If 5.5 has another jungle blanket nerf without a buff I am quitting this game

Visigoth·Feb 26, 2015·144 votes·6,568 views

It's getting pretty fucking retarded.

149 Comments

Reynard the ƒoxFeb 26, 201551 votes

The next TOS you're gonna have to sign makes you promise to pick or ban Lee Sin every single game. Failure to do so will result in account suspension.

SolaxoFeb 26, 201513 votes

And to make at least 5 LC$ big flashy plays every game

ScreamPasteFeb 26, 201534 votes

I remember when there were more than three junglers.

FHMarshyFeb 26, 201543 votes

There still are. Amumu , Udyr , Shaco , Fiddlesticks , Pantheon , XinZhao , Warwick

Acidic PuddleFeb 26, 20159 votes

Nidalee LeeSin JarvanIV Jax Diana Elise Hecarim MasterYi Nocturne Nunu Olaf Rammus RekSai Rengar Shyvana Skarner Trundle Volibear just to add a few more.

RisottoNeroFeb 26, 20155 votes

Pantheon and Fiddle are doing well

LoL Ergo UrgotFeb 26, 20153 votes

I am having success with skarner as far as clearings go. I can clear many camps and stay pretty healthy.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbFeb 27, 20153 votes

Noc really isn't that good.

The EcdysiastFeb 27, 20151 votes

I know he was exaggerating at 3, but you included the other 4 that are viable, and a lot of ones who either can't clear the jungle, or can clear the jungle but can't gank effectively unless the enemy is really, really stupid.

Acidic PuddleFeb 27, 20151 votes

Actually, they can all clear the jungle, with most of them I have personally done them, and the other I have seen in game with me or on a stream.

The EcdysiastFeb 28, 20151 votes

And then you have the HP to gank without being deleted upon arrival at the same time as a Jarvan, Vi, or Lee, right?

Acidic PuddleFeb 28, 20151 votes

That is what "b" is for, and the Crab...

Mikal PikalFeb 26, 201523 votes

You were downvoted for listing viable jungle champions...sigh

FHMarshyFeb 26, 201515 votes

I know lmao just shows how illogical this community is lol. It's ok they can just hate and continue to be bad :)

slaya45Feb 26, 201514 votes

No they're not top tier so they're not viable.

God, can you even circle jerk?

magic poleFeb 27, 20154 votes

let me add that since PROFESSIONAL players don't pick them, they are trash

lightdshadowsFeb 27, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=magic pole,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=54v9WAiw,comment-id=000200000001000000000001,timestamp=2015-02-27T00:04:07.173+0000)

let me add that since PROFESSIONAL players don't pick them, they are trash

basically what i've been saying. Don't see them in LCS? Must be garbage.

The EcdysiastFeb 27, 20152 votes

That's actually how it is... The balance changes are based on LCS play. They may nerf and buff the heavy meta champs but they're forgetting the reason people don't use other junglers in professional play is NOT because they don't know the other champions, it's that they know if they choose them they'll lose.

DeusVultFeb 26, 201511 votes

Also, Nautilus Rammus Skarner Volibear Trundle MasterYi Chogath Diana

I will get downvoted for naming champs that I can jungle with and pull off a solid first clear of the entire jungle without backing, not even going below 50% on certain champs, yet because people don't adjust strategies/runes/masteries, they say that only 3 champs are viable

A Pig that flysFeb 27, 20154 votes

It's not about how many junglers there are that CAN jungle, it's about how many of them aren't completely gimped in the jungle

RavenKouhaiFeb 26, 201514 votes

Remember back in the days of s4, where you could jungle anyone? And you ran no risk of being executed in the jungle after your first back?

Learn 2 SwimFeb 26, 201511 votes

i already quit SR

about to quit this game too

GaloisMar 13, 20151 votes

Lol good, go quit. We don't need negative attitudes in this game :D

FHMarshyFeb 26, 20159 votes

Been a Jungle main since season 3, and I think the jungle is fine as it is

IncognonymousFeb 26, 201512 votes

{quoted}

Been a Jungle main since season 3, and I think the jungle is fine as it is

"Been a Lee Sin main since season 3, and I think the jungle is fine as it is"

Fixed that for you, mate. The jungle is garbage unless you happen to be a Riot endorsed pick. End of story.

FHMarshyFeb 26, 20159 votes

LMFAO I don't even play lee sin son check my match history.

You can't play jungle well doesn't mean it is garbage, but you might be.

RogueWillFeb 26, 20156 votes

If you mean the jungle is playable, yes it is. But it is far from fine, now you have to be really focus and actually do soft resets and have an specialized rune and mastery page to be able to clear it.

Fact, players before lvl 30 will get executed 90% of the times (try it yourself, clear your mastery and rune page and try jungling), players that are new to the role will get executed around 60% of the time. Veterans might have a better chance since you have more knowledge but for casual players and the new junglers is a living nightmare. Add that to the pressure from the assumption that jungler "has to" gank and if I lose my lane is jungler fault thing and you have a really unpleasant experience.

Coming from a main jungler from season 2, Jungle is fine for competitive play, as it is less forgiven and mistakes made by junglers can be capitalized. But for the main majority of league players is way too harsh and kinda unfair to be punished so bad for one or two mistakes done in the whole game.

FHMarshyFeb 26, 20154 votes

TBH pre lvl 20, I say people shouldn't even jungle. That HAS been the case from as long as i remember. Runes/masteries play too much of a role into the first clears.

And I think when you say "Competitive plays" I would think you are referring to LCS. But I've been seeing good junglers from low gold and up.

RogueWillFeb 26, 20155 votes

low gold and Up represents 20% of the players from league at best. So what you are telling me is balance for 20% instead of the 80%? something doesn't add up there. What about the players that don't go ranked? I think it should be balance for the 80% of the players unless riot can sustain themselves financially with just 20% of their current players database.

I started jungle by lvl 15 (No runes yet as I didn't understood the concept), back in season 2 it was a really underplayed role and I had a slow computer so I couldn't call other lane fast enough. As I result I was always jungling. Truth is I wasn't really able to gank since the jungle take its toll but I was able to clear camps, recall and clear other camps. Now you have to recall after each single camp.....

I'm afraid to tell you this but most players fell in love with a single champion before they hit lvl 30 and they consider themselves main of that champion, with this changes there would be less and less jungle mains to the point the duo top lane will go back.

FHMarshyFeb 26, 20153 votes

No, I didn't say that jungle is ONLY viable low gold and up. I meant that there are GOOD junglers from low gold and up. Bronze 5 to silver have people that can jungle/knows the in and out, but not necessarily good.

Who do you play that will require you to back every single camp? I play Amumu , Fiddlesticks , Jax , Pantheon , Shaco , XinZhao , JarvanIV and I could generally sustain to at least lvl 3 or 4 in the jungle before me backing. Or it might be the route you take?

Yes , you will have a "main" before hitting 30, but you will also be required to play other roles in ranked or even in normals when you just didn't call quick enough. I didn't start off as a jungler before i played rank. I was a mid main that was continuously last pick (when ranked pick order is sorted by Elo and i always duo with my room mate who was above me) and was forced to jungle, in which i learned and loved and started maining it.

ChessburgerFeb 27, 20152 votes

I have to put my 2 cents in. The reason the top 4 are the top 4 is not because of how they clear at first in relation to their lesser counterparts. It is the difference of how fast they clear after buying the jungle item.

The issue with tank jungles is that your clear is at least 50% slower when you buy a juggernaut upgrade compared to someone who prefers warrior. Those 10min clears are the most important factor because you can get quite farmed while maintaining pressure and objective control. You get (for the sake of simplicity I'll go with this made up number again but you can't deny it's not at least somewhat true) 50% less gold/xp on tanks than on someone with warrior from the jungle. It doesn't matter if it's only 10% less in reality it's still a huge disadvantage. (you're also gated by your abilities = mana because you have to use more to clear and most tanks' abilities cost more than the popular ad jungles abilities). By 50% less gold and exp I mean that in order to still maintain map/game control akin to top tier junglers, you have to farm less because it takes more of your resources (time+mana). Also note I don't mean you get 50% less xp and gold on tanks but merely that you potentially get "50%" less gold and xp in a very specific time frame of the game (that varies between games) where objective/game control is of utmost importance for how the game is going to unravel in the next stages of the game. Jeez I really hope I articulated this point clearly.

AP jungles have the problem of no mana regen on magus = your mid laners will hate you or your gameplay will be stalled by more backs than should have been necessary.

Some AD junglers are semi restricted by mana but significantly less than tanks and AP junglers due to their consistent damage output through AA.

Top tier junglers have all of the goodies addressed previously on top of having unrestricted mobility, meaning they can dash into any direction they choose. Non top tier but decent AA junglers have mobility tied to targeting enemy units which means their play style is a lot more "go HAM or go home" - if you're slightly behind you fall further behind unless getting carried by others.

Tl;DR I just want to emphasize that you can play pretty much whatever the heck you want if you're good with it and know your power spikes/match ups etc but for a lot of champs the spikes and control you exert is rigid and predictable to an experienced player while the top junglers are very flexible. And flexibility is why jungle as a role is similar to the queen in chess. If you force your queen to not be able to move say horizontally, you're limiting yourself and opening more chances for the opponent. How's that for a metaphor, ha? :D

Edit: deleted the wall of text since it was an enormous wall that only contained more detailed explanations and accounts of what I meant but wasn't crucial to the point of this post.

lightdshadowsFeb 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

low gold and Up represents 20% of the players from league at best. So what you are telling me is balance for 20% instead of the 80%? something doesn't add up there. What about the players that don't go ranked? I think it should be balance for the 80% of the players unless riot can sustain themselves financially with just 20% of their current players database.

I started jungle by lvl 15 (No runes yet as I didn't understood the concept), back in season 2 it was a really underplayed role and I had a slow computer so I couldn't call other lane fast enough. As I result I was always jungling. Truth is I wasn't really able to gank since the jungle take its toll but I was able to clear camps, recall and clear other camps. Now you have to recall after each single camp.....

I'm afraid to tell you this but most players fell in love with a single champion before they hit lvl 30 and they consider themselves main of that champion, with this changes there would be less and less jungle mains to the point the duo top lane will go back.

Low gold and up have a better understanding of balance and what is necessary to make a balanced game than low gold > x. This may change as player population increases and the skillcap may go from low gold to low plat, but that's the way it works. You don't have the casual player system run the game. You have people who play extensively and research and learn the ins and outs decide what is actually balanced. Not everything is balanced now, no. But would you really put the future of the game in the hands of a bronze player who mains AP Darius? Pls.

Jungle is by far one of the more difficult roles in competitive play. By competitive I mean anyone who is actually trying to climb the ladder and win. You have much more to learn than when to poke and when to CS, movement mechanics, etc. You have to watch the map. You have to know when to gank and when not to gank. It is much harder to be an effective jungler than an effective mid laner, and in many cases it can be much more important. As a jungler you control the flow of the game.

Learning how to lane is the basic infrastructure of League of Legends. You need to learn how to lane before you learn how to jungle and affect the lanes. Sure, you can give it a go as a brand new SL 15, but don't expect to know what you're doing. It takes people thousands of games to master their roles.

I agree that people like Fox and Stonewall have excellent points on the jungle. They have both been high ELO players for a very long time, so their opinions should not be ignored. However, I do think there are alternatives and people are simply overlooking them because they are not meta champs. In any season, there has always been an overlooked pool of champions ( or puddle ), and in this season it's jungle so far.

the Anarchit3chtFeb 26, 20152 votes

Considering I run ADC runes/masteries on all my junglers you DON'T need a specialized mastery/rune page.

Silents429Feb 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

"Been a Lee Sin main since season 3, and I think the jungle is fine as it is"

Fixed that for you, mate. The jungle is garbage unless you happen to be a Riot endorsed pick. End of story.

I am currently having no issues with the jungle, even having less XP hasn't been a real problem anymore. Yes it needs some changes but honestly everyone I jungled last season does it exactly the same now, If not better.

IncognonymousFeb 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I am currently having no issues with the jungle, even having less XP hasn't been a real problem anymore. Yes it needs some changes but honestly everyone I jungled last season does it exactly the same now, If not better.

"Anymore". So clearly, you were aware of the problem at one point. The jungle gives less gold, less experience, and more responsibility then it ever did at any point in the game, yet the tools junglers utilize have been repeatedly nerfed. I don't necessarily think any two of those factors is enough to make the jungle bad, but all of them at once is too much. This is an incredibly easy fix, Riot simply doesn't want junglers to be strong.

Silents429Feb 26, 20151 votes

"anymore" as in yes, at one point it was difficult, but now it isn't difficult. I found a good balance between ganking and farming, allowing me to stay at LEAST a level behind which isn't unreasonable.

What new responsibilities have been given to junglers? Scuttle crab made it so I don't need to put wards down, and I get XP and gold for it.

At its core, the jungle is inherently the same, just more difficult and stressful, I would be lieing if I said I mained jungle still, but it isn't that bad.

Kitten of EvilFeb 27, 20151 votes

Scuttle crab made it so I don't need to put wards down, and I get XP and gold for it.

Maybe so, but if you play as Nocturne Fiddlesticks Malphite or many other junglers, you can spend 30 seconds chasing it down and hitting it before it dies.

Silents429Feb 27, 20151 votes

How is it that hard? Nocturne can keep up with it with his Q. Fiddle W is powerful along with a fear to slow it down, and Malphite has a slow.

Or just have the support kill it, naming a tiny pool of champions that take slightly longer to kill it doesn't mean anything.

Kitten of EvilFeb 27, 20151 votes

Sure, if you have spare mana to use on it, I guess. But Fiddles actually has the hardest time of any in my experience, since his fear makes it move away from you and his W makes it move super fast whenever it's hit. Noc can use Q to keep up with it, but the thing still has 60 armor and 60 MR, so I feel like I'm spending 20 seconds or more chasing it down and hitting it, all the while sitting out in the open in river. Is it worth wasting 2 or 3 mana spells on? Maybe, but it doesn't feel satisfying to run OOM because I killed scuttler.

Silents429Feb 27, 20151 votes

Never had that problem. It usually dies really quickly with my W, Assuming you stand where it is going.

I do however think the crab shouldn't be so dang tanky to deal with, but it really isn't that hard, and gives a nice amount of gold.

CBosssFeb 26, 20154 votes

Khazix item 3070

Silents429Feb 26, 20153 votes

Don't worry Khazix maybe you can evolve and adapt to the new jungle.

Troy242621Feb 26, 20156 votes

You wouldn't feel the need to point out that you're a jungle main unless you knew at least on some level that what you're saying is bullsh*t.

I'm tired of being automatically behind if I don't pick Rek, Lee, Vi or J4. In S4, I jungled Nautilus, Malphite, Talon, Trundle, Amumu, Ireila and Gragas. In S3, I played about six different tank junglers. Were they top tier? No, but they worked well if played properly.

Now? Most offpicks run the risk of being executed on their third camp, especially on their second clear. GOD help you if one of the God tier junglers decide to invade you. I have to play well just to fkin' catch up from picking poorly.

FHMarshyFeb 26, 20159 votes

No i pointed out that im a jungle cuz people starts sprouting bull shit after they got forced into jungle and can't play it. lmfao.

I main Shaco, I play Amumu, Xin, panth and jax in the jungle. Never once was I "automatically behind if I don't pick Rek, Lee, Vi or J4." I've also seen Nunu, Naut, Elise, Malphite work great in the jungle.

And all of those I mentioned above is just season 5.

Don't complain and call what people's valid argument bullshit when in reality you just are not at the level.

Btw, Good job on that game with Naut against a Rek'sai and that Fid game against the Elise. Bravo you just proved yourself wrong. lmao. I thought you said Naut and Fid can't be played anymore?

Understand what you are saying before saying it please.

Troy242621Feb 27, 20153 votes

No. What you're attempting to do is artificially create a false sense of authority with anecdotal evidence using a small sample size resulting in such a staggering amount of extraneous variables such as varying skill levels that the results aren't valid enough to formulate a conclusion with.

Yes, because I have familiarity with Nautilus BECAUSE I use him. It doesn't make him as good as the four top picks. It means that in that particular game I happened to play well.

I'm not at that level but evidently I do well with Nautilus :. Trying to assassinate my character proves my point about you relying on fallacious arguments.

Please try using logic instead of banking on logical fallacies. It'll make you much more credible when evaluated by someone who knows what you're trying to do. You wouldn't be so offended and defensive if I was so horribly wrong about my opinion of you.

Lastly, just because you don't REALIZE you're behind doesn't mean you aren't, and you probably WON'T realize it unless you're playing against an enemy jungler that knows how to abuse your mistakes. Good junglers will have a vice grip on your balls the second they have an advantage they can safely press.

FHMarshyFeb 27, 20151 votes

And I would really think plat 1 elo actually have good junglers that does whatever you claim good junglers do, no?

I pointed naut out because apparently you can win with him, meaning you don't have to pick the "op" champs to win if you are good with others.

I am logical, you are just refusing to see it for who knows what reason.

IncognonymousFeb 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

And I would really think plat 1 elo actually have good junglers that does whatever you claim good junglers do, no?

I pointed naut out because apparently you can win with him, meaning you don't have to pick the "op" champs to win if you are good with others.

I am logical, you are just refusing to see it for who knows what reason.

Except that winning with Nautilus has exactly zero to do with how good you are and everything to do with how well your team capitalizes on what you bring to the table (CC). The problem with the current ace junglers is that many bring CC and are not team reliant.

FHMarshyFeb 27, 20151 votes

But You can always easily have a Jarvan/Vi/Rek/Lee engaging without follow up and end up dying?

I don't really believe any jungler can be not team reliant.

IncognonymousFeb 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

But You can always easily have a Jarvan/Vi/Rek/Lee engaging without follow up and end up dying?

I don't really believe any jungler can be not team reliant.

Boy, that's a cute scenario all right. Except that those guys totally have the damage necessary to kill their target by themselves. Naut isn't supposed to. There's a difference between "all junglers are team reliant" and "this champ is literally designed to give his team the tools to succeed-- he is designed team reliant". That describes Naut perfectly. It does not describe Jarv/Vi/Rek/Lee.