Let zephyr stack with Merc Treads

Woook3r·Dec 17, 2014·2 votes·1,409 views

Dear Riot,

I hate getting CC'd. Lets just let it all stack and nerf nunu. That or make me a bruiser that has a 30% CC reduction passive such that I can build him to around 500 MS.

Sincerely, MightySaturn

32 Comments

Leti the YetiDec 17, 20142 votes

We dont need Irelia having passive 100% tenacity

Lord DusteonDec 17, 20141 votes

{quoted}

We dont need Irelia having passive 100% tenacity

Come on, it'd only be like 88% tenacity max.

JustMyBassCannonDec 17, 20141 votes

Passive + Zephyr + Mercs + Tenacious Mastery 40% + 35% + 35% + 15%

40%, then 35% of 60 = +21%, then 35% of 39 = +13.65%, then 15% of 25.35 = +3.8025% for a grand total of 78.4525% Tenacity. Because the system rounds to thousandths, 78.453%

Leti the YetiDec 17, 20141 votes

well, its not 100% but that doesnt make it seem any better ;l its like if olaf had a gap closer...

Lord DusteonDec 17, 20141 votes

{quoted}

Passive + Zephyr + Mercs + Tenacious Mastery 40% + 35% + 35% + 15%

40%, then 35% of 60 = +21%, then 35% of 39 = +13.65%, then 15% of 25.35 = +3.8025% for a grand total of 78.4525% Tenacity. Because the system rounds to thousandths, 78.453%

Elixer or Iron currently works with all the other sources of tenacity though, so the max would be 83.83975%, for 83.84% tenacity.

JustMyBassCannonDec 17, 20142 votes

And if we just toss in the Juggernaut jungle enchantment, we hit a grand total of 89.4958375, or 89.496% Tenacity.

10.5% CC effectiveness, the longest CC in the game is gonna last less than 0.6 seconds ^^'

Lord DusteonDec 17, 20141 votes

{quoted}

And if we just toss in the Juggernaut jungle enchantment, we hit a grand total of 89.4958375, or 89.496% Tenacity.

10.5% CC effectiveness, the longest CC in the game is gonna last less than 0.6 seconds ^^'

And if we added in U.R.F. (C'mon, it's possible!), for 92.1219, or 92.122% (this is assuming U.R.F.'s was +25% tenacity, not a flat 25).

Woook3rDec 17, 20141 votes

You are all wrong.

Frozen mallet on the adc would deal with this. It applies a single target slow of 35% on hit. So if you are being auto'd 2x per second, you are perma slowed unless you have 100% tenacity. In my opinion, this would actually make frozen mallet a viable, interesting buy.

I am still interested in a bruiser/tank with passive reduction.

JustMyBassCannonDec 17, 20142 votes

Frozen Mallet slow lasts 1.5 seconds.

78.5% CC reduction means that it lasts 0.323 seconds.

Still can't keep up with/escape an Ireila. Equilibrium Strike and Bladesurge exist.

Woook3rDec 17, 20141 votes

Its called balancing. Reduce stats then let it stack. So early game cc is more effective, late game cc less effective. So i dont get stun locked late game in a team fight. I HATE THAT.

JustMyBassCannonDec 17, 20141 votes

The only way to make Tenacity stacking balanced would be to nerf current Tenacity values so that the stacking doesn't end up much higher than it can already go. Which would be difficult and convoluted, considering that the few stacking sources already stack multiplicatively.

If you didn't get that, then get this: Tenacity is balanced as it is, and it's strong enough.

If you want to avoid getting stun-locked in a team fight, you have options. Irelia and Mundo both have innate Tenacity. Olaf, Alistar and Gangplank have innate CC removal. Poppy's ultimate ignores any CC or damage that doesn't come from her main target. Or you can just play smart, because outplaying their CC is easier than learning how to play 6 specific champs.

Woook3rDec 17, 20141 votes

UH. Thats convoluted? Difficult? Wow. You get dressed in the morning? You lower tenacity from zephyr and merc treads at the same time. Thats one step mate.

Still too complicated? Sure...how bout a cap on tenacity? Thats really simple. 60% Max tenacity. Cooldown reduction already has the same thing. Set the cap at 60% if you want. Set it to where 2 autos/sec from frozen mallet gives a constant slow. Whatever. Just make it easier for me to get to. I like zephyr. I like Phage. I hate cc. Not fond of Irelia. Mundo is cheesy. Gangplank is a joke.

You are weirdly short sighted. "Reduce Tenacity values? What? Thats so hard!"

????

JustMyBassCannonDec 17, 20142 votes

You are rather simple-minded.

Tenacity is already balanced around the way it is designed. Changing the system is over-complicating things, because that means you have to rebalance Tenacity, and possibly rebalance CC around the rebalanced Tenacity if things aren't as they are now. The only reason you don't see it as complicated is probably a lack of understanding mechanics.
Comparing Tenacity to CDR is like comparing Health to Mana Regen. Entirely unrelated stats with entirely different purposes, have rarely been on the same item at the same time, and don't have any scaling relevant to each other. And why not just view the 35% Tenacity as a cap on item tenacity?
I did not say that reducing Tenacity would be hard. I said that it would be difficult and convoluted to find the right numbers for a stack-able Tenacity stat, because it already scales multiplicatively with the few sources that do stack. The math behind it is more complex than you think, in very small words so you understand what I mean. 25% Tenacity plus 25% Tenacity does not equal 50%, it equals 43.75%, because multiplicative scaling.

Considering that there's a jungler enchantment for Tenacity, we'd have to balance 3 Tenacity items to give a total of 35-40% Tenacity when stacked together, because players would want to stack it. That means these three items would grant 13.35% to 15.5% Tenacity apiece.

"No they wouldn't--"

Yes, they would. Because Tenacity is already balanced around being 35% from items. They would need to rebalance the system if passive CC resistance from items could go above that.

Not really. Why bother to get dressed? Clothes are so damn weird.

Woook3rDec 17, 20141 votes

"I did not say that reducing Tenacity would be hard. I said that it would be difficult"

Im sorry. What?

JustMyBassCannonDec 17, 20141 votes

Are you incapable of reading an entire thought before taking things out of context, you fucking troll?

Woook3rDec 17, 20141 votes

Yes I am.

Please try and explain to me the subtle difference between saying something is hard vs. saying something would be difficult and convoluted. I am also capable of talking on the internet without using the f'word.

It looks like you dont actually think things through. It looks like you are just the type of person who regurgitates the things you have read from other people. For instance, calling me a troll when I am sincere. I want to make frozen mallet a viable item by making stacking tenacity more effective. I want a class of supports who have true cc which ignores tenacity. Thats what could set a support apart from an off support. In case you hadnt noticed, most supports can solo lane. I.E. Morgana, Zilean.

JustMyBassCannonDec 17, 20141 votes

{quoted}

Yes I am.

Please try and explain to me the subtle difference between saying something is hard vs. saying something would be difficult and convoluted.

I did not say that changing the numbers would be hard to do.

I said it would be difficult and convoluted--finding the right numbers would be more trouble than it's worth--due to the way the system works right now. Because of how Tenacity is currently scaled, designed and balanced, making this one change would require either a lot of number-juggling to find the right balance, or it would require rehauling the system. It's difficult to find the exact balance point for stackable Tenacity, and convoluted, considering the system already works.

The actual change of the numbers is not what's difficult. Calculating how those changes affect balance, and figuring out the perfect numbers to use, that's difficult and convoluted for the purpose of this change.

I am also capable of talking on the internet without using the f'word.

Because it's so much more mature to play the idiot than it is to swear. Please, o paragon of maturity, perhaps you can teach us the best way to argue on the internet without looking like a massive prick--wait, you fucked that one up.

It looks like you dont actually think things through. It looks like you are just the type of person who regurgitates the things you have read from other people. For instance, calling me a troll when I am sincere. I want to make frozen mallet a viable item by making stacking tenacity more effective. I want a class of supports who have true cc which ignores tenacity. Thats what could set a support apart from an off support. In case you hadnt noticed, most supports can solo lane. I.E. Morgana, Zilean.

No, I just don't bother to explain the exact context of what I'm saying. I don't want to waste time and writing on a person who's not going to read a wall of text explaining exactly what I mean. I mean, look at you; you couldn't read the whole sentence before stopping at the word "Difficult" because difficult and hard are synonymous. How can I trust you with a wall explaining exactly what I mean if you shut down that fast?
Frozen Mallet has its niche. It doesn't need to be more widespread, which is most likely why Riot removed Phage from its build path. And making Tenacity stack is not going to make Frozen Mallet any more important than it is now.
This change doesn't get anything that you wanted, except for champions capable of ignoring CC that isn't Airborne or Suppression. But everyone who actually knows what that would imply doesn't want it. CC-proof Irelia is terrifying enough. Giving that to Shyvana, Jarvan, Vi, Xin Zhao, Malphite, Trundle and pretty much every single bruiser on the roster is going to bring back the League of Bruisers, which nobody--nobody who went through that and wasn't a bruiser main--wants to happen.

Woook3rDec 17, 20141 votes

Balancing tenacity is rolled up into reducing tenacity. Set it to where 2 autos/sec from frozen mallet gives a constant slow. Thats pretty simple. Its also probably around 50%-60% tenacity. Which btw is ALREADY achievable through the various items and elixers. I just want to build zephyr and merc treads. I like high MS! I hate CC! I am a bruiser main! I like Darius. He is overpowered, but i like him cause he jets around with phage and his MS passive! I also liked Hecarim before I figured our he was WAAAY to weak early game.

BTW You are the one who became insulting first. Dont call me a troll just because you disagree. You are the one puttin on airs because you think tenacity multiplicative stacking is soooo complicated but you understand it. Wow. I have a degree in physics. You dont see me bringing that up to shame people do you? No. I am just saying it in my own defense.

Also, it SOUNDS like a CC cap at 60% would make irrelia LESS effective!!!! BC her TEnacity is above that with her passive. I havnt done the math ok? I just want to run around with my merc boots and my zephyr fast as fuck. Get off my back you weirdo.

You really just like to rage dont you? I read your first comment about how convoluted rebalancing tenacity would be. I said that you were complaining that it would be too hard. You said you werent saying it would be hard. You said it would be difficult and convoluted. I asked you what the difference was.

I just think you are wrong. Get over it. You get mad whenever anyone disagree's? GL with that. I only get mad when people curse to me and that doesnt really happen irl. Because its not polite and you would get fired for it.

JustMyBassCannonDec 18, 20141 votes

{quoted}

Balancing tenacity is rolled up into reducing tenacity. Set it to where 2 autos/sec from frozen mallet gives a constant slow. Thats pretty simple. Its also probably around 50%-60% tenacity. Which btw is ALREADY achievable through the various items and elixers. I just want to build zephyr and merc treads. I like high MS! I hate CC! I am a bruiser main! I like Darius. He is overpowered, but i like him cause he jets around with phage and his MS passive! I also liked Hecarim before I figured our he was WAAAY to weak early game.

If you like Zephyr, build Boots of Swiftness with them. Sure, you don't get 25 MR. In exchange, more MS and slow resistance. Yay, meta-building that makes sense!

BTW You are the one who became insulting first. Dont call me a troll just because you disagree. You are the one putting on airs because you think tenacity multiplicative stacking is soooo complicated but you understand it. Wow. I have a degree in physics. You don't see me bringing that up to shame people do you? No. I am just saying it in my own defense.

No, you actually started it. We were all just pointing out that Tenacity would scale to ridiculously high numbers on anyone, especially Irelia, and your immediate response is "You are all wrong." THAT is you starting off insulting all three of us.
The one time I called you a troll, I was specifically referring to the point when you were taking what I said out of context in the same way that a troll would. Because reading a whole fucking sentence is hard.
And I'm a certified computer programmer who took enough Physics classes to understand how to program a physics engine. Now, if you're done with the irrelevant one-up-man-ship, are you trying to tell me you knew, before this thread, how Tenacity scaled?

Also, it SOUNDS like a CC cap at 60% would make irrelia LESS effective!!!! BC her TEnacity is above that with her passive. I havnt done the math ok? I just want to run around with my merc boots and my zephyr fast as fuck. Get off my back you weirdo.

Buy Swifts and Zephyr, still run fast as fuck. Tenacity scales fine as it is, get off Riot's back, player #14,925,418 who doesn't understand the concept of game balance.

You really just like to rage dont you? I read your first comment about how convoluted rebalancing tenacity would be. I said that you were complaining that it would be too hard. You said you werent saying it would be hard. You said it would be difficult and convoluted. I asked you what the difference was.

I don't rage. Sure, I get frustrated, but people read anger where there is none. If I was angry at the forums and the game, why would I keep coming back to them? That sounds like some extremely masochistic mental damage to take.

And you didn't read the whole sentence. You still haven't. You don't really care what I'm saying, you just want to discredit me at the instant you find what you perceive to be self-contradiction.

I just think you are wrong. Get over it. You get mad whenever anyone disagree's? GL with that. I only get mad when people curse to me and that doesn't really happen irl. Because its not polite and you would get fired for it.

Have you actually had a job before? Because, every job I've had, I never got fired for swearing. Maybe it's because I know the proper context for swearing, or the fact that every single one of my bosses occasionally swore. Warehouses, construction, programming, game industry, fast food, retail...as long as you know when it's acceptable, nobody gives a damn.

And, again, I'm not mad. Frustrated, sure; you're trying to play the victim with your horrible idea. But if I was actually angry, I probably wouldn't be on the forums.

Woook3rDec 18, 20141 votes

I am just saying that I like bruisers bc of the styling (kind of manly) and** I'd like to be able to hit and run like the ranged casters do. ** Thats one of the reasons I like tanky tenacious darius. He has hella high MS. Also hecarim is cool at times. Just too weak. You dont seem to think that would be fair. WHY? Ezreal just kites all day. Thats like hit and run. Can you please reboot and just explain. Without becoming deliberately insulting? Feel free to disagree politely.

Woook3rDec 18, 20141 votes

I dont particularly even build damage on him. Just tank. boots. Hydra. and tf. I need that last item slot to make me faster. not harder hitting. Im not on riots back btw. They fixed the sion rework to make it better. thats good. im not on their back.

JustMyBassCannonDec 18, 20141 votes

You want to play a bruiser that has a hit-and-run playstyle, so your first step in logic is that you must be able to stack Tenacity for that to work.

Not, say, playing as Jayce or Lee Sin, the two best bruisers for hit-and-run, bruiser playstyle. They both have kits that allow them to either go all in, or just jump in and out.

You could have come with a thread asking for such a playstyle, and it wouldn't have started with people pointing out that stackable Tenacity would be broken because, unlike DotA, most CC lasts 2 seconds instead of 5. Asking people for advice is significantly less likely to get ridiculed than suggesting a change that would require rebalancing of the entire system.

Ezreal kites all day because he's Ezreal. His design is to skirt the edge of combat, going all-in or firing shots as he escapes, per the situation. If you want to be Ezreal, be Ezreal. If you want to be a bruiser that goes in and out of combat, ask which bruisers are good at that (Vi, Shyvana, Wukong, Lee Sin, Jarvan, Jayce...).

Actually, Jayce is probably exactly what you want, if Lee Sin isn't. Switching to a champion that fits the playstyle you want is a lot simpler than suggesting systemic changes that would imbalance a lot of champions for the sake of letting Darius, of all champions, ignore CC a little better than Tenacity already allows.

Woook3rDec 18, 20141 votes

Im sorry, do you like getting stun locked in a team fight? So Katerana can ult you down when there is nothing you can do ab it?

I dont think of Jayce as the type of bruiser I want. He has a projectile doesnt he? Thats why he is hit and run. He is a bruser/ranged champ isnt he? Maybe I didnt ask you to help me find one? Cause Ive played against every champ in the league and there isnt a melee champ that can deal with a team that wants to stun lock you. Except I guess Irelia. Ive never laned against her. Strange, but true.

Jayce is hit and run because he is ranged....that is my evaluation. Melee hit and run is what I would like. I.E. Hecarim if he was done the way i think he should be.

The problem with melee champions is the level of commitment that is required if you want to do some damage. High MS mitigates this, but if i have to worry about stun after stun then there's nothing I can do until my entire team commits and the enemy is distracted with several targets who can cover for me. Or so I think.

Now, heres another idea. What if you put an enchant on a melee only item that reduces the effectiveness of subsequent stuns. So its like tenacity that builds as you are stun locked for longer. It basically puts a cap on the duration of obnoxious stuns. I would b ok with that.

I dont want to be immune to stuns like irrelia. I dont really want to be op like darius. Id really like to be a hecarim that straifs the enemy causing surprise and disruption (Not necessarily deaths!) then returns to the jungle. I feel like that is entirely reasonable and obtainable without breaking the system. There just needs to be an idea.

How does the reduced returns on repetitive stuns sound to you? Its not really tenacity as it stands. And it might be easier to balance,

Dr Clueless PhDDec 17, 20141 votes

If you want a character with passive CC reduction that bad, why not play the one that already has it? Irelia isn't in these calculations for no reason, you know.

EffectFXDec 17, 20141 votes

I remember when there was a bug that let tenacity items stack flat after purchasing an upgrade for merc treads. 70% tenacity udyr was utterly hilarious.

Chaotic ReksDec 17, 20141 votes

or fucking scary...

Woook3rDec 17, 20141 votes

I dont even want to do any damage. I just want to zoom in and out of teamfights/range like a surface to air combat jet.

Woook3rDec 17, 20141 votes

You act like its only possible to make one and only one change to the game. If this makes some champs HUGELY broken, then you nerf those champs a little bit.

JustMyBassCannonDec 17, 20141 votes

You act like this is "one little change" because you do not understand the implications.

In words for tiny brain: this will affect almost every champ.

BastionKrossDec 17, 20141 votes

Olaf Hi, I don't think we've met.

Woook3rDec 17, 20141 votes

Haha Thanks, but thats an active

DroogzyDec 18, 20141 votes

You think he's wrong? -10 on your original post dictates otherwise.

No, just no to the idea, we don't need Yi's or Irelia or Riven or god knows what else just flying through the air screaming YOLO and wiping everyone out.

And the argument just nerf the champion is not a good idea, champions should be balanced in of itself, not around items.

P.S. never been fired from any job before, I've swore in front of all my bosses and they could not care less. Do the job right, and they won't care, if they do fire you over language, chances are, you were someone who they did not care much for.