Veigar lost an auto attack worth of damge in nerfs

Curling Veigar·Oct 31, 2015·38 votes·3,753 views

Yet for some reason, his winrate goes down by almost 5%.. wat?

59 Comments

CronofugeOct 31, 201517 votes

They nerfed Vayne's AD by 3 and her WR dropped 2% down to 50% so I'm not surprised to hear that taking out a whole auto's worth of damage dropped veigar's winrate so much. Maybe now I can play him without looking like a bad fotm player. Now I can have an excuse for how bad I play :D

HaIlMonitorOct 31, 201516 votes

They talked about this effect. One of the reds told a story how they put a nerf in the patch notes but forgot to actually implement it and for some reason the champions win rate dropped a bunch after the "supposed" nerf. I am not saying they didn't nerf him but a lot of players think "OMG I only do 1950 damage instead of 2000 HE IS UNPLAYABLE"

Curling VeigarOct 31, 20156 votes

{quoted}

They talked about this effect. One of the reds told a story how they put a nerf in the patch notes but forgot to actually implement it and for some reason the champions win rate dropped a bunch after the "supposed" nerf. I am not saying they didn't nerf him but a lot of players think "OMG I only do 1950 damage instead of 2000 HE IS UNPLAYABLE"

true, his play% dropped too as well as his banrate i think

Athenes LuluOct 31, 20151 votes

Even though people still permaban him in lower divisions.

Not sure about anywhere plat+, but we all know lower divisions are behind when it comes to bans/picks.

xFrostKnightxNov 1, 20152 votes

Season 7 Bronze: Guy's I just discovered we have trinkets!! Wow, when did we get these?!

Kappa

PennsOct 31, 201511 votes

Could either be coincidence, placebo because he got nerfed, or people started playing Lux kek. Also Kayle mid has 54.5% win rate now, so...

Remlap1223Nov 1, 20151 votes

Yes, because AP champions shit all over Veigar. It's not like he has an ultimate that scales with enemy's AP or anything.

Don't bring up Galio, Vlad, or Fizz, because we know exactly why they counter Veigar.

DarkwindNov 1, 20155 votes

Certain AP champions do shit all over Veigar. He can't do anything to Xerath Ziggs Lux because he can't get in range to cage. Kayle does just fine vs him- her ult counters his.

Remlap1223Nov 1, 20151 votes

Do I really have to make a comprehensive list on exactly who counters veigar and who he coutners and why just to prove a point? Argument still stands. And no, Lux doesn't instawin against Veigar, she's a mid range mage with exception to her ultimate, which is generally used point blank anyways.

Yes, obviously if he can't hit them, he can't counter them. And like I said, it's pretty obvious as to why the champions I listed above countered them, as Kayle would fall under that category too. But once again, my point still stands.

BârdNov 1, 20155 votes

What kind of suicidal Lux goes into point blank to use her ultimate?

In any case, she IS long ranged, being able to sit back and destroy from a safe distance. She does, however, benefit from being close enough to basic attack enemies (if they are not capable of killing Lux instantly).

DarkwindNov 1, 20153 votes

Q range- 1175 E Range- 1275 (including radius of detonation)

"mid ranged"

I mean sure, they're not that easy to land on champions outside of a team fight at that range, but you really don't need to....

BârdNov 1, 20152 votes

There are more Anivia Zilean can revive, making them hard to burst down Lulu gets assloads of HP and shields Doesn't even have to build flat AP. A low AP, high penetration/spell effect build works great on him. Karma Mantra E is large enough of a shield that you can block around half the damage of a Veigar ult. % reduced magic damage, magic shield, and the ability to hop out of the cage. A competent Kassadin is a scary thing indeed. Swain Chogath For mages, these guys are TANKY Malzahar Whoever gets off their combo first wins. Karthus Doesn't really care if he dies, it just lets him channel his ultimate Morgana Veigar will not stun you if you pay attention, and since Zhonyas is a core item on Morg, you have the potential to negate his ult. Ekko has high mobility, allowing him to dodge veigars Q, W, and E with ease, a large shield to negate a large portion of his burst, and Chronobreak lets him dodge Veigar ult. Leblanc Just kill him enough early game that he never becomes a factor.

DarkwindNov 1, 20152 votes

Yeah, i was just listing the ones that were relevant to what he was already complaining about.

Curling VeigarNov 1, 20151 votes

Actually, I'll but in.

Zilean was only hard to play vs when his bomb was point and click. Anivia I'll agree with, fuck her. Lulu is really easy to beat. Brand is only annoying if you get hit by his stuff a lot. Karma you just flash ult later and she's dead. Kassadin I'm not sure on now but before his buff he was pretty high risk low reward, swain is managable but cho's pretty dumb, malz pushes which means free farm, karthus dies to you easily because he's so slow, morg I'll agree on, ekko is melee and has no real way to stop you from farming, leblanc just push R on her and she dies. Literally every time.

Curling VeigarOct 31, 201510 votes

Wow, people finally realizing lux is stupid?

CrossetteOct 31, 20154 votes

I made a thread on this and got flamed.

Kek.

Cloud PotatoNov 1, 20152 votes

"How can a champion with 4 skillshots be stupid"

Rustling BushOct 31, 20157 votes

im not saying its this but when ever people hear nerf, they get all sheepish and stop playing that champion leaving less people around to play him. but then again even the slightest changes to a champion can flip their weak-strong switch.

YumaS2AstralOct 31, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Summoner Grey,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5pzfyEUy,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-10-31T18:10:38.560+0000)

im not saying its this but when ever people hear nerf, they get all sheepish and stop playing that champion leaving less people around to play him. but then again even the slightest changes to a champion can flip their weak-strong switch.

Strangely, this does not tend to happen with champions that have been extremely popular over the time. I am talking about Riven Yasuo Zed LeeSin . Whenever they are nerfed, they don't become less popular. They continue to be popular even though they are technically weaker.

This happened with Nidalee and Yasuo once, but Yasuo is popular once again, and I've seen some people returning to use Nidalee as of now.

LajneenOct 31, 20155 votes

That's because they're fun to play.

YumaS2AstralOct 31, 20153 votes

{quoted}

That's because they're fun to play.

Being "fun to play" is a matter of opinion. With the exception of Zed, I don't find any of those champions to be fun to play. And even then there are many other champions I find more fun to play. Most of them are actually immobile mages or unpopular mobile assassins.

LajneenOct 31, 20156 votes

The majority of the community find them fun, hence why they're popular despite being garbage.

Bears Dont CareOct 31, 20156 votes

{quoted}

The majority of the community find them fun, hence why they're popular despite being garbage.

he suggestion of Lee SIn being garbage is laughable in itself.

I Miss CannonOct 31, 20152 votes

why should i play pee sin as long as elise's good

YumaS2AstralOct 31, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bears Dont Care,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5pzfyEUy,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-31T20:49:50.699+0000)

he suggestion of Lee SIn being garbage is laughable in itself.

Lee Sin isn't garbage. It is just that the majority of players don't play him to his full strengths, and even then, most players cannot take advantage of what he can bring to a team. He doesn't deserve that much popularity, he is only popular because most players find him to be fun.

Bears Dont CareNov 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Lee Sin isn't garbage. It is just that the majority of players don't play him to his full strengths, and even then, most players cannot take advantage of what he can bring to a team

Irrelevant, we assume high level of play where he is palyed to his best strengths.

He doesn't deserve that much popularity, he is only popular because most players find him to be fun.

Yes...because statements such as "He is the perfect champion", is totes an indication of him being "fun". Fun is relative.

YumaS2AstralNov 1, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bears Dont Care,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5pzfyEUy,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2015-11-01T02:46:42.204+0000)

Irrelevant, we assume high level of play where he is palyed to his best strengths.

Yes...because statements such as "He is the perfect champion", is totes an indication of him being "fun". Fun is relative.

I don't know what you mean with high level of play. If you mean "very high elos such as Diamond and Challenger" - They are still SoloQ, you will still face teams where you don't know anyone so it is hard to coordinate. If you mean "competitive environment such as LCS" then yes he will be played to his best strengths.

Bears Dont CareNov 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't know what you mean with high level of play. If you mean "very high elos such as Diamond and Challenger" - They are still SoloQ, you will still face teams where you don't know anyone so it is hard to coordinate.

Except again, that does not matter, when we are considering what a champion can accomplish, it must be assumed they are being played at a high enough skill level for their strengths to be utilized effectively, and their weaknesses to be exploited. Under this basis, Lee Sin is not a weak champion, and never has been even during times where his strength wained.

This is why G&B s laughable, everyone assumes a different context outside of the competitive format.

flibitydooNov 1, 20151 votes

and y'know, there's a large number of lee sin plays on youtube and twitch that players see and try to emulate.

like this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4d6gJDWwBw&ab_channel=Diashen

players see this and it's inspiring and it makes them want to keep playing the champion until they figure out how to be good enough at Lee that they can pull off plays like that in their games.

A big part of league of legends is showing skill and progression - heck the whole ranked system is about showing skill by climbing the ladder. A lot of posters on these boards love to show off their rank. Even if it's something small like gold V. And getting good with lee sin takes time and this is true with a lot of the popular champions. This is good champion design because it shows a high skill ceiling: the champion is hard to master, which means that players will play this champion longer. Garen is a low skill ceiling, you figure out his one effective combo and then most players tend to stop playing him (since at this point they feel like they've "mastered" Garen) except when they need him to fulfil a particular niche.

Vayne's another example. In season 4, you couldn't see the word "vayne" without the words "mechanics" or "doublelift" next to them. As a result, a lot of players start playing vayne to get "doublelift levels of vayne mechanics ".

I myself have done things like played a champion to effectively master it at a level where I felt good with him (for me it was Braum, I really wanted to be good at blocking things with unbreakable).

Players practising and trying to get good with a champion also tends to drag that champion down in winrate, which is one of the big reasons why judging champion balance around winrates (especially soloQ) is a bad idea.

Of course this isn't the only reason these champs are played, perception of power and champion theme also lead to champions getting picked. I've picked champions like volibear sometimes cause I felt like going hurr durr i'm a bear rawr and I had fun doing so.

PoskeNov 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Being "fun to play" is a matter of opinion. With the exception of Zed, I don't find any of those champions to be fun to play. And even then there are many other champions I find more fun to play. Most of them are actually immobile mages or unpopular mobile assassins.

Most of people find them fun to play I dont find the new zed fun to play (Since the shadow changes)

Rest of those are fun for me and most of people

kJsNov 1, 20151 votes

I think he meant flashy and #BigLC$outplaypotent champions.

IcyPepperOct 31, 20151 votes

The problem is being fun to play against, though.

I think nobody hates Nidalee as much as before.

WimbledofyNov 1, 20151 votes

but zed is nowhere near as popular as he used to be. You used to see a zed almost every other game, now its not like that as much. Assasins aren't very popular anymore because the meta changed.

Voluug13Nov 1, 20151 votes

Dependson region. For example LAS, oh god LAS is FotM land. Lee Sin, Riven, Yasuo and Zed every game.

DengedenNov 1, 20151 votes

Hopping around the map pretending your being useful is fun :P

LankPantsNov 1, 20155 votes

Rememberer when Syndra lost 20 damage and she went from a solid champ to complete garbage? It doesn't take that much to nerf a champ significantly.

Nausicäa Nov 1, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Rememberer when Syndra lost 20 damage and she went from a solid champ to complete garbage? It doesn't take that much to nerf a champ significantly.

Uhh these two situations are completely different.

Syndra is a lane bully who lost a significant amount of DPS because her q is short cooldown and meant to be spammed.

Veigar does nothing but farm in the early parts of the game so the nerfs are utterly irrelevant.

flibitydooNov 1, 20153 votes

the thing is, is that one of the things about veigar and his Q is that at a certain point in the game, one cast of Q will kill a full health caster minion (2 if you line it up right). Even later into the game, the Q oneshots full hp melees. the Q base damage nerf actually delays that and this is a big deal since rapidly clearing the casters like that basically enables him to powerfarm his Q and really jack up is ap ramp.

DarkwindNov 1, 20151 votes

Not to mention, the cooldown is not that long. So even in terms of dmg vs champions, the base damage nerf is not insignificant over a longer period of time.

SaltyKrackaOct 31, 20152 votes

Base damage is a big thing.

Means it's harder for him to stack, for one thing.

ApexInTheCircleOct 31, 20152 votes

This is going to sound really really.....Odd but I played Veigar last night and lost my lane super freaking bad. I mean super super bad, and I started to think why was I doing so bad , but for the past month whenever I played him I was doing really well.

Then it hit me. That little damage they removed from his Q was making it harder for me to last hit.

I've noticed something with Veigar, when you start getting into your farming mode all your CS with your Q becomes 100% instinctual. To the point where you don't even need to think about LH you just do it. Take into consideration you're used to LH with a certain amount of damage and then remove it and all of the sudden you're missing CS because you're no longer subconsciously LH instead you're having to pay more attention to it and less attention to your lane opponent and you start fowling up.

IMO(again this is just my opinion) This is why his win rate is dropping.

RyzeReworkNov 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

This is going to sound really really.....Odd but I played Veigar last night and lost my lane super freaking bad. I mean super super bad, and I started to think why was I doing so bad , but for the past month whenever I played him I was doing really well.

Then it hit me. That little damage they removed from his Q was making it harder for me to last hit.

I've noticed something with Veigar, when you start getting into your farming mode all your CS with your Q becomes 100% instinctual. To the point where you don't even need to think about LH you just do it. Take into consideration you're used to LH with a certain amount of damage and then remove it and all of the sudden you're missing CS because you're no longer subconsciously LH instead you're having to pay more attention to it and less attention to your lane opponent and you start fowling up.

IMO(again this is just my opinion) This is why his win rate is dropping.

That's not a champions fault that's just the players fault the whole point of playing a stacking champion is to farm if u can't farm then it's no good

ApexInTheCircleNov 3, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Godlike Jungle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5pzfyEUy,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-11-01T09:47:12.349+0000)

That's not a champions fault that's just the players fault the whole point of playing a stacking champion is to farm if u can't farm then it's no good

That's true, but I think you're misinterpreting what I'm trying to say. When everyone becomes complacent with the way a champ functions, even the most tiny of love taps can disrupt a routine that someone has down. I'm not saying it's the champions fault, because clearly people just haven't adapted yet.

I'm just trying to explain why his Win rate took a hit.

Sire HippingtonOct 31, 20152 votes

it's oft the small things that matter. I haven't played veigar since the nerf, but i can imagin the lower q damage fucks up lasthitting with it quite a bit. If it ends up makeing the difference from beeing able to W, then Q to clear two caster minons and not, it does have a big impact, if it means you need an extra AA after an towershot to last hit a melee minion with it, it has a big impact. If it's the difference from an enemie getting away with 40 hp or beeing deadm it has impact...

While i'm sure that veigar still is a strong pick, i do think that most off the people that played him because he'S fotm now have a hard time useing him correctly in lane, which greatly harms his overall performance I also think his Winrate will rise back up a bit after a while, once people got used to the new basedamge and ths new Last-hit patterns.

Slamurai JackOct 31, 20152 votes

Veigars lane is a fair bit weaker now, and for a champion that's so reliant on hard farming, that's a big deal. Also, winrates on the first day for champion.gg always tend to be a little out of wack; give it time.

lB2kGRlc8yNov 1, 20152 votes

Yea, makes you wonder how accurately win/play rate statistics correlate to actual champion balance. I'm convinced its akin to the yipps, but with retard's perceptions affecting their play instead of loss of confidence.

CosnirakNov 1, 20151 votes

It's almost as if win rates are not highly correlated to buffs/nerfs... SHOCKER! (to no one who understands how things actually work)

Meep ManNov 1, 20151 votes

It decreases the power in mind so to speak. Veigars now dont want to do a lot of things they think they can't do because they think they can't do it anymore due to these nerfs. In reality, if you just play the same, you still kill all these nubs.