My Talon Rework Idea

ChaddyFantome··12 votes·1,122 views

So my boi Silvester Talone Talon who never stops coming is a shoo-in for the big 6 in the Assassin Rework that has been hinted at heavily. Talon has been a champion that has been starved for a rework or proper update for a long time now so it stands to reason that people are not only excited but have come up with a plethora of ideas for what Riot could do with him.

So here are mine: First I wanna establish the goals i aimed to accomplish with these ideas.

  1. Preserve the key aspects of Talon's identity as a champion and even help pronounce them better.
  • His ability and affinity for manipulating both his vision of the enemy and his enemies vision of him. Talon's stealth and reveal are aspects of his kit that aren't fully utilized to express his character. He is a guy that should be about tracking down his targets and ambushing them and then getting away without being seen.
  • His affinity for capitalizing on Impaired targets. This is everywhere in his kit, and while very prominent isn't expressed in any meaningful way.. They are more just number checks in his current state.
  • His underdog prodigy street rat nature. Talon, unlike other assassins had no conventional training. He got by purely on his own self taught means, trying to get by in his harsh conditions, and despite that he proved to be even more deadly and formidable than the vast majority of the Noxian Assassin division. I personally feel his more hap hazard as well as his more improve escape methods as opposed to a simple one like other Assassins such as Zed or Leblanc helps cement this aspect of him and it should remain in his kit. However, this can be better pronounced by giving him more small ways that he has to use all together to get out of sticky situations, as opposed to hoping his one very unreliable way works out for him.
  1. Create more windows of counterplay to play around him, as well as make him more of a teamplayer.

There should be more ways for Talon to be dealt with other than not dying. When Talon goes in, he should feel like he did it right, not because he merely didn't have** the damagez.** and when he does something right, it should feel like ti was because he did it right for both parties.

Imo, Talon was already a most teamplayer of the assassins that currently exist, but now it will be more pronounced with unique utility and more visceral gameplay elements.

  1. Going along with the previous point, Talon should be given more ways to play with his opponent in order to make him less binary, and to give him more confirmation checks when he did something successfully, as well as when he does something wrong.

When Talon fucks up, it should feel like he did something wrong, not "I dont have enough damage."

Passive - Noxian Diplomacy After being movement impaired for 1 second, enemy champions become marked with Noxian Diplomacy. Basic Attacks against a marked champion that is movement impaired applies "Missing Blades".

Missing Blade: Marks the Target for 6 seconds, granting vision of them via a blood trail, dealing damage over time that increases with the targets Missing Health. Can be stacked up to 5 times. If the target is below 40% HP and has 3 stacks or more, they are also slowed for the duration. Duration refreshes every time Talon auto attacks said movement impaired target.

Talon enjoys Movespeed when moving towards champions marked with Missing Blade based on the amount of blades they are marked with.

Upon reaching 5 stacks, the target's vision radius is reduced for 1 seconds. (cannot be applied to the same target more than once every 8 seconds.

  • Context. it goes without saying that Talon's passive was gonna get a lot of work but in essence, I didn't really give him anything to wild or crazy. I took his old Q Passive and re-purposed it with his old passive to be more immediately noticeable, worthwhile and understandable for both talon and his opponent.

Instead of a mere 10% damage on Movement impaired targets, Talon's passive now functions similar to Jhin'x W passive, only instead of being marked by hits from teammates and snaring them, they are marked by movement impairing CC and get marked with Missing Blades, which keeps the spirit of the old passive while giving it more meaning and being something both his team, his enemies and himself can play around, as well as giving it a more interesting relationship with the rest of his kit.

Talon's Old Q passive was rather unremarkable, and while iconic to him, didn't do enough. Now, a part of his Innate Passive, it has a more prominent aspect in his kit. His ability to track his opponent via the blood trail is now more prominently pronounced with an MS boost when tailing them, and the actual bleed will now serve as an execute when targets are low, as a means of making it meaningful without simply making it simply apply more damage.

Based on what Talon does to targets with Missing Blades in them, Talon will be given different options but at the cost of others. This means that when Talon makes a choice, he is limited on what he can do, but he now has multiple avenues to deal with a situation.

This will be explained as we go through his spells.

Q - Shadow Blade Talon's next basic attack deals bonus damage. If the target is movement impaired, Talon enters Stealth for 1 second, slowing enemies in a small circle around him for by 99% for 0.25 second.

If the target is a large monster or Epic monster, Talon will lose a blade when he attacks, granting him Vision of the target for a 1 minute and 30 seconds and make the target unable to attack for 2 seconds.

  • Context This is Talon's new bread and butter, as I think riot always intended the spell to be. As is on live, at lower ranks The Cooldown on Talon's Q is moderate, but at higher levels it becomes very short. Not only does this give Talon a way more interesting PvP dynamic, but theoretically speaking, this will give him a lot more outplay potential at all point in the game, as well as room to be outplayed.

I moved his old E slow here, as I feel it has much more potential to be great if used on a more frequent basis, but only if Talon properly capitalizes and sets up the situation for it.

In lane, If Talon gets a slow, he can then Q someone for a clean trade without preventing the opponent from outright not being able to prevent it from happening, and also gives Talon the option of either retreating or following up afterwards. This also gives Talon a bit of scrap potential to get himself out of sticky situations mid to late game if played right, as now Talon has a way to temporarily aid his escape by giving him a bunch of "mini escapes" when he gets caught in a tight spot, but only if Talon successfully meets the conditions. Think almost Vayne Ult->tumble but less oppressive and harder to do.

If Talon properly Applies his Q on slowed enemy champions in succession, he can skirt around a team fight just a bit and potentially just enough to save himself, but would require it be played properly, as well as giving him a small amount of minor disruption to help his team out without simply being a damage dealer.

The mark on monsters is to give Talon a niche as a potential Jungler pick. This would give Talon a way to keep tabs on objectives in a way that isn't simply a ward, which i feel would make him very in valuable and give him a strategic niche. However, he'd have to apply it himself via melee range and would only be able to do it ones every given time, so he would have to predict and pick which objective he wants to keep tabs on. The aggro thing is just so he doesn't take damage for no reason when he marks the objective, and to help his jungle clear if he is picked as a Jungler.

W - Rake Talon sends a volley of Blades out in a cone in front of him, slowing The target and dealing Damage. The blades will consume Missing blades on each pass, dealing additional bonus damage depending on how many blades were in the target, and increasing the slow based on said amount. If the target is Vision impaired, no stacks will be consumed and the Vision reduction is refreshed.

  • Context His W is very iconic of the champion so I didn't think it needed much re-tweaking in how it functions. That said , i wanted it to have more interaction with the rest of his kit.

In a laning scenario, it can be used to close out a trade by dealing additional damage after Missing Blades have been stacked on the target, but this comes at the cost of Missing Blade stacks on said target. However. if Talon uses it on a Target that is vision impaired, which he can do by getting 3 stacks on his target, the stacks will not be consumed.

This gives Talon an ultimatum: Does he use W sooner for a bit more immediate extra damage at the cost of his stacks or does he wait it out a bit to keep the stacks on the target, and get a longer vision reduction on them?

Additionally, Talon now has to pick and choose not only when he wants to engage, but what kind of engagement he needs to make.

This also gives Talon's opponents more ways to play around his kit as well as opening up the window the opponent has to retaliate.

Additionally, this gives him a bit more (tho minor) team synergy with Quinn and Graves

E - Cutthroat Talon Blinks to target location enemy, interrupting channels and marks the target instantly with Noxian Diplomacy for 3 seconds. If the Target is Large or Epic Monster, his damage to the target is amplified by 25% for 3 seconds.

  • Context No need to change the name of the spell. Making it interrupt keeps the main utility of the spell from back when it had a silence without giving him back said silence. (and letting the name remain the same, so we can keep the pun), as well as perfectly befitting Talon's affinity for capitalizing on targets with impaired movement.

    I removed the scaling per point % Damage amp because it was honest holding Talon kit back and creates a lot of invisible power issues and a skewed scaling curve, and instead re-purposed it to at best help him in the jungle or capitalize on marked Objectives.

    Instead, It now keeps its initiation power from before without simply being an invisible damage check that keeps Talon from being strong until his last 5 levels with the weird power curve ti created.

    Since it instantly applies his passive, Talon will not have to worry about being completely team reliant and needing an enemy to proc his passive for him, while still being rewarded and encouraged for it.

    This is mostly here so Talon can still actually function, as otherwise, the kit would be counterproductive to itself.

Ultimate - R - Shadow Assault Active: Talon disperses A ring of Blades Around him and enters stealth, dealing damage on each pass of the blades. First cast applies a stack of missing Blade to all enemies hit. The second cast, all targets marked with Missing Blade have the blades removed from them, consuming them and going back to Talon, dealing additional damage based on the targets current Health based on the amount of blades in the target, removing the Vision Radius Debuff from them if they happen to be afflicted.

Passive: While Stealthed, Talon enjoys a 40% movement speed boost for 1.5/2./2.5 seconds

  • Context Ah yes, Talon's Ultimate. This change does several things.

It ties his ultimate together with the rest of his kit in a way that makes him have to choose what he wants to do with his passive, as well ties in well with how his kit already works. It forces Talon to give something up if used improperly in several different facets as well as rewards him for making the correct choice.

It follows through on Talon being a rather hap hazard guy with the way his kit works.

With that last stack of Missing Blade, Talon can potentially proc the bonuses of his passive if he sets it up VERY very well on several targets without making this his only viable scenario and making it something that while potentially useful isn't game breaking of game changing.

In essence, the spell will continue to have the same function it currently has, but now it forces Talon to hold out simply dumping all his spells on one person fast enough. as he now has to, ever so slightly open up a space to give a response window to his opponent via having to either stack his Passive a bit for good enough damage or letting the bleed run out as much as possible before using the second proc of his Ultimate to seal the deal. This also gives them a window to use item 3157 summoner 7 summoner 21 or whatever they have to try and eek out that bi of time, but also creates a fun dynamic(one i dare say is more interesting than even Zed's) where you then can attempt to wait out the Zhonyas timer before going all in with your ultimate, meaning both players have something to play around. This in addition to how his W functions means Talon has to play his game well for optimal output on top of making picks and choices.

The Passive is to let the MS from his Ult remain the same while not making the stealth from his Q too potent early on, giving him a steady power curve. The Speed boost at level 6 will be essentially the same.

As you put points in your Ult, the MS boost when you stealth from Q will become more potent.

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Overall Talon's base play pattern still persists. He will still be E>W>Q>R or E>auto>Q>W>R etc etc, but now he has to think about when he wants to use these spells, how much he wants to auto and in what order he wants to use his spells, as well as when he wants to use them. Additionally, he has a bit more tricks up his sleeves that let him just about make it out of situations of done right, and a new niche as a guy who's swooping in robbin' your objectives and keeping tabs on em.

His up front damage would have to be toned down of course, but his overall quick burst potential and viability will be better for it, as well as his play pattern more healthy and interesting for both parties involved.

Thoughts?

If some areas could use some adjustments, I'd very happily welcome ideas and suggestions.

26 Comments

Thresh 2 Fresh5 votes

I really like the change to the passive. It makes him feel like an assassin, tracking down his targets by their trail of blood. I Think it would be a great method of telling apart clones too, like telling th difference between Le blancs clone and Shaco's. Not sure how I feel about the vision impairment. That might be a bit much. I think the passive is really cool tho.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Thresh 2 Fresh,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5041EEkQ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-07-19T02:11:13.757+0000)

I really like the change to the passive. It makes him feel like an assassin, tracking down his targets by their trail of blood. I Think it would be a great method of telling apart clones too, like telling the difference between Le blancs clone and Shaco's. Not sure how I feel about the vision impairment. That might be a bit much. I think the passive is really cool tho.

To be fair, the blood trail thing and it's interaction with clones is already in the game. It just isn't implemented in a way where it sees much use or is well pronounced, with the way Talon's kit works atm.

But to my knowledge when Talon was designed, this element was always intended to be part of his core design. It just didn't pan out that way. ;P

As for Vision impairment, I suppose, but I am also not quite sure. When i made this, I knew that It would be the more contested thing in the kit tho, but I wanted to put something that was rewarding without being oppressive or just a straight damage boost so he had more team utility, as well as a thing to make W have to be used in more thoughtful ways.

Perhaps we can think of something else? ;P

Thresh 2 Fresh1 votes

Perhaps killing a target with max stack knives could reset his e cooldown? Resets are dangerous but it gives him more potential for escape or reengage. That is the only thing that I don't like about talon, he is all in or nothing. Unlike Lb or zed that have kits designed for escapes. Talon only has his jump and ulti invis + move speed. Also..would the blood trail act sort of like echos ulti? Seeing it trail behind the target based on where they were?

ChaddyFantome1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Thresh 2 Fresh,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5041EEkQ,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-19T04:25:07.429+0000)

Perhaps killing a target with max stack knives could reset his e cooldown? Resets are dangerous but it gives him more potential for escape or reengage. That is the only thing that I don't like about talon, he is all in or nothing. Unlike Lb or zed that have kits designed for escapes. Talon only has his jump and ulti invis + move speed.

The way i set it up now, Talon should be using the second half of his ultimate to escape, in tandem with his new Q to help him get that bit more he needs to get out.

While I agree Talon needs better escape methods, Zed and LB's more reliable and instantaneous retreat options don't fit Talon imo. His more impromptu "figure this shit out as we do it" kind of escape is kinda part of what make shim Unique in that regard, so i wanted to give him a way to do it without just giving him a Katarina/Kha'Zix copy/paste E, or Leblanc W/Zed ulti/W

Also..would the blood trail act sort of like echos ulti? Seeing it trail behind the target based on where they were?

The blood trail would work like it currently does. You would see it on the ground based exactly on where the enemy walks during the duration.

lccarus3 votes

I agree the passive has a bit too much power behind it but overall this sounds like a really cool design. Lots of kit synergy and play potential.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

I agree the passive has a bit too much power behind it but overall this sounds like a really cool design. Lots of kit synergy and play potential.

What part due you suggest be adjusted? Glad you like the overall idea tho.

lccarus2 votes

Well after a W+Q he applies a 6 second perma-slow as long as they are low health, plus gets vision, plus takes away theirs briefly) while increasing damage as they get lower. It just seems to have a lot of utility+dmg behind it since it also amplifies his ult heavily.

I'd say maybe reduce it from 6 second to 3 seconds. With his Q and passive and W his target will essentially never be moving at normal speed, seems kinda flora-Like in that they can't get away from you ever but if they fight you they die. And add a cool down to it of like 6 seconds, in combination with the vision debuff. So they have a 3 second window where the stacks don't wear off but the slow+vision reduction can't be reapplied. That way is damage potential remains but it adds windows of counter play to him if they survive his initial onslaught.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Well after a W+Q he applies a 6 second perma-slow as long as they are low health, plus gets vision, plus takes away theirs briefly) while increasing damage as they get lower. It just seems to have a lot of utility+dmg behind it since it also amplifies his ult heavily.

I'd say maybe reduce it from 6 second to 3 seconds. With his Q and passive and W his target will essentially never be moving at normal speed, seems kinda flora-Like in that they can't get away from you ever but if they fight you they die. And add a cool down to it of like 6 seconds, in combination with the vision debuff. So they have a 3 second window where the stacks don't wear off but the slow+vision reduction can't be reapplied. That way is damage potential remains but it adds windows of counter play to him if they survive his initial onslaught.

? W doesn't apply stacks of his passive. In fact, it consumes them.

lccarus1 votes

No but it slows them making him stacking 3 hits pretty instant. I just see this kit suffering from the same issues Fiora had. Heavy damage + stickyness + disengage. It might balance better if he had some cool downs on both parts of his passive to prevent from him perma-bleeding/slowing people.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

No but it slows them making him stacking 3 hits pretty instant. I just see this kit suffering from the same issues Fiora had. Heavy damage + stickyness + disengage. It might balance better if he had some cool downs on both parts of his passive to prevent from him perma-bleeding/slowing people.

I personally disagree. Talon's W slow only lasts 2 seconds anyway, since he'd have to space his attack pattern to auto-Q and then use the 1 second of stealth to re-position for the 3rd auto, but to be honest, the slow is more to give him more opportunities to stealth via Q, so perhaps we can come to a compromise?

How about, we remove the slow, but Q's Stealth conditions are changed in exchange for the slow on Bleed being removed?

lccarus1 votes

Just make it so if an enemy champ within 400 of talon has 3 stacks his Q stealths him.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Just make it so if an enemy champ within 400 of talon has 3 stacks his Q stealths him.

How is he gonna get those 3 stacks on said champ within 400, and then get to someone so he can auto them to proc his Q?

SouL1ess1 votes

{quoted}

What part due you suggest be adjusted? Glad you like the overall idea tho.

Just make the passive not do damage if other skills will consume it for damage anyway. Talon can keep the movement speed bonus; it can be a weaker MS bonus when the blades are on target, but when consumed Talon gets a stronger haste effect for a short duration.

I disagree with the Vision impairment mechanics on Talon, but that's just me.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Just make the passive not do damage if other skills will consume it for damage anyway. Talon can keep the movement speed bonus; it can be a weaker MS bonus when the blades are on target, but when consumed Talon gets a stronger haste effect for a short duration.

I disagree with the Vision impairment mechanics on Talon, but that's just me.

The mechanic with the stacks being consumed is so Talon has to be careful which order he uses his spells, and properly decide what he wants to do with them as opposed to merely clicking them all AFAP when he jumps on someone. If Talon wants to get stacks so he can execute with his ult, then using W later in the rotation would make him screw up. Additionally, If Talon wants to say , chase his target, using W would remove the stacks, thus removing his speed boost and prevent him from chasing. The damage on them would be comparable to his current Q bleed (meaning very little) anyway, so outside of them having like 80 HP left, it wouldn't be doing much damage on its own.

SouL1ess1 votes

{quoted}

The mechanic with the stacks being consumed is so Talon has to be careful which order he uses his spells, and properly decide what he wants to do with them as opposed to merely clicking them all AFAP when he jumps on someone. If Talon wants to get stacks so he can execute with his ult, then using W later in the rotation would make him screw up. Additionally, If Talon wants to say , chase his target, using W would remove the stacks, thus removing his speed boost and prevent him from chasing. The damage on them would be comparable to his current Q bleed (meaning very little) anyway, so outside of them having like 80 HP left, it wouldn't be doing much damage on its own.

But his current Q bleed has a 1.0/*Bonus AD in ratio, bringing the summed bonus AD ratio on Noxian Diplomacy to 2.3/*Bonus AD, which is one of the highest ratio in the game.

It still sounds counter intuitive for a stack to do damage AND have an utility aspect but is consumed to do more damage / gain another utility effect. They could just not do anything at all, and put more rewards into consuming the stacks instead.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

But his current Q bleed has a 1.0/*Bonus AD in ratio, bringing the summed bonus AD ratio on Noxian Diplomacy to 2.3/*Bonus AD, which is one of the highest ratio in the game.

First off, its Bonus AD instead of total. Second, you can't calc the AD ratio of it that way. Unlike say his W wich hits two times for a flat amount of scaling damage, you are lumping together an onhit with a weak Dot. The dot by itself is actually weak, being HP regen equivable on most champs.

More importantly tho is on my new proposed kit, they are not inter-connected at all.

It still sounds counter intuitive for a stack to do damage AND have an utility aspect but is consumed to do more damage / gain another utility effect. They could just not do anything at all, and put more rewards into consuming the stacks instead.

Well no. lemme explain it again for you. It does not to all of those things at once. Doing one comes at the cost of another. If Talon wants to get , say, the bonus damage on W, he has to it before he gets 5 stacks because then they can't be consumed by it. But if he wants the chase power, he then can't use his W because it would consumed them. If he wants the Execute on Ulti, he can't W either so he is left with just auto attacks in pursuit with the stacks, but stacking it to high means he wont be able to use his W anyway.

There is a lot of give and take here that i think is being ignored in favor of lumping all the actual options together in a bucket.

Additionally, the last thing we need is another homogenous 3-hit-proc stacking ability. There are actually already existing stack mechanics that provide utility in a similar manner, Daruis gets increased MS when chasing targets stacked with his passive now that I think about it, and gets a reset when killing a bloodied target with his W. Let us not forget its interaction with his ultimate.

Heck, Talon's existing Q is already a proc that provides utility, as well as Kayle Passive. And Black Cleaver stacks do exactly that where stacking them is done for the utility.

YuGiHo2 votes

You cant let him jungle, once you allow a assassin type champ access to the jungle riot likes to balance them in ways so that soon they can only be played in the jungle like nid or kha.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

You cant let him jungle, once you allow a assassin type champ access to the jungle riot likes to balance them in ways so that soon they can only be played in the jungle like nid or kha.

Zed came out fine. Same with LeeSin, Diana and Pantheon. And TBH, I wouldn't mind if Talon, (and the assassin class as a whole) were reworked to be primarily junglers. I've always been of the opinion that it makes them less "frustrating" and snowball-y.

Calabok1 votes

i would say remove his invisibility and that is it. Pure Balance.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

i would say remove his invisibility and that is it. Pure Balance.

Invisibility as in Stealth or invisibility as in Vision reduction? Because Stealth is like core to his identity as a champion.

Arakadia1 votes

Seems a little strong. He has vision reduction, lots of slows, and can stop an enemy from attacking. Doesn't give much room for the "attacked" target.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Seems a little strong. He has vision reduction, lots of slows, and can stop an enemy from attacking. Doesn't give much room for the "attacked" target.

I don't quite get the emboldened.

As for giving room to the attacked target, this new pattern forces talon to have to take more time to hit his target with auto attacks so that he can deal enough damage with his rotation. Its's actually a significant drop in his Burst rotations total output speed.

This gives then plenty of time to jump out of the situation or retaliate/disengage with spells without putting the situation completely in the opponents favor, while also putting the success of the encounter in the hands of both players.

If Talon rotates his spells and auto's in the correct sequence for the correct situation, Talon is rewarded. But If Talon bites off more than he can chew, it'll blow up in his face.

That said, I'd like to know which area's you think should be toned down. Please and thank you :)

Arakadia1 votes

On my original post I didn't bold it?

It just seems like a lot to handle. Lots of slows, vision reduction, granting him vision, AND stopping an enemy from attacking.

Also you should clarify what not being able to attack means. Does that mean basic attacks? Or spells? Or both?

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

On my original post I didn't bold it?

It just seems like a lot to handle. Lots of slows, vision reduction, granting him vision, AND stopping an enemy from attacking.

Also you should clarify what not being able to attack means. Does that mean basic attacks? Or spells? Or both?

No._ I_ emboldedned the part That doesn't make sense. And Im gonna do it again.

In fact, lemme sub quote it

stopping an enemy from attacking.

Where in my proposed kit did I put this ? That would be op.

Arakadia1 votes

If the target is a large monster or Epic monster, Talon will lose a blade when he attacks, granting him Vision of the target for a 1 minute and 30 seconds and make the target unable to attack for 2 seconds.

I see! My bad, I forgot it was only against monsters.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

I see! My bad, I forgot it was only against monsters.

Oh, no problem, lol.

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