New Thornmail is the biggest Eff You to melee champions in a LONG LONG time

HateDaddy··6 votes·1,063 views

Before you people go on your rants about how lifesteal is "out of control," I want you to think long and hard about how absurdly stupid that statement actually is. Lifesteal as a stat is readily available in several forms, sure, but nobody is really buying it more frequently now than they ever have. ADC's that go lifesteal lose crit and damage in exchange. Furthermore, and this is important that you read this so you understand how dumb this idea of thornmail giving grevious wounds is, lifesteal has never been good against high armor targets. In fact, armor stacking is one of the biggest counteracting mechanics there is to lifesteal.

Why am I upset about this then? It's simple. This is a bigger fuck you to melee champions than it is your loyally hated ADCs. You see, because if a target is building thornmail, they were likely going to be stacking armor anywhere, thereby making them a target that couldn't have been draintanked via lifesteal anyway. This hurts bruisers. This hurts melee light fighters. This hurts anything melee that uses autoattacks at any point. Because melees can only reliably fight front lines and many of the melee champions with innate healing mechanics have %based healing for that function specifically, so they can survive by draining off of tanks and squishies alike. This completely and utterly destroys that.

This is the same board that constantly cries in the favor of Darius Illaoi Aatrox Trundle. If this change goes through, you can literally say goodbye to them because this brand of thornmail completely and totally invalidates their existences entirely. And bruisers already had an iffy place in the meta to begin with. But it's not just those champions, here's a list of melee champions who get completely fucked by this item:

Aatrox Akali Darius DrMundo Fiora Hecarim Illaoi Maokai Olaf Renekton TrundleTryndamere XinZhao

All of these champions depend heavily on the ability to heal in the middle of teams through combat and a big portion of their initial focus begins on tanks or other bruisers. This item will literally invalidate that because if they so much as touch them, they lose their ability to heal. I cannot stress enough how much of a massive fuck you this is to melee champions. Ranged champions don't care about this. Ranged champions aren't even draintanking tanks. Are they healing off on neutral objectives or other low armor targets? Yes, it's almost as if that's exactly what lifesteal is intended for in the first place.

The most common ADC builds don't even include that many LS items in the first place, here you can see for yourselves:

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Caitlyn http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Varus http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Xayah http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Jhin http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Ashe http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Corki http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Draven http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Graves http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Jinx http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Kalista http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/KogMaw http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Lucian http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/MissFortune http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Quinn http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Tristana http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Twitch http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Vayne

Before you go off about how this isn't exactly the most accurately collected data, let me make you know that I'm well aware of that. However, this is still a roughly accurate estimate of what is currently being built. In only 3 cases do you have an ADC building more than 1 LS item, and thats Draven, Kalista - which this is largely their thing, lifestealing adcs - and Jinx; and in Jinx's case, its a scimtar which is last item so her build doesn't even focus largely on it. And frankly, I think that's a bad item on Jinx in most cases. Lifesteal is a stat designed for war of attrition, and in the cases where it's being used on side objectives to heal back up, it's doing exactly what it's intended to do. The claim that ADC's are taking lifesteal and making it "out of control" is not only unsubstantiated and not backed by data or even seen as a good stat to stack more than once in the eyes of anyone with half a brain, it's misinformed because armor tanks or anything with 2+ armor items will significantly reduce the effectiveness of lifesteal against them.

Why do I bring this up? IT's because people on this board have whined and complained forever about lifesteal and it's never truly been a problem. One of the "hottest ideas" on here was to make thornmail provide grevious wounds because you people think armor stacking somehow isn't good against lifesteal when it is. I don't think this was spurned by riot because of this board but maybe it was. And either way, there's still massive support for this concept and it's a terrible idea that will hurt the champions who it's supposed to help.

I'm not predicting the apocalypse here either. The item might be total garbage due to other stats or issues with it. But if it ever becomes good, it's going to ruin melee champions who rely on healing to stay in fights. Grevious wounds in general is a shitty mechanic but I realize that it is necessary. Morellos does it right. In fact, it's the only item in the game that does it right. But it shits on the existence of so many champions and it's something we need significantly less of, not significantly more of.

I realize warlords is popular and I think warlords is a shitty design, too. But it's also being deleted, so this makes thornmail feel even more irrational in its new concept. So I beg of you, please see reason here.

24 Comments

Critmaster Garen8 votes

lifesteal combined with the defensive stats marksmen items provide now, combined with support protection like item 3107 item 3109 item 3190 item 3504 on marksmen is pretty broken. they dont make much of a sacrifice when it comes to anything anymore.

warlords also contributes to the problem.

but the real actual problem is in the fundamental relationship between health sustain and grievous wounds that has existed since the early days of this game.

there was never really not a phase when either certain sustain champions were too strong, or grievous wounds made them feel like shit to play.

until they fix this issue, i dont think there is a better option than giving fighters and tanks a defensive grievous wounds item to be able to melee marksmen again, without being effectivly a sack of health they can just lifesteal off.

when it comes to fighters vs. tanks with grievous wounds, they just need to get the balance right for now. i dont think tanks will be able to outtrade fighters in the long run desipe grievous wounds on thornmail.

HateDaddy3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5KM9GY3Z,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-06-29T06:41:36.034+0000)

lifesteal combined with the defensive stats marksmen items provide now, combined with support protection like item 3107 item 3109 item 3190 on marksmen is pretty broken.

warlords also contributes to the problem.

but the real problem is in the fundamental relationship between health sustain and grievous wounds that has existed since the early days of this game.

there was never really not a phase when either certain sustain champions were too strong, or grievous wounds made them feel like shit to play.

until they fix this issue, i dont think there is a better option than giving fighters and tanks a defensive grievous wounds item to be able to melee marksmen again, without being effectivly a sack of health they can just lifesteal off.

when it comes to fighters vs. tanks with grievous wounds, they just need to get the balance right for now. i dont think tanks will be able to outtrade fighters in the long run desipe grievous wounds on thornmail.

or they can just make shield stacking less effective, and warlords is getting removed.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

or they can just make shield stacking less effective, and warlords is getting removed.

the way i see, it as a fighter or tank you already have to deal with getting spammed by grievous wounds anyways.

item 3165 is built on almost every ap scaling champion, and item 3123 is 800 gold without any condition or internal cooldown on the passive.

the new thornmail isnt just an item thats going to be picked up by tanks. it will also allow fighters to throw grievous wounds back at the guy whos pelting him with gw inflicting auto attacks.

its basically fighting fire with fire. which is kindof dumb, but the only thing that will work until they rework the mechanic as a whole.

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5KM9GY3Z,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-29T06:53:08.976+0000)

the way i see, it as a fighter or tank you already have to deal with getting spammed by grievous wounds anyways.

item 3165 is built on almost every ap scaling champion, and item 3123 is 800 gold without any condition or internal cooldown on the passive.

the new thornmail isnt just an item thats going to be picked up by tanks. it will also allow fighters to throw grievous wounds back at the guy whos pelting him with gw inflicting auto attacks.

its basically fighting fire with fire. which is kindof dumb, but the only thing that will work until they rework the mechanic as a whole.

You'll definitely still take that reduction in healing from those items, but that's under the circumstances that they're build. I think EC/Mortal Reminder are bad for the same reason thornmail would be.

This is just adding another eff you to fighters up front. I do like it vs ADCs and I don't deny that it does help some but the reality is, I believe this hurts fighters far more than it helps them.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

You'll definitely still take that reduction in healing from those items, but that's under the circumstances that they're build. I think EC/Mortal Reminder are bad for the same reason thornmail would be.

This is just adding another eff you to fighters up front. I do like it vs ADCs and I don't deny that it does help some but the reality is, I believe this hurts fighters far more than it helps them.

How many drain melees are there who are popular though? You have warwick, irelia, darius, lee sin just off the top of head. Amongst them, only warwick and darius actually have an emphasis on healing.... and only warwick has a heavy emphasis on draining.

HateDaddy1 votes

Nasus, illaoi, Aatrox, Akali (to an extent), Maokai, Fiora, Hecarim

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

Nasus, illaoi, Aatrox, Akali (to an extent), Maokai, Fiora, Hecarim

... Of those only hecarim and akali are popular right now. And none of them are based on healing except illaoi and aatrox; power budget isnt expended for the others.

The JigSAW1 votes

If I were a melee fighter, I'd be celebrating right now. 25 armor drop and the reflect damage is 10% bonus armor from 25% and the 15% incoming damage is removed entirely. So if I had 400 bonus armor your basic attack would do 40 plus the 25 flat - 65 damage with a second of GW compared to currently, where it would do 100+15% of incoming damage. The people who suffer most from this change are tanks, who now have far less ability to defend themselves against auto-attacks.

hhaavviikk1 votes

{quoted}

or they can just make shield stacking less effective, and warlords is getting removed.

that would still leave the problem of lifesteal

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

that would still leave the problem of lifesteal

Why is lifesteal a problem?

waiting for WoW2 votes

Maybe because relying on lifesteal to drain tank has always been a stupid idea?

AD and AP can inflict grievous wounds and thank god people building full tank can now to.

The JigSAW2 votes

The thornmail changes are complete garbage except the grievous wounds because frankly if you punch a thorn-covered armor plate it makes sense to be hurt.

So 75 armor from 100, add 250 health, and now it does a whopping 10% of bonus armor plus 25 flat damage to anybody who hits you along with a second of GW. Congratulations, now Yi and Yasuo can wallop everybody because the one item that was effective based on their damage is now rendered useless. Then again knowing this company that was the plan all along.

Best thing to do? Return thornmail to what it was years ago: 100 armor and 30% of incoming basic attack damage reflected back as magic damage.

Titanium702 votes

You're mixing things up.

New thormail, while good, wont do as much as state here.

It's really strong in 1V1 - Laning! But in TFs it does nothing against the Champions you listed and has the sole purpose of making the Tank not the HP-Battery for the enemy ADC!

In a TF, if you have heals... how about NOT AA-ING THE FREAKING THORMAIL EVERY TWO SECONDS! They have NO WAY to apply it on you by them selfes! You have to apply it! Just do what you should do ANYWAY dive through to their carrys!

Mordepool2 votes

Maybe they need to make grievous wounds stackable to a point. 1 stack heal for 90% of a normal heal 2 stacks 80% etc

Capping at 50% make how stacking works vary for abilities and AA

Just my 2¢

Big Lincoln1 votes

This is the same board that constantly cries in the favor of Darius Illaoi Aatrox Trundle .

nah that's just me lol, nobody here likes illaoi

i agree though, wholeheartedly, people are so rabidly anti-adc right now that they aren't realizing how much worse this will be for the melees who HAVE to hit the front line tanks. i think thornmail is just a bad design in general, but this will actually probably put us in a tank meta just because any and all sustain based bruisers will vanish

p.s dad i made a nasus thread if u want to gimme ur thoughts, would like to hear from more experienced nasus players

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5KM9GY3Z,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-06-29T06:48:32.153+0000)

nah that's just me lol, nobody here likes illaoi

i agree though, wholeheartedly, people are so rabidly anti-adc right now that they aren't realizing how much worse this will be for the melees who HAVE to hit the front line tanks. i think thornmail is just a bad design in general, but this will actually probably put us in a tank meta just because any and all sustain based bruisers will vanish

p.s dad i made a nasus thread if u want to gimme ur thoughts, would like to hear from more experienced nasus players

ya link me pls

Iota Theta1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5KM9GY3Z,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-06-29T06:48:32.153+0000)

nah that's just me lol, nobody here likes illaoi

i agree though, wholeheartedly, people are so rabidly anti-adc right now that they aren't realizing how much worse this will be for the melees who HAVE to hit the front line tanks. i think thornmail is just a bad design in general, but this will actually probably put us in a tank meta just because any and all sustain based bruisers will vanish

p.s dad i made a nasus thread if u want to gimme ur thoughts, would like to hear from more experienced nasus players

A question purely out of curiosity, but how much does trundle rely on sustaining in a fight? I know he heals a lot when he clears a wave due to his passive, but I thought his build is generally a Hydra, maybe a Cleaver, then into tank items, only to ult the tank and steal their defenses anyway make himself tankier and more effective against them. I didn't think in-combat sustain was important to trundle, or at least as important as the other three listed.

Escheton1 votes

You clearly never played a tank into an adc. Or a tank into any of the champs you listed. Darius? Really mate? Bout time there existed an item that actually worked against him and his BC synergy.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

You clearly never played a tank into an adc. Or a tank into any of the champs you listed. Darius? Really mate? Bout time there existed an item that actually worked against him and his BC synergy.

I'm a Nasus main lol

I've played a ton of Maokai, Malphite, Leona, ChoGath and Alistar as well

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Another fact you're overlooking, is hurricane applying on-hit effects. And it's a common item since it was buffed. So while you're applying grievous wounds from being hit, the marksmen is still getting healed by the other two allies.

Annoxis1 votes

It is not how it works. This Thormail will reduce all forms of healings, so the heals from the secundary targets will also be reduced.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

I'm aware, but lifesteal still applies to all enemies hit, so it'll still be 1.5 times as effective with the hurricane as apposed to 3 times.

9Wly9oMl021 votes

You should put the changes in your post. I have no idea what new thornmail is and don't feel like giving it a google.

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