanding his kit and power spikes, and playing accordingly.

That means play safe till level 4, abd then aggro the shit outta him

Leblancs Boob1 votes

I disagree. Most mages (every one who isn't point-and-click like annie/malz) have an extremely difficult time vs. Yas for obvious reasons. Even melee champs suffer in lane because the only way for them to proc his shield is through dueling, making his shield more-or-less effective health.

Spicy Rice3 votes

As far as I know, most meta mages can beat a yasuo.

It's all about timing

AninLegions7772 votes

Dude that logic works for every champ. If vayne isn't banned I take Rammus jungle just in case. If annie isn't banned, I take Morg supp/mid. I've learned to anticipate enemy picks based on what's left out. Yasuo is just like any other champ. Also, mages excel in locking down targets so yasuo shouldn't be a problem.

MagikarpIsBoss3 votes

True, I see so many people complaining Yasuo, yet they do things like pick Lux and run ignite. It is honestly like they want an excuse to make Yasuo seem more broken than he is (Though he is strong).

Fızz2 votes

yassuo( a challenger yasuo one trick) defeated faker's malzahar. it contradicts what ur saying

Vegathron4 votes

why dont we just give his dash a ammo system, if he kills a unit he dashes through it refunds that dash stack. this will gate his mobility overall while retaining his mid fight mobility as well as give him something to manage (since he doesnt have mana or anything). let it be like velkoz W but stacking upto 5 or 6 stacks.

Dessem3 votes

you can even blame FM to an extent.

I'm probably dumb, but... what's FM?

Mogarl7 votes

item 3022

Dessem2 votes

I'm definitely dumb. Thanks!

I Q3 votes

Honestly, after seeing all of the Yasuo hate threads out there, this one is by far the most reasonable. I like the idea, and I wouldn't mind it being in the game. I would learn to play around it and all, I think it would be better for Yasuo as a champion.

However, I dont think his ULT CD should be increased, he relies on his ult (Unless Fed) to kill most targets. I shouldn't have to outplay someone EVERYTIME I need to kill them without my ult, and they don't either. The fact of the matter is, Yasuo can't get many kills without someone else making mistakes. He is good at finding your mistakes and punishing them. Unless he is fed, he relies on you fucking up. He can not get a kill without his ult if he is behind/neutral gating him to a CD longer then 60 seconds would really punish his midgame, and definitely hurt his midgame. He relies on his ult, as Lux relies on hers. Sure, they have completely different uses, but they both rely entirely on their ult unless fed. There is a reason their ults have low CDs, and it honestly should stay that way.

TL;DR: Yasuo without his Ult (When not fed) needs to chase for long periods of time to get a kill. That is too risky mid-lategame so he can't have a longer ult CD.

Emerald Fang3 votes

Can we just nerf his crits to -25% like jhin? Although I like the E idea; if yas players max E first they give up their damage on their Q with this in exchange for mobility; max Q and give up mobility for damage.

Kingnewgameplus2 votes

Except most yas's max E anyway since all you get for maxing q is 10 base damage per ability point.

Dachinde2 votes

or ya know you could take riven,olaf,renek or cass into him cass being a bit tougher but if you q/w where hes dashing to then he will run right into it and wont be able to dodge your e, block it sure but windwall is on a major cd early.

Automated Riven2 votes

This. Riven and renek just shit all over yas. It's not even funny. (i still ban him cause I hate him tho)

I Q1 votes

I don't have much experience with facing renekton, but facing a Riven isn't fun, but it is not hard. You just need to play passive, farm up until PD. After PD go into a fight and dodge her W and block her ult. You will win as long as you play it right.

Automated Riven2 votes

PD is a long time when you cant farm. and if the riven is letting you farm then she is doing it wrong.

Loza2 votes

I play a bit of Yasuo, although I have not played him recently - GP is my homie now. I understand that E is what makes him a nightmare in lane, but that's also what makes Yasuo unique and able to out-trade certain champions. I haven't played since late-October (if I remember correctly), but Yasuo was annoying because of his build path.

PD, IE, some life steal or frozen mallet, and some tank. With this build-path, Yasuo was just destroying summoner's rift because of how strong and how well these items worked for him.

After seeing the boards, I guess the recent changes - buffs/nerfs - have put Yasuo over the top.

As stated previously, I haven't played the game since late-October, but I am not sure giving a long CD on E is fair. I think it would not be fair because that's what allows Yasuo to be able to trade and -possibly- out-trade.

Buffs/nerfs are easier said than done. There's a lot of things to take account for. For example, Yasuo can get bullied by champions like: Annie Leblanc Ryze Pantheon Darius Another problem is that players refuse to play those champions/don't know how to play those champions. And so if Yasuo were to be nerfed, then what can be a compensation if the nerf is too strong, etc.

These kinds of champs; Yasuo, Ryze, Rengar, Vayne, etc (can't really name more off the top of my head) are hard to balance because their kit is really sensitive and one nerf can make them utterly useless or OP. It isn't easy finding a balance.

Regarding laning phase/after laning phase, Yasuo felt a bit strong mid-late game, but I have never felt that his early was over the top. BUT it does feel that his early game is strong against champions like Syndra TwistedFate Poppy Gnar.

Again, I am honestly unsure on how to balance champions similar to Yasuo because there's a lot of things to take in consideration. According to champion.gg, Yasuo is sitting at a 50.27% win rate and 10.25% play rate in Top lane. Yasuo is sitting at a 49.87% win rate and 9.17% play rate in Mid lane. and he's sitting at a juicy 48.62% ban rate I understand that percentages do not necessarily represent the balance of a champion, but it does illustrate the statistics on how well (on average) the champions does in the current game-state. Using these statistics, (Taking the average) Yasuo sits at a 50.07% win rate and a 9.71% play rate.

Given with how popular he is amongst players, with an average of 50.07% win rate, it can be alarming that he has such a high amount of success with a 9.71% play rate.

Anyway, I feel like I got a little bit off-topic. I feel that Yasuo isn't as strong as the boards claim him to be, but Riot should take a look and -hopefully- find the reason he's doing so well and nerf/give-compensation accordingly

Edit: are hard to balance because their kit is really sensitive and one nerf or **compensation-buff **can make them utterly useless or OP. It isn't easy finding a balance.

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

exahust is op. exahust anyone and they are dead weight. exahyst needs to be nerfed. the movement speed slow basically renders running away or outplaying pointless.

The 2nd Horseman2 votes

I applaud you for giving an ability that would've been murdered if it had a cooldown a cooldown but kept its power.

Lovelle2 votes

Exhaust is the only way that many champions can even deal with Yasuo, especially when he's around full build.

PROJECT Katarìna2 votes

I just dont like his wall a well placed wall can shutdown ranged champions for the whole duration of a teamfight

King of Mongoose1 votes

Noob nerf nasus not yasuo

HateDaddy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=King of Mongoose,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5vRXEmqE,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2016-12-18T17:42:31.619+0000)

Noob nerf nasus not yasuo

square up

King of Mongoose2 votes

u don't have the balls to face me

Sokel1 votes

While his dashes should be capped, his windwall is, by and large, the biggest game breaking mechanic in the game. They need to up the cool down, the size at higher levels, or remove it entirely.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

While his dashes should be capped, his windwall is, by and large, the biggest game breaking mechanic in the game. They need to up the cool down, the size at higher levels, or remove it entirely.

Windwall is fine

Teridax681 votes

I like this idea, though I think that could probably be achieved by tuning the base cooldown on his E, similarly to how LeBlanc was made a lot riskier by having a 0.25 delay added to her Distortion return. Currently, his E base cooldown starts at 0.5 seconds, but if you increased it to 1, and had it reduce itself down to 0 at rank 5, Yasuo would have much more pronounced windows of vulnerability in lane, while having all the freedom of movement he'd need in the late game.

I think another issue is that Yasuo, by his very design, is likely always going to be a lane bully: two hallmarks of lane bully champions are a) cheap, long-ranged damage, and b) mobility that scales with nearby units, including minions, and Yasuo has both of those. Additionally, despite his scaling, he's not great in teamfights, since he falls apart in the middle of the enemy team, and ends up playing more like an assassin than a true light fighter. While his laning phase could use some improvements, it might be worth just balancing him as a lane bully first, and thereby removing his hypercarry component.

Joseraph2 votes

???? Riven, Darius, Trundle, Lucian(relative to bot) and Renekton have neither of those

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