PLEASE BUFF VISION!!!!!

Hot Belly Dancer·Jun 20, 2016·39 votes·3,193 views

Im tired of always getting ganked 1st because Trinket doesnt last long, and has a long cooldown on it. I dont want to be depending on people to ward, I WANT TO WARD MY AREA because SOME people are still stuck in season 3 where they think its only the supports job to ward. whose idea was it to think that low elo players would co-operate to ward? I miss the days where i warded almost everywhere and not have to play blindly, or be scared to push because you have no vision at all!

Also im tired of no counter play against stealth champs. OR Ganks from unexpected Areas Please buff vision and allow us to put more wards.

72 Comments

DrugsForRobotsJun 21, 201618 votes

Rather than giving us more wards, maybe Riot should give us more interesting options?

Consider that this game has a huge variety of spells and items, and even though there are many similar effects - there are 5 spell-shield effects, for example - all are different. Why doesn't Riot apply more of this design philosophy to sight, stealth, detection, and denial?

Here's a hypothetical pre-season 7 update:

There are now 5 different 75g wards, each unique and powerful in it's own way. Each player can only have 1.

The Snitch:

Invisible.
Gives a visible / audible ping whenever an enemy champion enters its range.

Doesn't grant any vision.
Enemy champions can hear the ping it gives off.

The Beacon:

Sight in a large AoE around it.
Grants unobstructed sight 'through' terrain.

Can only be placed on terrain.
Is visible to enemies through the Fog of War.

The Sentry:

True Sight.
Indestructible.

Vision is limited to a cone that rotates, completing one rotation every X seconds.
Is visible to enemy champions, and they can see the cone as it rotates.

The Observer:

Invisible.
Grants continuous sight in a long, narrow line from ahead and behind.

Can be seen at very close ranges.
It's line of sight is blocked by all units, terrain, brush, and structures.

The Beholder:

True Sight in a large AoE around it.
Infinite duration.

Is visible to enemy champions.
Periodically 'turns off' for a short while.

Would you buy these? How would you use them? How would you outplay them?

You may notice that the Snitch is basically the iceboxed 'mandrake ward' that was on the PBE about a year ago. Riot really touched on something great when they came up with the idea, IDK why they haven't come back to it.

The Beholder is my version of the Vision Ward. Riot's idea to make to make the Vision Ward visible and with infinite duration is brilliant design. I think the tweaking of the attributes of wards (their health, their duration, their sight) is exactly what Riot needs to do.

For a more detailed, prettier mockup of what I'm talking about, head to the LoL Wiki: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:LivesByProxy/Ward_Variety_%26_Sight_Options#Ward_Constructs

Seriously, we need to get Riot and the LoL community to have a serious discussion about vision!

BloodyTomponJun 21, 20162 votes

While I do there there are some improvements to vision that could be done, there is a real issue in adding more vision options. There is a subtle difference between game depth and complexity. A game like Halo doesn't have much complexity, but it has a huge amount of depth. The goal is to maximise depth with minimal complexity. Complexity for the sake of complexity is generally not a good goal. The vision system we have at the moment offers a significant amount of depth for a very low amount of complexity, so I'd be hesitant to introduce any significant changes without a well defined problem space.

Having said that, I'll head to that and have a look at the page.

DrugsForRobotsJun 21, 20162 votes

My intention wasn't complexity for complexity's sake. Each of these ward ideas should fulfill a precise and unique function, and each has it's own drawbacks and tradeoffs, including inherent forms of counterplay in the wards themselves.

Part of what gives Halo it's enormous depth is the interesting and unique weapons it has and the playstyles they offer, right? I think that with a system of wards like this, each player can build (ward) to suit his or her playstyle, or the playstyle / comp of his or her opponents.

BloodyTomponJun 21, 20162 votes

Yes and no. Halo has very few weapons, fewer still once that offer different play styles. The weapons aren't the main things that give Halo its depth, it's the nature of FPS that creates it's depth: The levels themselves, the movement and sight and the psychological aspect. Those give rise to a huge number of stats and tactics. E.g., Ambushing. Those are the main constituents of depth in that game. The guns are more of a side system aimed at furthering the the various play-styles that naturally arise rather than something that creates differing play styles in and off itself: If you want to ambush a short-ranged high damage gun is for you. Vision has a somewhat analogous role in that it is a supporting system rather than the main attraction. The supporting system being knowledge state. (Sorry for the tangent)

Having looked over the wiki page, I do think there are a number of interesting things there. The snitch is the one I like the most, it's a way of altering knowledge state without granting vision. I like the idea of terrain targeting ward, although I do not like that it circumvents the terrain vision. The non-circular vision granting is something I think has merit too. The one I dislike is the beholder.

Trinkets I don't think are as well developed as the wards. Lantern looks like it's entire set use cases are encompasses in blue orb. The root problem of the others is vision denial is really difficult to pull off well. I can't really give much feedback on the denial aspect because I haven't thought about it enough,

DrugsForRobotsJun 21, 20161 votes

You said:

It's the nature of FPS that creates it's depth: The levels themselves, the movement and sight and the psychological aspect.

I agree with this 100%. The same also applies to League, I think, which is effectively an RTS. Interestingly, despite all the RTSs I've played, very few really explore stealth or scouting or info mechanics (mostly because it's versus an AI opponent and the levels are set in stone). That said, Riot knows that the majority of this game's action revolves around imperfect information as each team constantly maneuvers for a new angle of attack, trying to get picks or bait the opposing team into a bad position.

That's why I'm so adamant about Riot playing up sight, stealth, detection, and denial effects - it's one of the core mechanics of the RTS that has gone virtually unexplored since the genre's inception back in the day. Hell, even the modern stuff like Overwatch, Heroes of the Storm, Battleborn, Gigantic, Smite, Paragon, Heroes of Newerth, Strife, and DotA2 have all failed to really explore this space. League is poised to be the 1st and arguably the best.

Also, thanks for looking over them! Any reason in particular you didn't like the Beholder? What would you do to give Pink Wards inherent counterplay / outplay potential?

And, yes, the trinkets were not so well developed, but that's where the LoL community and Riot comes in. :p

BloodyTomponJun 22, 20161 votes

I had a fairly large reply and felt like I was ranting on (and I got too tired to function half way through). I'll do focused replies directly.

Also, thanks for looking over them! Any reason in particular you didn't like the Beholder?

I disliked that there were periods of complete absence.

What would you do to give Pink Wards inherent counterplay / outplay potential?

This is where I ended up ranting and delving into the current and future state and also where I would head. :/ Too long to post atm.

And, yes, the trinkets were not so well developed, but that's where the LoL community and Riot comes in. :p

My advice would be to merge them with the wards like Riot has in game. Back in the day supports would only buy boots and wards because they could place as many as they could afford. Supports are forced to shoulder ward duty if they are purchasable and the burden becomes greater the more they are able to do it. By having trinkets not placing wards the wards have to be purchasable instead. If you merge them supports wouldn't have that yoke and everybody contributes more to the ward game.

AstôlfoJun 21, 20163 votes

Indestructible and/or extremely long-range wards are just a horrible idea.

DrugsForRobotsJun 21, 20161 votes

Even if they have tons of counterplay inherent to the wards themselves?

For example, the Sentry is visible, as is its cone of vision. You can try to run past it, or, if you attack it quickly, you can disable it momentarily. It's also possible to take a different gank path / route, which is what junglers do anyway when they suspect an area is warded, yeah?

The Observer is vulnerable to discovery, and even though it grants sight over an extremely long range, fast enemies can zip by it, or use invisibility to bypass it, or, as always, a different gank route.

AstôlfoJun 21, 20161 votes

If a ward is indestructible by the enemy, it should have a time limit to how long it can live.

DrugsForRobotsJun 21, 20161 votes

It does. Each of these wards lasts 3 minutes, excluding the Beholder (whose special is infinite duration).

Check out the LoL Wiki mockup for the details and pretty pictures!

Oakleaf RangerJun 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Rather than giving us more wards, maybe Riot should give us more interesting options?

Consider that this game has a huge variety of spells and items, and even though there are many similar effects - there are 5 spell-shield effects, for example - all are different. Why doesn't Riot apply more of this design philosophy to sight, stealth, detection, and denial?

Here's a hypothetical pre-season 7 update:

There are now 5 different 75g wards, each unique and powerful in it's own way. Each player can only have 1.

The Snitch:

Invisible.

Gives a visible / audible ping whenever an enemy champion enters its range.

Doesn't grant any vision.

Enemy champions can hear the ping it gives off.

The Beacon:

Sight in a large AoE around it.

Grants unobstructed sight 'through' terrain.

Can only be placed on terrain.

Is visible to enemies through the Fog of War.

The Sentry:

True Sight.

Indestructible.

Vision is limited to a cone that rotates, completing one rotation every X seconds.

Is visible to enemy champions, and they can see the cone as it rotates.

The Observer:

Invisible.

Grants continuous sight in a long, narrow line from ahead and behind.

Can be seen at very close ranges.

It's line of sight is blocked by all units, terrain, brush, and structures.

The Beholder:

True Sight in a large AoE around it.

Infinite duration.

Is visible to enemy champions.

Periodically 'turns off' for a short while.

Would you buy these? How would you use them? How would you outplay them?

You may notice that the Snitch is basically the iceboxed 'mandrake ward' that was on the PBE about a year ago. Riot really touched on something great when they came up with the idea, IDK why they haven't come back to it.

The Beholder is my version of the Vision Ward. Riot's idea to make to make the Vision Ward visible and with infinite duration is brilliant design. I think the tweaking of the attributes of wards (their health, their duration, their sight) is exactly what Riot needs to do.

For a more detailed, prettier mockup of what I'm talking about, head to the LoL Wiki: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:LivesByProxy/Ward_Variety_%26_Sight_Options#Ward_Constructs

Seriously, we need to get Riot and the LoL community to have a serious discussion about vision!

Blow the horn and signal the age of VISION WARS, where supports fight to the death over vison of a bush I just finished taking a dump in.

Indestructible wards sounds like a bad idea though

DrugsForRobotsJun 22, 20161 votes

The Sentry can be disabled with 3 attacks. If you're fast enough it can be taken down before it's vision rotates back around.

Mr FidoriJun 21, 20162 votes

This is a really good idea! Not necessarily down to the specifics of course (no one expects you to design perfect vision in one try in the comments), but I think much more diverse vision could be the key, rather than more vision.

DrugsForRobotsJun 22, 20161 votes

Thanks! Diverse forms of vision is definitely the key, IMO.

Also, I was actually working on these on and off over a couple of months. Follow the link for a better presentation and more details!

Mr FidoriJun 22, 20161 votes

Oops I'm dumb and didn't see that. Still, good work!

PartholonianJun 21, 20162 votes

I really like the spirit of this idea (don't really want to get into the specifics right now), but as I posted downthread, I think the most important issue is that the vision system should be completely separated from the gold and regular items system. Mixing them has bad effects on people who are forced to sacrifice their item progression to spam more vision.

item 2049 item 2043 item 3711 and all their upgrades should be deleted from the game and replaced with more trinket-like systems (i.e. have their own slots and don't cost gold), and item 3092 should have its active reworked again or reverted to the old skillshot one (although IIRC nobody really liked that active, which is why it was axed in the first place). Gold should be focused on the things that it's good for.

This would also eliminate "vision snowballing" -- if you can't buy more vision then you have to use what you have more intelligently, instead.

DrugsForRobotsJun 22, 20161 votes

Riot's introduction of the trinkets was an attempt to separate the vision game from gold. I'm not sure how to feel about deleting Sightstone and the Tracker's Knife - I get your reasoning, but it seems so drastic! Maybe with a system of 'one special ward per player' the SS would have a unique passive like: "Ward limit increased by 2."

I'm against "vision snowballing" as well, but I'd like to think that limiting the vision game to '1 ward per player' + your choice of trinket + w/e champion abilities would be more than enough.

I also think that 75g for a powerful, special ward is a bargain. Maybe Riot could increase the rewards for finding / destroying enemy wards?

Also, one idea I had a while back was letting the trinket key (4 by default) toggle between two inventories - one for regular items, and the other for trinkets, wards, and consumables. Not sure how practical that is though. The feedback I got was 'not more inventory management!'

Regarding the ward ideas above, I now imagine that purchasing a ward would have it occupy the trinket slot_ until you place it_, then freeing up your trinket for use. This should emphasize that wards are for defensive territory control purposes, whereas trinkets are more for on-the-fly sight and scouting purposes.

IDK I'm just brainstorming here, but it's good that we at least talk about it, which is more than Riot seems willing to do. ;c

Riot, please.

PokladnicaZlaJun 22, 20161 votes

Although your concept it pretty good I don't like it. Spending 75g on a ward which is visible through the fog of war or at all times,seems like a waste of gold.

Papa SlothyJun 22, 20161 votes

and yet we HAVE to buy them because of how little options we have

DrugsForRobotsJun 22, 20161 votes

The idea is that it deters enemies from going to that area or they risk being collapsed on. It's visible so that the enemies can outplay it by skirting it's vision radius, taking an alternate path, or using invisibility.

It's also useful in that, for instance, you can have vision of blue buff, the other side of blue buff wall, and wolves all at the same time (because it sees over terrain). Placed correctly, you could also get vision of dragon while having the path from enemy tri-bush and river covered. You have to be ready to defend it though. Thankfully, it's got 5 health and is only attackable by ranged champions, meaning that if the enemy is foolish enough to opt for a full melee team, then you can rest easy knowing that the Beacon will do work this game. (In a similar fashion, if the enemy goes full stealth then the Sentry and Snitch and Beholder will be your best friends.)

PartholonianJun 21, 20164 votes

I disagree, the game is better off when you can see some, but not all of the areas you care about seeing. That forces you to make choices about when you are going to do something risky like push the other guy into turret, or chase. And "the game should be changed because my teammates play it badly" is not a good argument for anything.

I think the current amount of vision is about right, but it should be obtained differently. Delete all forms of vision that cost gold and compete with regular items (sightstone, pinks, tracker's, I'd even include FQC active; without the slow it could be converted into the new system though), and replace them with an expansion of the trinket system, or another non-gold-based system (on top of trinkets, like every champion can have 1 trinket and after 15 minutes or level 9 or whatever, can also have 1 gizmo).

"Do I want vision, or do I want stats" is a fake choice: if you want to win the game, you want someone on your team to have vision, occasionally two people, and the rest to have stats. And then it's a lot less fun to be the guy with no stats because he just blows up instantly and can't affect fights the way his kit should. But you have to do it even if you hate it, because otherwise you'll lose and make your team lose too. [zombie-nunu-bummed]

DrugsForRobotsJun 21, 20163 votes

Finally! Someone who gets it!

A huge part of the excitement of this game is having imperfect info, which is why too much vision is a bad thing, obviously. My question is: why won't Riot give us more interesting and varied forms of vision?

Friendly RamJun 21, 20164 votes

i just wish they gave back the option for pink trinkets.

DrugsForRobotsJun 21, 20161 votes

It would help against stealth champions, and clearing out enemy wards, very true.

But it doesn't address the elephant in the room, which is stealth.

What's the counterplay for an instant speed consumable 'now you see them' effect?

IMO, the only way we can do stealth any justice is if each form of invisibility had inherent counterplay (like Eve's detection range, or Rengar's ! icon, or Shaco's puff of smoke and cackling), and each counter to stealth is softened drastically (with the possible exception being PInk Wards). Riot has done an amazing job with telegraphing champion abilities - I'd like to see some of that design carry over into sight and detection options.

ModAcademy KaynJun 21, 20163 votes

When people can ward out their lane fully enough that ganking isn't an issue, than junglers are often as a role that becomes, well, useless. It means that they are incentivized to only farm, since ganking becomes a waste of time. Not being able to ward all around means that you actually have to be concerned when it comes to pushing an enemy into tower. It becomes risky and junglers can do more than farm, and gank more, since there will be actual moments of ganking time while vision down.

When i'm laning mid lane, the only time I ward is when I'm extremely pushing. Ganks from afar are easier to deal with because I'm close enough to my turret to be able to retreat safely (Ignoring Nocturne Ults) to my tower, because I have the minion wave settled in the middle. I ward when I push hard so I have more time to retreat or plan, in case someone does gank.

TL:DR: There should be a risk when it comes to pushing someone to their turret. Being able to fully cover your lane lowers that risk to the point of being uncatchable, while junglers are forced to farm, rather than gank.

EddardStark84Jun 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5jWxzrAO,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-06-21T05:03:50.530+0000)

When people can ward out their lane fully enough that ganking isn't an issue, than junglers are often as a role that becomes, well, useless. It means that they are incentivized to only farm, since ganking becomes a waste of time. Not being able to ward all around means that you actually have to be concerned when it comes to pushing an enemy into tower. It becomes risky and junglers can do more than farm, and gank more, since there will be actual moments of ganking time while vision down.

When i'm laning mid lane, the only time I ward is when I'm extremely pushing. Ganks from afar are easier to deal with because I'm close enough to my turret to be able to retreat safely (Ignoring Nocturne Ults) to my tower, because I have the minion wave settled in the middle. I ward when I push hard so I have more time to retreat or plan, in case someone does gank.

TL:DR: There should be a risk when it comes to pushing someone to their turret. Being able to fully cover your lane lowers that risk to the point of being uncatchable, while junglers are forced to farm, rather than gank.

This is all bullshit. Vision is an issue right now.. ESPECIALLY against stealth.

AstôlfoJun 21, 20161 votes

Uh, no it's not. Pink wards exist. Common sense exists - although it might not for you. Basic intelligence exists - although it might not for you.

EddardStark84Jun 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Uh, no it's not. Pink wards exist. Common sense exists - although it might not for you. Basic intelligence exists - although it might not for you.

Holy toxic hell.

Hot Belly DancerJun 22, 20162 votes

he's bronze 4 what did you expect :^)

Hot Belly DancerJun 21, 20161 votes

the problem is,in low elo there are barely wards placed, only the support has sighstone, which isnt enough. low elo players dont know what teamwork is. i only want to be able to place 2 pinks and 3wards at best.

AstôlfoJun 21, 20163 votes

That's not a problem with vision. That's a problem with them. Vision doesn't need buffs. They need to become more intelligent.

PartholonianJun 21, 20161 votes

Or you need to become intelligent and/or mechanically skilled enough to climb above them and not get them as teammates. Teammates who never ward are strictly a low elo problem because players of ANY role who never ward are going to stay low elo.

ZT XperimentorJun 21, 20161 votes

You'd be surprised how many people ignore the minimap.

ModAcademy KaynJun 21, 20161 votes

I was one of those tunnel vision players who could ward his entire lane to perfection and still get ganked and die T~T. Now I have an excuse.

ZT XperimentorJun 21, 20161 votes

Everyone does that when they're still learning the game, I just became paranoid of it and check it every few seconds. Some of my friends though don't so I try to keep them updated on what I detect.

AstôlfoJun 21, 20163 votes

That's not the problem of vision, that's just people being dumb enough to not ward. It doesn't matter what lane you're in, if you conserve and use your wards well, you'll have enough vision to avoid ganks most of the time, and the other part of the time when you don't, if you have any common sense, you'd know not to stay overextended too long for a gank to be coming. It shouldn't be that easy to ward everywhere, because the whole point is that you have to take risks because otherwise, it completely defeats the point of them even trying to come gank/flank/whatever. That would be a horrible idea.

"no counter play against stealth champs"

Well, I suppose pink wards don't exist anymore. Or, maybe you just don't know how to use them.

"ganks from unexpected areas"

Gee, then maybe put them in places they might jump/blink/whatever from? With Zac for instance, along the center of the river and then the enemy bush closer to them is generally good. This prevents him from coming straight down the river, going into your jungle and then leaping over the wall (because you'd see him coming), from jumping out of the enemy bush, etc etc. All it takes is some basic intelligence and a few seconds to use your common sense.

tl;dr - Vision doesn't need buffs at all and your complaints are just illogical/meaningless

Whomp3rJun 21, 20162 votes

it makes lcs boring tho

NineTailedMysticJun 21, 20162 votes

It always is.

DrugsForRobotsJun 21, 20161 votes

Maybe the LCS would be more exciting if wards had an even greater fallibility? I mean wards that have inherent counterplay, and give all players bronze and pro alike, a chance to play around them.

If so much of this game's excitement comes from jockeying for position, trying to outmaneuver the enemy, bait them into an area you control, or attack from an unforseen angle, wouldn't more interesting (unique) wards go a long way toward that? Wouldn't the game become more tense (in a good way) as vision is not only scarce, but no guarantee of safety?

q O y O pJun 21, 20162 votes

I got an idea.

Contested vision shrines for bot/top lane. Mid does not require any further vision as it should remain an area where player inventory vision is placed.

You kill the shrine, similar to scuttle or wolf spirit. Only this shine allows you to place it anywhere in the river and it blinks @ a rate of x/second. The more times the shrine is killed (it would gain HP every time), the quicker the blinking is until it stays on like a normal vision ward.

Perhaps place it in the bot/top lane tri-bush or the river bush that are closest to the lanes.

You could also put the shrine respawn on a random timer so that it would encourage players to ward the bush to see when the shrine is back up.

DrugsForRobotsJun 21, 20161 votes

Here's a similar take on the same idea. IDK how practical it is, but I think it's neat.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/File:LivesByProxy_League_of_Legends_SecretCave_Idea.jpg

xxxDogmanxxxJun 21, 20162 votes

I just want a Sightstone that gives Pink Wards.

Your Real MomJun 21, 20162 votes

Ward count is way too low. Buying pinks helps but not really. I feel the ward limitation was a horrible idea considering map awareness is very critical in this game as is. Bring back sight wards please. There was literally no reason to get rid of them in the first place.

DrugsForRobotsJun 21, 20161 votes

I mean, sight (stealth) wards were great, but too much vision (info) makes the game less exciting.

Personally, I think the 1 ward-per-player rule is a good way to give each champion a reason to pick up a ward.

Now, if we had a greater selection of unique and powerful wards, each player could pick up the one that they feel best compliments their champion or lane, or makes up for a weakness, or specifically to hinder certain gank techniques (stealth) and routes.

Did you know that Shaco has 3 ways of playing with vision inherent to his kit? Also, with vision being rather scarce, it makes my Support Shaco pick awesome. The vision range of Jack in the Box is stupidly large (almost as large a radius as regular wards!)