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A Change To Reduce The Effectiveness Of Passive Zed Play

OyddAWqJ5r·Jan 9, 2015·16 votes·3,101 views

The biggest problem when laning against a Zed is the fact that he has a dash that he absolutely has no need for in terms of harass and can therefore keep it off cooldown for escape purposes at all times -- doing otherwise is considered a mistake on the Zed's part. But all the while he can safely farm from a distance with his Q as well, giving him an absurdly large amount of safety in lane. As such, the best way to nerf Zed would be to buff his W in a way that makes him need to use it more often than just for the all-in finish and to nerf his ability to constantly cs with Q.

I personally think the way to do this is to make his energy cost on his early ranks of Q wayyyyy higher and then have his W restore the entire cost for the "If a target is struck twice by a mimicked ability" bonus.

My Suggestion:

Q - Razor Shuriken

COST: ~~75/70/65/60/55 Energy~~ => 110/95/80/65/50 Energy

W - Living Shadow

I Actually Have To Use My Shadow Now?: If a target is struck twice by a mimicked ability, Zed restores ~~20/25/30/35/40 energy~~ => 50% of the mimicked ability's cost. 100% if it hits a champion.

This is a buff to aggressive Zeds because not only does a double Q not cost energy but landing both E's also refunds the cost as well. But it is definitely a nerf to passive, W hoarding Zeds and limits their ability to not interact with their opponents. Doesn't affect the lategame at all really or buffs it -- which is totally acceptable given how laning won't be as easy.

If this is too much of a nerf then with W hoarding no longer an issue, reducing its cooldown to be 14 seconds at all levels (current level 5 cooldown) would be an acceptable buff.

But if this doesn't solve the problem then removing the ability to proc his passive on minions as well and instead only have it proc on monsters and champions is another way to go about it.

And ofcourse the Q cost numbers can always be adjusted to better suit what I'm aiming for.

47 Comments

LlaniteJan 10, 20154 votes

The only needed nerf is to stop his passive and energy regen to proc off minions, and cut back the ridiculous 25% AD to 15%.

OyddAWqJ5rJan 10, 20153 votes

Energy regen proccing off minions means he is using his shadow offensively, which is a good thing for Zed's opponents. 18 seconds of no dash.

LankPantsJan 10, 20151 votes

No energy regen off champs means he's using shadow offensively, Energy regen off minions means he's farming.

OyddAWqJ5rJan 10, 20152 votes

Energy regen proccing off minions means he is ~~using his shadow offensively~~ not using his shadow defensively.

There we go, fixed it. Either way the fact still remains that he used his shadow to farm and is now 67.3% more gankable for the next ~18 seconds. I'm 100% fine with him being rewarded for not using his shadow defensively.

BakedLotionJan 10, 20154 votes

He doesn't need compensation buffs. You can just raise the energy cost of his q and take away the shadow passive regenerating energy. There. He's less annoying.

OyddAWqJ5rJan 10, 20154 votes

A totally viable solution. I just think it's a good idea to keep the restoration effect so he isn't punished for using his shadow offensively. Basically he doesn't need a nerf to his aggressive play patterns but his passive play patterns are what we want to hit. Making him unable to gain energy from W only serves to make him not want to use it offensively even more and save it as an escape (except for those guaranteed all in kills as usual).

Ofcourse the solution could always be just a simple nerf to Q costs as you say.

TheKingDodoJan 10, 20154 votes

Zed Q nerf: remove passthrough. (shuriken now stops on impact) do nothing to buff the damage. lower CD by 1 second. Have fun harassing through that thick minion wave! oh wait! your only aoe is your super low cooldown E? Bummer...

OyddAWqJ5rJan 10, 20154 votes

Secondary (or "Pass-Through) Damage: 45/69/93/117/141 (+ 60% bonus AD)

Not really all that big of a deal lol. His poking isn't much of an issue. It's his safety and immunity to ganks.

So if Q didn't pass through minions, why would he risk going so far into your side to hit you with a single Q when he could just safely farm a perfect ~15 minions and get the same amount of gold?

TheKingDodoJan 10, 20151 votes

safety involves poking. if he can't use his Q for offence, he can either be a lane bitch (does nothing but farm... Nasus woof woof), or use his W for pokes. if Q doesn't pass through, then most likely the cloned Q would be blocked too. so zed will have to get closer to the wave, so his shadow would have to be behind the ranged creeps to land his Qs, or rely on E to harass which in turn pushes the lane, forcing zed to go near enemy tower and use his shadows, or back off and lose a few creeps. zed is far from immune to ganks. if he's caught by surprise pass the pillars (those torches near river) to the enemy's side, he'll have to flash or die... the trouble is, zeds right now can easily harass from the middle of the lane to enemy tower. and they only go near enemy tower if their opponent is low enough to get instagibbed if deathmarked forcing a 1v1 with the jungler if they show up.

OyddAWqJ5rJan 10, 20153 votes

zed is far from immune to ganks. if he's caught by surprise pass the pillars (those torches near river) to the enemy's side, he'll have to flash or die...

That's a pretty blatant lie. At least, in Diamond and above it is that's for sure. Zed's safety net is pretty damn large and they will only extend into the range of a gank when they know there's just about 0 chance they'd die to one. Zed's have damn near 100% control of the lane minions, being able to execute them faster or slower at whim and therefore balancing it out wherever they see fit. It's not hard to do at all. So if Zed isn't feeling comfortable with moving up or is getting camped for who knows what reason he can sit back, farm with Q without missing a single CS and keeping the wave in the middle or pushed up to his side all while keeping his W off cooldown in the off chance that he actually does get ganked way back there.

Trust me, if you ever play Zed the only time you die to a gank is when you've already used your shadow and can't get out because of it. Because if you have your shadow you can just shadow towards tower but walk the opposite side of river away from the gank. It's pretty braindead simple to avoid ganks. Blowing flash is seldom ever necessary.

From the looks of your post it seems you are assuming Zed is meleeing the minions and tossing shuriken at you. That just means he knows full well he controls the lane and that even if the jungler ganked it wouldn't matter. Zed has absolutely 0 need to harass at all. He scales harder than 90% of his lane opponents so a stalled lane works out perfect for him. There's no need to over extend to land some harass. And if you want to harass a Zed that is playing passively like this? Well now you're gank susceptible. There's no way around it, Zed is just too safe. You can't "force Zed" to do anything as his lane opponent. "Force" him to stay back and farm every single minion perfectly with his Q and passive sure, but that's about it.

So if Q didn't pass through minions, why would he risk going so far into your side to hit you with a single Q when he could just safely farm a perfect ~15 minions and get the same amount of gold?

If a Zed dies in lane it isn't enemy skill or a successful gank. It's the Zed player making a mistake.

SammystormJan 10, 20154 votes

Interesting way to look at the problem and I think you are 100% right. Incentivizing aggressive play and discouraging defensive play seems to be the right way to fix zed.

CindikleJan 10, 20153 votes

100%? Way too much.

If anything the cost of the shadow needs to go up. And reduce the refund at earlier ranks.

OyddAWqJ5rJan 10, 20152 votes

100% for one ability cast (so refunds the 110 cost) once every 18 seconds but he has to use his shadow offensively enough to where he can hit both shuriken on the enemy champion to do so. It also doesn't refund the cost of W itself as well.

Trust me, it's definitely not overpowered. I thought about not even including the extra 50 for champs but then I realized the above facts.

CindikleJan 10, 20151 votes

I think i see what you mean overall. You're saying if he has to use Q to farm he's going to run out of energy without W. Otherwise I don't see much of a change as far as W's interaction goes and would actually buff his W if he's ulting a target. As energy would become a non-existent resource overall.

I think that wont be enough to really change things.

Make Q's damage based off total AD instead of bonus and adjust as needed. This makes his Q doesn't become such a beast in damage so early on. A WEQ isn't that hard to land. But landing both Q's ends up making this some devastating damage. Turning it into 50/70/90/110/130(+60/70/80/90/100% total AD) would limit his Q's power quite a bit in the early game till he gets it ranked up. The AD scaling is to make sure he doesn't just start ranking E first for the same overall effect.

Another though is to remove the cost to use his W. But add a cost when he either swaps with it or uses other abilities. This makes all-inning a little riskier if he can't land his double hits. As he'll burn his energy faster. This shouldn't hurt his ult too much as he can use W to help setup double hits.

OyddAWqJ5rJan 10, 20152 votes

You're saying if he has to use Q to farm he's going to run out of energy without W.

Exactly

Otherwise I don't see much of a change as far as W's interaction goes and would actually buff his W if he's ulting a target. As energy would become a non-existent resource overall.

When do you ever see a Zed run out of energy mid ult? lol. If he was out of energy before-hand then he will be out of energy still during it. If he had energy before he ulted then he will press Q and E like usual. He'll get energy back if he did some kind of point blank ult so his shadow was next to him and landed both skills mimicked on the enemy then he'd be refunded for those 2 skills but like... that doesn't really do anything. It's not like he can do anything with all that energy after that anyways.

But besides the post-6 interactions, this will definitely hurt his pre-6 and actually make energy an existent resource for him.

Make Q's damage based off total AD instead of bonus and adjust as needed. This makes his Q doesn't become such a beast in damage so early on. A WEQ isn't that hard to land. But landing both Q's ends up making this some devastating damage. Turning it into 50/70/90/110/130(+60/70/80/90/100% total AD) would limit his Q's power quite a bit in the early game till he gets it ranked up. The AD scaling is to make sure he doesn't just start ranking E first for the same overall effect.

We want him to use his shadow to try to land a double Q. All of what you stated only serves to strengthen the reasoning behind not engaging at all with W and just sitting back. And while a straight nerf like this will definitely take him out of the meta it'd be much better (and less lazy) to instead keep his viability and damage while hitting him elsewhere. Basically, number nerfs are a no-no, his damage is really well balanced as it is.

Another though is to remove the cost to use his W. But add a cost when he either swaps with it or uses other abilities. This makes all-inning a little riskier if he can't land his double hits. As he'll burn his energy faster. This shouldn't hurt his ult too much as he can use W to help setup double hits.

I thought about suggesting a only costs energy on recast thing but decided not to mention it because it gives him more reason to not WW, which is another thing we are totally fine with him doing. We want him to be offensive with his shadow in all ways.

The purpose of this topic is "To Reduce The Effectiveness Of Passive Zed Play", his active and aggressive play isn't something that needs to be toned down whatsoever.

AHeroNamedHawkeJan 10, 20153 votes

I like it

Epilogue of LifeJan 10, 20152 votes

Maybe if his W gives him more kill potential? Back in the days when his W wasn't as slow as my grandparents, people used it for poking all the time.

OyddAWqJ5rJan 10, 20152 votes

It's still really easy to hit. I can do it near 100% of the time no problem. But Zed players have become smarter and know that doing so means that their dash will be on cd for 18 seconds which is 18 seconds where it's unsafe to farm minions with basic attacks and are then forced to let CS slide. To prevent this you take advantage of how he doesn't need to poke at all since he can easily get 100% of the cs safely without having to touch his W key. So giving W more damage or "kill potential" wouldn't do anything but make his all-in increasingly possible at higher health amounts, which he already has plenty of even pre-6.

Epilogue of LifeJan 10, 20152 votes

Or just make it so mimiced Q doesn't have reduced dmg...Zeds be spamming W aggressively all day, and it rewards hitting a narrow skillshot, which takes skill. You've gotta understand that passive Zeds are digging their own graves, cuz Zed doesn't really scale well with his ult dmg being almost nonexistent should you choose to build ONE ITEM to counter him.

OyddAWqJ5rJan 10, 20153 votes

Mimicked Q doesn't have reduced damage. Landing 2 or more Q's in a single cast makes it deal reduced damage -- and I doubt you want 2 of those things dealing the first's massive damage... or 3.

Epilogue of LifeJan 10, 20152 votes

Well that would encourage setting up ALL shadows offensively for tons of damage which makes Zed less safe?

OyddAWqJ5rJan 10, 20151 votes

That's the question isn't it? Lol. With his kit there's really no way around it other than forcing him to have to use it in order to do anything at all. Which is what I was going for with this change. Ofcourse they can still play passive even with this change but it puts his Q on a pseudo-10 second cooldown which hurts cs'ing which hurts his lategame. So there's that I guess lol. I'm sure Rioters are trying to solve this puzzle as well.

Epilogue of LifeJan 10, 20151 votes

I think he should get rewarded for using W offensively, not punished for using it passively, because he's already so trash after 20 mins...name one other champion that gets so completely shut down by an item active...

OyddAWqJ5rJan 10, 20152 votes

Warwick item 3140 Malzahar DrMundo item 3165 Talon item 3157 item 3364 item 2043 item 3026 Zac item 3713 Fizz item 3102 Akali Volibear Fiora item 3075 Aatrox Skarner

totally joking

But seriously, this laning safety has got to go. He's already proven himself to be good enough after 20 minutes despite the existence of that item. The pros aren't just buying QSS and "completely shutting down" Zed which says something about that strat. QSS isn't the end all for Zed -- anyone who plays Zed frequently knows this. It simply means you can't select that target for ult damage purposes but you can probably still kill him with QE+AA damage alone since he just spent 1250 gold on magic resist so you could shred through him like paper. Zed's biggest "I can't kill this guy" items are actually Zhonyas and GA -- QSS is something you should get after GA if you still really need it.

Edit: Oh yeah, so basically I'm saying his lategame is fine and doesn't need much consideration taken into account when looking to nerf his early game safety -- which only indirectly affects his post-laning phase nearly guaranteed lead.

Epilogue of LifeJan 10, 20151 votes

Something that can remove half your late game damage...you know, champions like WW can still build pretty tanky and run around soaking dmg, while vision ward doesn't take away a champions dmg in duels. Zed's a glass cannon, and if you can remove 1/2~1/3 of his dmg without any team coordination and without having to buy an item that's completely defense-oriented on ADC/mage...it's pretty cancerous for the Zed player as well.

OyddAWqJ5rJan 11, 20151 votes

Zed has more than enough damage without his ult lol. I'm pretty sure a basic unfed Zed can 100-0 an ADC before the mark even goes off.

SammystormJan 10, 20151 votes

you are looking at it wrong. It lowers zed's damage out put for sure. It also however lowers the damage out put of the person who bought it. Zed also does not need his r to kill high value targets.

Epilogue of LifeJan 10, 20151 votes

Lol Zhonya 120 AP, Scimitar 80 AD...it doesn't hurt your damage that much. Also, Zed doesn't need his R when the high value target doesn't kite him and has no peel...

SammystormJan 11, 20152 votes

buying zhonya's or qss does not mean you will survive. Mercurial scimitar is a particularly bad item and makes ad have a much lower damage out. Zhonya's is already bought almost every game and it doesn't counter zed. It just delays how long it takes him to kill you.

Tik115Jan 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Well that would encourage setting up ALL shadows offensively for tons of damage which makes Zed less safe?

I think that's the point, right now if something goes wrong he just W's out or if he ulted presses R again and he's safe,his "only escape" will be back in 20 seconds so it pretty much can't be punished before he's back to being safe, by forcing him to use his shadows offensivly it gives him the risk he SHOULD HAVE being an Assassin (name another assassin that can match Zeds burst, farming ease and safety to his level)

Epilogue of LifeJan 10, 20151 votes

Zed actually has the lowest kill potential lategame IMO, because its so easy to itemize against him. However, he is very slippery, and he can force CDs, and when DON'T build to counter him he gets scary, and for some reason people can't take that at all.

Tik115Jan 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Zed actually has the lowest kill potential late-game IMO, because its so easy to itemize against him. However, he is very slippery, and he can force CDs, and when DON'T build to counter him he gets scary, and for some reason people can't take that at all.

except if you try to itemize against Zed then you lose any and all pushing power again him, why? because odds are your champion has mana and with the mana nerfs means they HAVE to rush a Morellos or a tear or get out-pushed, so if you try to build against Zed your not gonna have the mana to match his wave clear meaning ether he can roam or he can force you to lose CS so he gets ahead of you and you see how this vicious circle is going right?

if there was an item that gave mana champions Armour + mana and evolved into an AP item that fits their playstyle then sure you can argue that point but as it stands we only have Armour and no mana that evolves into a good AP item or Mana but no Armour, its a catch-22 for the mana user

Epilogue of LifeJan 10, 20151 votes

Get your jungle to give you blue, problem solved.

Tik115Jan 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Get your jungle to give you blue, problem solved.

Except at the start the jungler is gonna take the first blue and blue buff got nerfed as it doesn't last as long, by the time the second blue is up Zed will be 6 and you'll be behind (due to your mana running out to match his free waveclear or an all in) to the point where the risk of giving the mid blue is too great

Epilogue of LifeJan 11, 2015

Lol he's supposed to be ahead pre-6. He's supposed to be able to build an early edge, because he honestly can't outscale someone like Orianna or Syndra in a teamfight. He has dmg, yes, but he provides very little in terms of utility for the team.

Tik115Jan 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Lol he's supposed to be ahead pre-6. He's supposed to be able to build an early edge, because he honestly can't outscale someone like Orianna or Syndra in a teamfight. He has dmg, yes, but he provides very little in terms of utility for the team.

Having the early game edge is one thing but being impossible to shut down with ANY champion that uses mana is called too strong

If there was a guaranteed way of shutting down a Zed like you can do with pretty much every other champion Then I'd accept his early game edge but if you look there is literally no way to shut him down

Push him to tower? his passive and stacking Shadow + himself damage lets him last hit with ease

Harass him? He can W>E a wave safely plus your probability a mana champion anyway and doing so will end up with you out of mana and him being able to give the same 10 times over because Energy regen didn't get nerfed for whatever reason

Last hit under turret? unlike Azir his shadows don't go away quicker under turret so he can throw a shadow in and Q you forcing you to miss CS with no setbacks (Remember, Azir pretty much wastes his soldier and mana for a free hit where as Zed does so with less long term costs) AND that is basically best case for zed because "Oh hey I can ether freely poke you OR I can roam and get the other lanes fed and you can't stop me!"

Camp as the jungler? Push him to tower scenario

2 v 1 him? Push him to tower scenerio

An early edge is one thing but even early game champions have methods to be shut down, Zed is apparently an exception to this.

If you know some guaranteed way to shut down Zed like how every other champion can be (minus perhaps lee) then pray tell because

Also in regards to little utility it doesn't matter if he can ult a squishy and instantly knock them out of the fight THEN follow up the teamfight with high damage due to his other skills + passive

Epilogue of LifeJan 12, 20151 votes

If he W-E a wave pre-6, then he has no escape or engage. If you camp him, he will be forced to stay under tower and be unable to get anything beyond CS, and assassins need more than kills to snowball. There is no need to shut down an assassin--if you deny him kills, he's already been shut down.

FakinawayJan 10, 20151 votes

item 3070

stack them for me

OyddAWqJ5rJan 10, 20154 votes

item 3042 item 3040

Done

SmokingPuffinJan 10, 20151 votes

I personally think the way to do this is to make his energy cost on his early ranks of Q wayyyyy higher and then have his W restore the entire cost for the "If a target is struck twice by a mimicked ability" bonus.

This doesn't resolve my personal gripe about Zed (R is idiot proof, no way to die in his alleged "all-in") but this is an interesting way to push Zed towards using his shadow more.

I'm pretty worried about that 100% refund in teamfight scenarios though. He will surely have tons of energy that way.

I propose that it's better to nerf ability damage, then buff the multi-hit ability damage bonus. This will achieve the same goal of pushing offensive shadow use, while toning down the power of his dive a bit.

OyddAWqJ5rJan 10, 20153 votes

I'm not too worried about teamfight viability. It means he will get 1 free Q cast and 1-2 free E casts whenever his shadow is up (every 10 seconds or so). Outside of lane Zed has always been sort of a resource-less champion.

I propose that it's better to nerf ability damage, then buff the multi-hit ability damage bonus. This will achieve the same goal of pushing offensive shadow use, while toning down the power of his dive a bit.

Mmm doesn't solve any laning issues though which are really the only issues with Zed. The all-in at level 6 is "alleged" depending on who his opponent is. Almost all mid laners have ways to outplay Zed's ult at level 6. But while this is a totally viable way to achieve what I'm trying to achieve it comes with the completely unrelated "toning down the power of his dive a bit" tidbit that really isn't necessary.

JunkοJan 10, 20151 votes

Just delete his W passive, problem solved

OyddAWqJ5rJan 10, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5U3Pkz64,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-10T02:42:44.000+0000) I thought about suggesting a only costs energy on recast thing but decided not to mention it because it gives him more reason to not WW, which is another thing we are totally fine with him doing. We want him to be offensive with his shadow in all ways.

The purpose of this topic is "To Reduce The Effectiveness Of Passive Zed Play", his active and aggressive play isn't something that needs to be toned down whatsoever.

Tik115Jan 12, 20151 votes

See here's the thing though

If you push any other assassin under turret they lose CS and fall behind and become less relevant

If you push a Zed under turret they still easily CS and stay even, All Zed need's to do is stay even and get his (Stupidly) early power spikes to stay relevant

That's the difference between Zed and every other assassin, they actually fall behind CSing under turret and spike later so they effectively get shut down, Zed on the other hand only regrets not being able to roam and can delete anyone at half health after 1337 gold (Comparatively most assassins have to build a full item and be relatively even to do that)

Also Camping him will cause 2 things, 1. Zed will hold off on his W and just freeze the lane wasting the junglers time 2. if the mid laner tries to force Zed under turret they'll run out of mana before Zed runs out of energy (As in never or at the most for 6 seconds) which means he can push the wave out enough to where your occasional spell and pitiful AA won't be enough to push the wave back fast enough and just roam.

as I said, an Early edge is one thing but what Zed has is not an early edge, it is outright dominance of a lane (Outside of maybe Azir but even Mr "Anti-Mobility Creep" can't shut down a Zed or at least not for very long)

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