Boards›Gameplay

Sunfire Cape costs more than Black Cleaver

The Ecdysiast··19 votes·2,110 views

Now, obviously the total cost of Sunfire is 100g less than Black Cleaver, but that ignores their gold efficiency. If you factor in the gold efficiency of the items' base stats, then Sunfire actually costs 500g more. In the same lane however, Cleaver's shred passive reduces the armor of Sunfire by up to 15, so it loses an additional 10% gold efficiency, widening the difference to 800g.

  • Sunfire's passive at level 9 grants 425g worth of damage. Cleaver's Rage passive grants either 340g worth of MS, or 1020g.

  • So at minimum, the overall difference between Sunfire (LV9) and Cleaver is 415g in Cleaver's favor. At maximum, the difference is 1,395g in Cleaver's favor.

Coincidentally, the gold cost of that 20% CDR is 533g. That's only 33 shy of exactly evening out the difference from base stats. So that's an easy way to make it a more balanced matchup. One problem solved.

As for their passives, we can make an exception for the 300 gold difference due to armor shred, as Cleaver is intended to be anti-armor. That still leaves a difference of either 415 or 1,095 depending on which Rage is activated. My suggestion for balancing this would be to put Dreadnought (but not Crushing Blow) on Sunfire Cape as a second passive, and change the passive on Deadman's Plate*. That perfectly evens the difference with its 60 MS.

######*I suggested in another thread that we get an armor item with Visage's passive, and it would fit Deadman's name nicely. But any other passive would also be fine.

TL;DR: The gold efficiency difference between Sunfire and Cleaver could be completely balanced by giving Sunfire 20% CDR and Dreadnought.

24 Comments

Alex h87213 votes

I like the idea of CDR on an armor/hp item, currently the only one that has it is item 3800 which is more of a juggernaut item than a tank item, but tanks buy it for the active for engaging.

Rootlo5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Alex h8721,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5FsJfYi6,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-11-07T17:36:13.340+0000)

I like the idea of CDR on an armor/hp item, currently the only one that has it is item 3800 which is more of a juggernaut item than a tank item, but tanks buy it for the active for engaging.

LOL tfw no one realizes that item 3056 Gives hp armor and cdr as well. Its my first buy on shen every game

The Ecdysiast1 votes

If only it had a little more Hp, it’d be worth the item slot. Though with the new rune that damages towers, it may be good.

It’s kind of unfair to say it works when the example is on Shen, since his primary strength is global ganks. Means the active works well for him.

Rootlo1 votes

{quoted}

If only it had a little more Hp, it’d be worth the item slot. Though with the new rune that damages towers, it may be good.

It’s kind of unfair to say it works when the example is on Shen, since his primary strength is global ganks. Means the active works well for him.

To be honest, i dont even use the active on shen lmao, i get it solely cause its the only Armor + hp + cdr item that dosent give him a useless stat like mana. But i still build Righteous glory on him anyway

The Ecdysiast1 votes

RIGHT! I forgot that part. Since Shen doesn't use mana, it doesn't matter to him that the item doesn't grant mana.

You're completely right that it's a good first buy on Shen. He can make the most out of all its stats, and doesn't suffer from what it lacks.

Rootlo1 votes

{quoted}

RIGHT! I forgot that part. Since Shen doesn't use mana, it doesn't matter to him that the item doesn't grant mana.

You're completely right that it's a good first buy on Shen. He can make the most out of all its stats, and doesn't suffer from what it lacks.

Yeah, sadly other than Garen thats the only time ill buy it lol.

Penns3 votes

How does one calculate damage as gold value tho? And how is Sunfire only 400? lul

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

How does one calculate damage as gold value tho? And how is Sunfire only 400? lul

I took the damage from Sunfire, and calculated it as if it were AP.

nice table2 votes

im intrigued, can i have the calculation formula cause this sounds hilarious

Mcsquzzy1 votes

most people use the base stats of the starter items to determine the value of a stat by dividing the cost by the amount of the stat the item gives, so item 1036 is 10 AD for 350 so 1 AD is 35 gold item 1052 is 20 AP for 435 so 1 AP is 21.75 gold

nice table2 votes

1 ap =/= 1 damage per second if 1 ap translated to 1 damage per second mages would actually be broken as fuck

Mcsquzzy1 votes

well he said it himself that he treated the damage as ap and at level 9 its 20 per second which if treated as 20 ap would be a little over 400, I only told you how I believe he did his math because that answers your prior question. So I apologies if you were being rhetorical

The Ecdysiast1 votes

You’re right. Which is why melee champions scale MR per level. However, most mages can deal at least 100% of their AP in damage in under 1 second.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

Easily. It’s on the wiki. I used 1 AP as the cost as if it were a 100% AP scaling ability. Simple enough. Unless you want to factor in the fact most top laners have per-level MR and lower that number.

Painted Celt3 votes

You raise some good points. I think most people would agree that item 3068 could use some buffs, considering that almost every single top-lane tank who builds it as <50% winrate with it. I think that it would be better to buff the existing health/armor stats or passive on Sunfire though. Or the price for Sunfire could be reduced until it is equivalently efficient to other class options.

I think CDR is already on too many different items, and I feel there especially isn't room for another 20% CDR item on tanks. With the suggested 20% CDR on Sunfire, tanks would be capped out with just item 3068 item 3025, and would be unable to fully benefit from the stats on item 3194 item 3065 item 3083 item 3110 item 3001 item 3800. I also think item 3800 item 3742 item 3512 already allow tanks plenty of mobility options, considering that they often have gap-closers or ranged CC, and are often thematically designed as slow, lumbering, heavily armored champions.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Painted Celt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5FsJfYi6,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-11-07T18:18:14.372+0000)

You raise some good points. I think most people would agree that item 3068 could use some buffs, considering that almost every single top-lane tank who builds it as <50% winrate with it. I think that it would be better to buff the existing health/armor stats or passive on Sunfire though. Or the price for Sunfire could be reduced until it is equivalently efficient to other class options.

I think CDR is already on too many different items, and I feel there especially isn't room for another 20% CDR item on tanks. With the suggested 20% CDR on Sunfire, tanks would be capped out with just item 3068 item 3025, and would be unable to fully benefit from the stats on item 3194 item 3065 item 3083 item 3110 item 3001 item 3800. I also think item 3800 item 3742 item 3512 already allow tanks plenty of mobility options, considering that they often have gap-closers or ranged CC, and are often thematically designed as slow, lumbering, heavily armored champions.

If they opt for 40% from Sunfire and Gauntlet, then I think it's perfectly fine to lose ~260 gold on all those items that give only 10%, seeing as most of them are above 100% efficiency.

As for Frozen Heart, most of the time you don't buy it and Gauntlet together in the first place. Otherwise you'd see people capping at 40% from them.

Righteous Glory and Zz'rot are very niche items, and only work on certain tanks in certain matchups. Deadman's, I mentioned that if Sunfire were to get Dreadnought then Deadman's should be changed. As it stands, Deadman's suffers almost exactly the same cost problem as Sunfire. It kind of serves as a middle-ground item between being useful for tanks and removing their ability to catch up to or damage the juggernauts/bruisers who already outclass them in lane and are given a more efficient item that counters any and all possible first item choices for tanks.

However, I do agree that CDR is too available to all champions. They made the mistake of giving every single class besides support a first-buy option that comes with 20%. But that issue is separate. We know they aren't going to remove CDR, since it would increase game times and make plays less flashy, so the most we can do is ask them to balance the tank first-buy around the fact every other class has that option on a reasonable first-buy.

  • While tanks do have an option, it's either Gauntlet or Heart, neither of which grant the health or damage a solo lane champion needs. Mana means nothing when the enemy can kill you before you finish one rotation, and your rotation barely scratches them because you have no damage. If more tanks scaled damaging abilities with armor, it'd be an OK option. But only Taric, Malphite, and Rammus do.
Mcsquzzy2 votes

dont forget we have a rune that increases damage based on going beyond the cdr cap incoming

Rexxiee1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Painted Celt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5FsJfYi6,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-11-07T18:18:14.372+0000)

You raise some good points. I think most people would agree that item 3068 could use some buffs, considering that almost every single top-lane tank who builds it as <50% winrate with it. I think that it would be better to buff the existing health/armor stats or passive on Sunfire though. Or the price for Sunfire could be reduced until it is equivalently efficient to other class options.

I think CDR is already on too many different items, and I feel there especially isn't room for another 20% CDR item on tanks. With the suggested 20% CDR on Sunfire, tanks would be capped out with just item 3068 item 3025, and would be unable to fully benefit from the stats on item 3194 item 3065 item 3083 item 3110 item 3001 item 3800. I also think item 3800 item 3742 item 3512 already allow tanks plenty of mobility options, considering that they often have gap-closers or ranged CC, and are often thematically designed as slow, lumbering, heavily armored champions.

Except tanks are already overpowered, you cant buff any more of their items.

Maybe if you removed stoneplate and bramble vest/thornmail from the game first. then we can talk about buffing sunfire.

Painted Celt4 votes

Certain tanks may be pretty strong in the jungle, but item 3068 is really only used for top-laning tanks and I only see 1 top-lane tank Sion who has >50% winrate building item 3068. If you can find statistics that show item 3068 isn't underpowered, then please share them.

Also, it's debatable if tanks are even overpowered in the jungle, since Chogath is the main outlier, and he is arguably a magic-damage Juggernaut with a weird interaction with a specific tank item item 3193. His CC is super unreliable, so a lot of his strength is from his ultimate damage. He plays kind of similarly to other Juggernauts, like Darius or Garen, but he's even tankier due to his odd itemization and his execute is even stronger to the the stoneplate interaction. Also, there are non-tank Junglers (XinZhao) with higher winrates than Chogath anyways.

GrReaper961 votes

Personally (dont kill me for this) i think item 3071 should have its CDR reduced to 10%

Blackstone011 votes

It's because Black Cleaver is a "core" item for an entire class of champions, the juggernauts, and many bruisers in general (excluding some edge cases like Nasus). All the big core items are extremely gold and slot efficient. Trinity Force, Morellonomicon, Infinity Edge, and Duskblade are similar in that regard.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

You're completely right. All the core items are slot and gold efficient--- but tanks lack that kind of item. Sunfire is the intended first buy for top lane tanks because they lack damage to clear minions on their own. But for some reason it has been left out of the treatment given to the other classes' core items.

I'm only asking that they even out Sunfire to match the quality of a first buy that every other class has. Fighters get a 400HP item that directly counters armor and gives 20% cdr, like trinity and Morello. Tanks should get that cdr at the very least, since having that doesn't negate the effect of Black Cleaver on their armor-- which is why I'm not suggesting a simple armor increase, as that would be the same as removing the shred from BC.

Tortunga1 votes

Or they could just add some extra armour/health/damage to Sunfire. Makes the item better for everyone that wants to use, as getting 40% CDR isn't really hard to get for juggernauts/tanks anyway, which would just result in the 20% CDR being wasted.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

Or they could just add some extra armour/health/damage to Sunfire. Makes the item better for everyone that wants to use, as getting 40% CDR isn't really hard to get for juggernauts/tanks anyway, which would just result in the 20% CDR being wasted.

It wouldn’t be wasted, since frozen heart and gauntlet are very niche items that you can’t normally stack anyway.

And again, the fact 20% CDR is the same as the cost difference means that it would even out currently wasted gold, not add waste.

l

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by The Ecdysiast

Please Add Black Market Brawlers to the Rotation
Gameplay97 comments
273
votes
No chest for S- if a lobby member is punished
Report a Bug89 comments
212
votes
590 RP is not 6300 IP (Rune Page Cost inequality)
Gameplay100 comments
207
votes
Solari "rejected all other forms of light as false"
Story, Art, & Sound96 comments
160
votes
PSA that Soraka does %HP True damage
Gameplay96 comments
150
votes
They should keep this Yasuo "bug"
Gameplay201 comments
136
votes