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It would be fun if building armor against Yasuo, or any conq user, was useful.

Succubús GF··91 votes·18,494 views

Like my post is mainly aimed towards yasuo. And I have tried to be reasonable. I've tried to be like "he has bad matchups" And that may be true (We arent going to talk about how most of his bad matchups are non mid laners zz) But it's not even about that. I would easily be able to forgive his low cds (His mobile ability is 0.5-0.1 seconds just by the way.), and less gating kit Cough him ulting OUTSIDE of turret range despite initially being in it. It's more so about I can't build against him. His ult, is armor pen. His keystone, is true damage. (Let's not forget ignites true damage i might as well be a piece of butter) Like I would legitimately forgive him basically being a hypermobile bruiser with relatively low cds, without a resource AND double passive (Not overloaded btw teeehee ~~sorry thats salty ~~) If I could just be able to play defensively against him without him using my minions against me, doing true damage at pretty much leisure and making armor most useless stat.

Tldr; Please allow me to go defensive reasonably without the enemy conqueror user laughing in my fucking face

107 Comments

Hotarµ48 votes

I honestly think Conqueror wouldn't be a problem if it didn't give bonus AD in addition to true damage. Conqueror's niche should have been "helps against tanks" instead of "helps against everyone and then some."

There's no reason to take any other keystone on most melee champions because if you can't run Conqueror, chances are you run Electrocute or a Resolve keystone instead. I'd like to see them experiment and make Conqueror do a small % of current health in true damage to help damage tanks over time instead of dominating everyone at most points of the game.

The E773 votes

maybe an idea could be to make it be like cut down? something like "if a champions max hp is below 1000 take 5% less damage from them, if a champion's current hp is over 2300, do 5% more damage to them, if they have over 3500 current hp, do 7% more damage to them, if they have over 4500 current hp, do 10% more damage to them", this would make it so champions that don't build hp don't get utterly raped by it, but it also would make it so tanks aren't just "if they take this keystone, i die at all stages" and it would help champions not get bodied by champions with massively high base stats that kinda just 2 shot you at lvl 3, but would also make it so if a tank gets to 5 - 6 items, they don't become this fat ball of unkillable stats that slowly wins by attrition

Tarquin961 votes

That seems like a nice idea but the numbers would need to be bigger,since if left at those it would never get picked

GigglesO2 votes

Those are already pretty high values.

The E772 votes

the numbers may be too high or low, im not a game designer, but my general idea was "if someone has almost 0 hp (aka early game) take a bit less damage, and then late game do more damage to tanks" (2000 hp is normally the average hp of an adc) but make it so it falls off the lower hp they become so then that way, you can really chunk tanks when their full hp, but when their about half hp u don't do as much damage, allowing the tank player to potentially heal up (like maokie) or shield up like ornn to survive

Ragnaveil8 votes

The point of Conqueror was to be a bruiser rune to make up for the lack of catering they got in runes reforged. None of the runes really catered to those types but PTA and Grasp. Instead of making it a fight scaling rune, they made it a overloaded defensive killer that kills tanks and everyone alike with no hope in itemizing against it. "Just build health" Yeah, like thats gonna help when either blade autos get converted, or magic and phys damage are being converted at the same time, or you are someone like Yi who just shreds squish and tanks alike.

Hash has said it before, and im more and more finding it might be true: They dont have a toplaner in their live design team.

Hotarµ3 votes

{quoted}

The point of Conqueror was to be a bruiser rune to make up for the lack of catering they got in runes reforged. None of the runes really catered to those types but PTA and Grasp. Instead of making it a fight scaling rune, they made it a overloaded defensive killer that kills tanks and everyone alike with no hope in itemizing against it. "Just build health" Yeah, like thats gonna help when either blade autos get converted, or magic and phys damage are being converted at the same time, or you are someone like Yi who just shreds squish and tanks alike.

Hash has said it before, and im more and more finding it might be true: They dont have a toplaner in their live design team.

Exactly.

Conqueror honestly has a lot of potential, but it's current state of giving free stats and true damage just isn't healthy. Honestly, most of the people who can take the rune just abuse it anyway, it's not like a small nudge of power.

Often I'll see Jax, Irelia, or Yasuo take Conqueror and deal 4-6k+ true damage over the course of a game.

Ragnaveil6 votes

Meanwhile any bruiser or juggernaut that cant take it is left out feeling like shit and forced to look elsewhere for other runes.

The E772 votes

why not rework it to the idea they had when it was in development with % armor and mr pen? BUT make it like old LDR, so u stack it up, auto to activate, and while in combat gain BONUS armor and mr pen, that way it wont make you instakill squishies, but will also make it help vs tanks like it was inteded to

AirKingNeo1 votes

keep in mind Conqueror is a tank killer because Riot won't properly balance tanks to make bruisers be able to fight them though their absurd CC in their kits.

Both are issues that should be fixed.

Beast Brawler2 votes

The way to fix Conqueror and make tanks playable again is to remove the true damage and buff the AD. Replace the True damage with a bit of armor pen, not a ton, but a small amount. That way it's not only easier to balance, it's also not cancer to play against because you're not getting melted with true damage.

DragonShea2 votes

{quoted}

I honestly think Conqueror wouldn't be a problem if it didn't give bonus AD in addition to true damage. Conqueror's niche should have been "helps against tanks" instead of "helps against everyone and then some."

There's no reason to take any other keystone on most melee champions because if you can't run Conqueror, chances are you run Electrocute or a Resolve keystone instead. I'd like to see them experiment and make Conqueror do a small % of current health in true damage to help damage tanks over time instead of dominating everyone at most points of the game.

I think the bonus AD is there for any True damage abilities that scale with AD like Pyke or Darius Ults, however I think that the True damage needs to be nerfed. that is the core issue because it's doing its job of killing tanks and any tanky champions very well.

X Devil Hunter X1 votes

There was no time in league that you build armor and play like garbage and dont get snowballed on, learn how to play and you will stop inting soon

Hotarµ1 votes

[{quoted}](name=X Devil Hunter X,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5340ZrAO,comment-id=00000004,timestamp=2018-12-27T19:59:40.606+0000)

There was no time in league that you build armor and play like garbage and dont get snowballed on, learn how to play and you will stop inting soon

I didn't say anything about me having issues, I'm a support main.

It's fact that defensive champions are weaker right now than at most other points in League's history. No need to be rude, I'm not inting any of my games and I know how to play.

SweedishGunner16 votes

Fuck Yasuo.

Nea10414 votes

He is a mistake, as Zoe or Pyke .

Ηuawei5 votes

{quoted}

He is a mistake, as Zoe or Pyke .

Rito: People don't play support, what can we do? Rito: .. People like doing damage, people like assasins. Rito: .... Let's make a support assasin!

Nea1043 votes

That's so accurate! No jokes :D It was made for autofilled people, and for the Season 8 burst meta.

SociaI Justice14 votes

reminds me of a game yesterday where I was 5-0 as malphite against a full ad team and got absolutely deleted in a few seconds despite everything, good times.

Bultz1 votes

[{quoted}](name=SociaI Justice,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5340ZrAO,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-12-26T14:55:16.823+0000)

reminds me of a game yesterday where I was 5-0 as malphite against a full ad team and got absolutely deleted in a few seconds despite everything, good times.

Yes because tank malphtie should easily have 5 kills as a tank not a damage dealer then go into a 1v5 and win that to. k.

SociaI Justice10 votes

i'll go ahead and assume that you're a bronze - gold adc or mid lane main eh?

Vlada Cut1 votes

I only build armor items such as item 3047 and item 3143 just for the crit reduction, nothing else.

[{quoted}](name=SociaI Justice,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5340ZrAO,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2018-12-26T17:02:18.022+0000)

i'll go ahead and assume that you're a bronze - gold adc or mid lane main eh?

Rank shaming because you got nothing else to say? Oh boy and then I thought high elo was the ejucated one.

SociaI Justice2 votes

its not really rank shaming its more of a "every bad carry player spews this shit", i could try to convince him on why his wrong but the fact his level 150 and still holds such an idiotic belief makes me feel like i can't do it anyways, also i'm not """high elo"""

Vlada Cut1 votes

[{quoted}](name=SociaI Justice,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5340ZrAO,comment-id=00080000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-27T13:40:18.143+0000)

its not really rank shaming its more of a "every bad carry player spews this shit", i could try to convince him on why his wrong but the fact his level 150 and still holds such an idiotic belief

So it's still rank shaming.

SociaI Justice2 votes

i dunno fam i usually view rank shaming as "yous trash cuz silver" rather than "silver players seem to hold this opinion and lose it once they climb". good examples of this are """taxing""" and ""ksing"".

Vlada Cut1 votes

[{quoted}](name=SociaI Justice,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5340ZrAO,comment-id=0008000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-27T14:49:13.293+0000)

i dunno fam i usually view rank shaming as "yous trash cuz silver"

Which you did in your first post. Au revoir.

SociaI Justice2 votes

nah it was still more of a "stupid shit like this is what makes you sit at the rank you're at" rather than "you're trash because of your rank", i know it might be hard to tell the difference between "your opinion is trash because of your rank" and "your rank is x because of your opinions" but its there.

AggressiveWolf5 votes

Bultz bro, the Yasuo community is already the joke of league, I don't know why your making us look like more of a joke

Masala Chai1 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7rivdTp8c4

Relevant.

NepgearDesu8 votes

So you mean that a Yasuo with Conqueror, any Zeal upgrade and Infinity edge will ignore over half of your total armour for 15s after having pressed R? (50% bonus armour through ultimate buff, 20% total through Conqueror, 10% total through IE).

I get that offence should overtake defence so as to avoid having juggernauts bedecked with plates of armour smack each other for a solid 30s before one of them thinks of retreating, but I would have put the middle ground a little before Conqueror. Still, I'm no developer, so I wouldn't know what the largest audience of LoL prefers after seeing that season 8 had brought a 21% decrease in revenue as of August.

Beast Brawler2 votes

Pretty sure it ignores the armor first making the damage numbers bigger, then makes 30% of the damage number true damage. It's not fun.

Hěro7 votes

I think we hit that part of the game where you don't even need Conqueror to blow up tanks. The damage overall is really high and Riot already admitted that this season is damage heavy. But it's still the most effective keystone against them.

I want Conqueror nerfed or even deleted too, but it wouldn't change the fact that (some) tanks are just weak right now IMO. Well aight, It would make them at least a bit more useful.

GigglesO5 votes

You could have simplified this to.

It would be fun if building armor felt useful.

Bultz4 votes

{quoted}

Like my post is mainly aimed towards yasuo. And I have tried to be reasonable. I've tried to be like "he has bad matchups" And that may be true (We arent going to talk about how most of his bad matchups are non mid laners zz) But it's not even about that. I would easily be able to forgive his low cds (His mobile ability is 0.5-0.1 seconds just by the way.), and less gating kit Cough him ulting OUTSIDE of turret range despite initially being in it. It's more so about I can't build against him. His ult, is armor pen. His keystone, is true damage. (Let's not forget ignites true damage i might as well be a piece of butter) Like I would legitimately forgive him basically being a hypermobile bruiser with relatively low cds, without a resource AND double passive (Not overloaded btw teeehee ~~sorry thats salty ~~) If I could just be able to play defensively against him without him using my minions against me, doing true damage at pretty much leisure and making armor most useless stat.

Tldr; Please allow me to go defensive reasonably without the enemy conqueror user laughing in my fucking face

Yes, because it's so much fun for us who play Yasuo to go fight anyone with armor, have to struggle with positioning, outplaying, and stats, while you, who as a tank are doing levels of damage equal to Yasuo, just sit there and pound us into the ground. So much fun and logic.

MrSmiths17 votes

Yasuo's ult literally gives him 50% armor pen for 15 seconds. How do you play Yasuo and not know this?

GigglesO3 votes

How dare we reduce your 500 crit down to 200 using armor!

How dare we deal 200 damage with our spells while having less dps.

Emo Twink3 votes

Oops, your whole rotation accidently hit his windwall, now he can run up to you and shred you with that armor pen and true dmg

GigglesO3 votes

[sg-ahri-1]

xXDankMemer123Xx4 votes

Do you really think a shield that blocks ONE auto and takes 3 years to recharge is a second passive?

And the double crit passive, yes, its good mid-game, but it reduces dmg from crits, so its double edged sword.

And the way to beat yasuo is kiling him before he gets his pd ie, which if you harrass and take good trades and make him miss cs, he wont get them for a LONG time.

Some counetrs to yas mid: Le blanc, lissandra, viktor, zed. Why? BEcause they take good trades (lb, liss), poke (viktor), or have good all in (zed)

You could also play some top champs in mid, like fiora or renek. renek just kills you early game and fiora scales and trades well.

As a yas abuser, i will admit that conq could use some tuning, but yas still has counterplay (unless he is somehow 5/0 at 12 min, in which case you are most likely screwed)

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Eons31 votes

{quoted}

Do you really think a shield that blocks ONE auto and takes 3 years to recharge is a second passive?

And the double crit passive, yes, its good mid-game, but it reduces dmg from crits, so its double edged sword.

And the way to beat yasuo is kiling him before he gets his pd ie, which if you harrass and take good trades and make him miss cs, he wont get them for a LONG time.

Some counetrs to yas mid: Le blanc, lissandra, viktor, zed. Why? BEcause they take good trades (lb, liss), poke (viktor), or have good all in (zed)

You could also play some top champs in mid, like fiora or renek. renek just kills you early game and fiora scales and trades well.

As a yas abuser, i will admit that conq could use some tuning, but yas still has counterplay (unless he is somehow 5/0 at 12 min, in which case you are most likely screwed)

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

IF you can harrass him, your playing a champion that beats him. End of story. Thats that. games over. You win lane outside of JG interferance. If you CANT harrass him. you LOSE lane, You watch him scale harder than you, you watch him win the game, you dont even get to farm because he can use his DEFENSIVE move OFFENSIVELY not to kill you, but to STOP you from farming with your farm move. Brand isnt meta rn because he cant push Yasuo stops projectile based abilities 1 time every minion line. That means yasuo stops entire champions from being able to push at all. Ahri Corki Diana Ekko Fiddlesticks Karma Katarina Neeko Lux Taliyah Zyra Zoe Zed Velkoz TwistedFate Thats a small list of the champions that literally LOSE the ability to farm and have to max a side ability in order to deal with yasuos defensive tool when it gets used correctly against them.

xXDankMemer123Xx2 votes

I think yas is more of a mid game champ, with his pd ie spike, later on in teamfights you really cant do much.

Also yas ww is 22 sec cd rank 1, which just get him to use ww and THEN use you abilites to farm/trade

And each one of those champs hs diff strenghts, and you need to know how to play against him. i literally listed how to on my original comment.

[vlad-salute]

Eons31 votes

{quoted}

I think yas is more of a mid game champ, with his pd ie spike, later on in teamfights you really cant do much.

Also yas ww is 22 sec cd rank 1, which just get him to use ww and THEN use you abilites to farm/trade

And each one of those champs hs diff strenghts, and you need to know how to play against him. i literally listed how to on my original comment.

[vlad-salute]

Problem is certain champs cant do that. Brand cant mid lane because he cant wave clear thats how crutch it is to NOT have the waveclear broken. If neeko maxes her q yasuo caneat the root off cd and not care via lifesteal and neeko can never use her q for farming, if she maxes e(pointlessly) yasuo can windwall that. Minions crash every 30 seconds thats 1 time per minion line. That means your farm tool will ALWAYS be down the first time, you WILL miss cs. How do you win then? The jungler..... The jungler decides your lane, just like in top, for you or against you, in a LOT of matchups. Problem is if the jungler was good, he wouldnt be in low elo since jgs climb faster than all other rolls outside of maybe support.

Eons31 votes

{quoted}

Problem is certain champs cant do that. Brand cant mid lane because he cant wave clear thats how crutch it is to NOT have the waveclear broken. If neeko maxes her q yasuo caneat the root off cd and not care via lifesteal and neeko can never use her q for farming, if she maxes e(pointlessly) yasuo can windwall that. Minions crash every 30 seconds thats 1 time per minion line. That means your farm tool will ALWAYS be down the first time, you WILL miss cs. How do you win then? The jungler..... The jungler decides your lane, just like in top, for you or against you, in a LOT of matchups. Problem is if the jungler was good, he wouldnt be in low elo since jgs climb faster than all other rolls outside of maybe support.

also IE PD frozen Steraks mid gameor late game whatever you say, deaths dance, gargoyle stone plate(conquerer true damage ignores the debuff). Have fun bursting that ina teamfight.

Morioh Cho Radio2 votes

One thing.

item 3083

Rathar Dashing4 votes

item 3153

Bears Dont Care1 votes

You do not understand how conqueror works. The true damage is 20% of damage dealt converted. This means when you build armor it reduces the true armor being dealt by conqueror itself.

The only reason you are having issues is yasuos armor pen.

NepgearDesu5 votes

You don't understand how Conqueror works. If it converted 20% of damage dealt to true damage, it would effectively do nothing. Or does your health bar differentiate 100 HP lost from magical damage, and 100 HP lost from true damage? In its current iteration, Conqueror takes 20% of premitigation damage and makes it true damage. This is effectively 20% total armour pen, if you want to word it differently. It isn't! Check post of Rathar Dashing below.

Rathar Dashing2 votes

Well, to be fair, in that case it would potentially make the difference between proccing nullifying orb and hexdrinker/maw. It's also not quite the same thing as 20% armor pen. If you were dealing 100 damage to a 100 armor target, with conquerer you would deal 20 true damage and 40 physical damage. With 20% total armor pen, you would deal 55.5 physical damage. The difference becomes more apparent the more armor the target has, at 300 armor for instance, 100 physical damage becomes 20 true damage and 20 physical damage, while 20% armor pen would deal 29.4 physical damage.

NepgearDesu2 votes

I'm not sure where I got this idea of armour pen: looking at it, it's only true at 0% or 100% conversion/pen. I stand corrected, and will try to keep that in mind next time I spew nonsense.

As for nullifying orb and others, it is one interaction I hadn't thought of, perhaps because the few champions that hit me with Conqueror usually deal physical damage. Duly noted.

And thanks!

Rathar Dashing1 votes

Any time. [sona-playing]

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