I don't usually support "circle-jerks" but..

Dreadlocks·Mar 4, 2016·8 votes·687 views

was reworked because her kit lacked counter play.. yet, her reworked kit is just as toxic and also lacks counter play. I'm not saying gut Fiora, but this rework was a complete failure.

50 Comments

OverpoweredSoapMar 4, 20164 votes

I'd like her kit a lot more if her passive wasn't so god damn overloaded.

%Max Health True damage Heals her Bonus movement speed (that decays, to be fair.)

Like I get hitting a vital should be rewarded, but her Q has a very low cd if she hits someone with it, and it makes it really easy to hit vitals.

48983507DEL1Mar 4, 20163 votes

The kit is pretty toxic simply because it's overloaded, not because it lacks counterplay. Now that her Riposte has an enormous cooldown, baiting it out is a really easy way to punish her.

She's frustrating to play against for the same reason that Zed is frustrating to play against; her kit gives her way too much outplay potential.

DreadlocksMar 4, 20162 votes

I don't feel out played at all when a fiora kills me.. I just feel gimped.. Even when i think i'm winning a trade, she procs a vital and heals for a good portion of my damage. The fact that her kit is overloaded leads to a lack of counter-play. Her kit is so self rewarding, she can build bruiser/tanky and still do an insane amount of damage. I know this isn't a new concept to league, but she def feels like a top abuser of it. And she's a lot harder to punish early game. The amount of counters she has to face is quite small.

48983507DEL1Mar 4, 20161 votes

Right sorry, I meant "outplayed."

Her lack of counterplay comes from being able to build full tank while still doing a ton of damage. This isn't a problem found in her kit (aside from maybe %MaxHP True Damage), but rather in her numbers.

If she had all her base values nerfed, with her scalings buffed to compensate, then she would be required to build damage in order to do damage.

I feel like she should be similar to Riven, deadly and mobile, but squishy and high skill cap. I know we all hate Riven, but at least her numbers are clearly set to define her weaknesses and strengths, allowing her to actually be punished if she misplays.

DreadlocksMar 4, 20162 votes

Forsure, i feel thats one of Aatrox's bigggest weaknesses. All of his abilities scale with BONUS AD/AP with fairly low base values and he lacks any type of defensive steroid like many other champions of his nature. Riven Jax Fiora Irelia Renekton ETC.. Fiora could definitely be tweaked with the suggestion you have made.

Even champions like LeeSin are balanced like this.. He can do insane damage building full AD. But if he goes tanky after his warrior, chances are his Ult will be his only real damage threat.

Bodkins OddsMar 4, 20161 votes

I'd like that, but I feel that item 3748 will still be better than item 3074 just because the wave clear and active are better.

Nik NikersonMar 4, 20161 votes

I think it's a problem with balance between the Hydras, not specifically Fiora. I'm seeing Titanic more and more on champs that I'm not really sure it was intended to go on.

Weiner the PoohMar 4, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Rengo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Zs8aQXj,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-03-04T06:36:51.396+0000)

I don't feel out played at all when a fiora kills me.. I just feel gimped.. Even when i think i'm winning a trade, she procs a vital and heals for a good portion of my damage. The fact that her kit is overloaded leads to a lack of counter-play. Her kit is so self rewarding, she can build bruiser/tanky and still do an insane amount of damage. I know this isn't a new concept to league, but she def feels like a top abuser of it. And she's a lot harder to punish early game. The amount of counters she has to face is quite small.

The reason she can build that way is due to how the items are, not the champ. Shes really easy to punish early. Her only defensive ability has a 24 second cd. Any champ, any champ can bait that. Its one of the highest non ult cds in the game, so especially early(level1-9) you can bait it with whatever you want except maybe an Ekko stun or an ult. She uses it, you wait for whatever you used to come off cd and bam you have an advantage for at least the next 7 seconds. Think of it like this. At level 3 pantheon can hit her with 5 Q's to the one she can block. thats just an example several champs can do things like that.

DreadlocksMar 4, 20162 votes

Her only defensive ability has a 24 second cd. Any champ, any champ can bait that.

But that's just the problem, she is a strong duelist in most match ups without even using this. Her Q and E alone will trades, having the W in her back pocket just secures it.

Weiner the PoohMar 4, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Rengo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Zs8aQXj,comment-id=0002000000010000,timestamp=2016-03-04T06:53:21.046+0000)

But that's just the problem, she is a strong duelist in most match ups without even using this. Her Q and E alone will trades, having the W in her back pocket just secures it.

... not at all. Her E runs a high cd early, and her Q's damage is low as well. Without her W all you have to do is pile all yuor skills out and you can out tank her. With vitals, strafe to that direction, if your in top lane and the vital is facing south, and shes fighting you, kite that direction, you dont even need too kite really, just kinda walk that direction in between attacks and itll make it a lot harder for her to hit the vital. even with Q. Its range is 400 and if theres a 150 range between you guys, assuming your both melee, that is. so 150 and your model is eh what, 150-200 units? so theres that then if put distance per attack that shes trying to close that makes it even more likely her Q wont reach that vital. Plu early it stil runs like a 7-8 second cd.

DreadlocksMar 4, 20162 votes

I think u are biased j.s, it's really not as straight forward as ur text makes it. Sure u can take the preventative measures u speak of, but that doesn't garuntee anything.

Weiner the PoohMar 5, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Rengo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Zs8aQXj,comment-id=000200000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-04T13:55:08.316+0000)

I think u are biased j.s, it's really not as straight forward as ur text makes it. Sure u can take the preventative measures u speak of, but that doesn't garuntee anything.

Well, im not being biased, im telling you as someone who has played against a lot of Fiora and played a lot of Fiora. That's what you do.

DreadlocksMar 5, 20162 votes

I have too, and im saying even with these precautions trades are still easily lost.

Weiner the PoohMar 5, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Rengo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Zs8aQXj,comment-id=00020000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-05T07:09:55.588+0000)

I have too, and im saying even with these precautions trades are still easily lost.

Well yeah if you mess up and give her an opening or dont attack her whil shes vulnerable, then yeah, shes going win trades. But that's every champion in her class. Just like if you mess up or give a Riven an opening, shell become ridiculous.

DreadlocksMar 5, 20162 votes

I'm glad someone of your MMR isn't calling everything OP as fuck, actually gives me some hope to some of the people i speak to on here lol. Anyways, gl in ur games bro nice chattin.

Weiner the PoohMar 5, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Rengo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Zs8aQXj,comment-id=0002000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-05T07:50:00.291+0000)

I'm glad someone of your MMR isn't calling everything OP as fuck, actually gives me some hope to some of the people i speak to on here lol. Anyways, gl in ur games bro nice chattin.

i cant tell if this is supposed to be sarcasm or not.

DreadlocksMar 5, 20161 votes

Nah its a respect thing. More people need to understand that not everything is OP as fuck. This is just the 1 champion in the game i cannot come to terms with.

NsEternalMar 4, 20163 votes

the 3 ways to fix fiora, remove the insta crit on e ( or w) and just make it an increased atk speed. 2- remove the % to hp damage that whole aspect shouldnt be used unless its on an ult. 3rd remove the heal from getting crits and slightly increase q cd if hit but also lower it if you miss so theres a medium like instead of 2 sec make it like a solid Cd at all times like 8-9 sec then allow it to slowly cool down. she will lose a bit of lane pressure but if she scales a little higher into the late game by building DAMAGE then i'd be ok with it

Tyrone LannisterMar 5, 20163 votes

She has for lack of a better term, too much shit on her

DreadlocksMar 5, 20161 votes

Pretty much.

Yosuke ApperuMar 4, 20162 votes

Especially when her "random" passive always appears in a favorable position to her...

DreadlocksMar 4, 20161 votes

They merely gave her an overloaded kit just to fit her "im the grand duelist" theme.. Seriously go on wikia and read carefully what all her spells do its pretty absurd.. I'm more disappointed that THIS was the result of a reworked champion.

Best Valor NAMar 4, 20161 votes

Definitely not 'always' in a favorable position. It has 4 possible places. 2 of which you basically have to go on the other side of the laner

Yosuke ApperuMar 4, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Valor NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Zs8aQXj,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2016-03-04T13:58:38.628+0000)

Definitely not 'always' in a favorable position. It has 4 possible places. 2 of which you basically have to go on the other side of the laner

Im saying there are times where it has spawned repeatedly in the same side again and again

Best Valor NAMar 4, 20161 votes

That's quite different than always.

Bodkins OddsMar 4, 20161 votes

They fixed that a couple of patches ago. It always alternates between bottom-left/top-right and top-left/bottom-right now. If she's getting it into a favourable side often, then one of you is walking out of range to reset it.

Sneakyy XDMar 4, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Rengo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Zs8aQXj,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-03-04T05:56:14.658+0000)

was reworked because her kit lacked counter play.. yet, her reworked kit is just as toxic and also lacks counter play. I'm not saying gut Fiora, but this rework was a complete failure.

Fiora was reworked because her design was shit. Her design is now awesome, except for the fact that she deals true damage based off of a percentage of her target's maximum HP.

DreadlocksMar 4, 20162 votes

I think the concept that was created for her was very unique and i like it, but her numbers are just simply bullshit to me.

Nik NikersonMar 4, 20162 votes

I'm not saying she doesn't have problems, but playing her is much more fun now. They at least got that part right. Playing against her though.....

QuephaMar 4, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nik Nikerson,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Zs8aQXj,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2016-03-04T23:50:58.802+0000)

I'm not saying she doesn't have problems, but playing her is much more fun now. They at least got that part right. Playing against her though.....

Even playing against her is more fun than it used to be. Her old kit really was awful.

When old Fiora was strong (usually after riot buffed her free AD on riposte) then she just jumped on you and stat checked you to death, when she was weak she did the same thing and you stat checked her to death, that was all she could do.

DreadlocksMar 4, 20162 votes

Man idk what elo you are playing vs fiora's but she is NOT fun by any means to play vs EVER.

QuephaMar 4, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Rengo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Zs8aQXj,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2016-03-04T23:57:14.843+0000)

Man idk what elo you are playing vs fiora's but she is NOT fun by any means to play vs EVER.

And you must have never actually played against old Fiora if you think that was better.

DreadlocksMar 5, 20162 votes

I played in season 4, so yeah i have played vs old fiora.. Frustrating yes.. but much easier to fight and def a lot LESS frustrating.

EcchiOtakuTMMar 4, 20161 votes

I really don't see a problem with fiora think she's just the next champ some are venting on for no reason....

DreadlocksMar 4, 20162 votes

Oh I have plenty of reasons ...

DesideriumMar 4, 20161 votes

You can't argue that she was balanced before. She wasn't. Her ult was the most frustrating, enraging thing to play against, on par with the current state of Master Yi (which also needs to fucking be fixed by the way)

DreadlocksMar 4, 20162 votes

I'm saying they didn't really fix the counterplay part she was lacking.

QuephaMar 4, 20161 votes

Fiora's new kit has a ton of counterplay.

DreadlocksMar 4, 20161 votes

Teach me Senpai.

QuephaMar 4, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Rengo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Zs8aQXj,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2016-03-04T22:19:40.267+0000)

Teach me Senpai.

Disengage when she ults Don't fire cc at her until she Ripostes and when in the Riposte animation don't waste abilities on her Shove your vitals into walls to keep her from hitting them.

DreadlocksMar 4, 20162 votes

Should i run the 40% summoner CDs so i can flash more often away from her ult? Cause the second she procs 1 vital, i'm slowed and she gets a shit ton of MS.

QuephaMar 4, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Rengo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Zs8aQXj,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-04T22:51:50.178+0000)

Should i run the 40% summoner CDs so i can flash more often away from her ult? Cause the second she procs 1 vital, i'm slowed and she gets a shit ton of MS.

I didn't say she was balanced. I said she has counterplay.

DreadlocksMar 4, 20162 votes

They kind of go hand in hand loool.

QuephaMar 4, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Rengo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Zs8aQXj,comment-id=000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-04T23:34:10.573+0000)

They kind of go hand in hand loool.

No, they don't. Warwick has zero counterplay but he's more or less balanced.

DreadlocksMar 4, 20162 votes

Warwick has zero counterplay

item 3140

QuephaMar 4, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Rengo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Zs8aQXj,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-04T23:55:10.858+0000)

That's not counterplay.

DreadlocksMar 5, 20162 votes

Actually it is, so is kiting, and grievous wounds..

QuephaMar 5, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Rengo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Zs8aQXj,comment-id=0006000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-05T00:08:00.385+0000)

Actually it is, so is kiting, and grievous wounds..

Kiting is counterplay, because you are countering a champion due to actions and decisions you are making within the moment using tools that most champions have.

Grievous wounds and QSS are not counterplay because they are items that you buy before hand as part of a strategy to counter an opponent ahead of time.

They counter champions and abilities, but they are not counterPLAY.

DreadlocksMar 5, 20162 votes

They counter champions and abilities

Checkmate.

QuephaMar 5, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Rengo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5Zs8aQXj,comment-id=000600000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-05T00:32:52.560+0000)

Checkmate.

how?