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"Fuck the veterans of this community"

LifeCyclesTWA··6 votes·1,243 views

said Riot when they reworked Ryze, Trist, Veigar, and Zilean.

I experienced dodge and League of Sunfires alright? I remember when Master Yi's Alpha Strike was his ultimate. I was there to see this goddamn game grow.

I care about the preservation of champions that are not broken from 2009-2010.

I agree WW was broken. I agree Poppy needs a rework. But why rework Ashe when every other thread is a bitch-post about Kalista or Jinx? Is she broken? OP? Or do you just not give a fuck?

Great job on the Trist rework, btw. She is one of the least popular champions in the game, the least popular is Zilean... WHO you also reworked! Because why? Because fuck the veterans, thats why. There were a lot more glaring issues to this game then that fucking OP hardest-carry-in-the-game Zilean, right?

And I know Mordekaiser is coming up, this is a huge fuck you. He is not played because he has no CC or mobility, unless you plan on changing that no one is going to give a fuck that you reworking him aside from the veterans you are fucking over. By the way, if you give him mobility or CC you are going to need to take away either some/all of his damage, his tankiness, or both to compensate. If you do that, then fuck you. He has above a 50% winrate, why fix what isn't broken?

Because fuck the veterans, that is why.

EDIT: How do other veterans feel about the changes, by the way? When I say veterans, I mean people there were around when Xin Zhao was released at the very least.

33 Comments

Drunk Rummate6 votes

There are very few changes Riot has made that I disagree with. The game is getting more interactive and more fun to play from my perspective. I'm really upset about the ARAM changes actually, but I have faith that they will get resolved just like every other issue has been.

LifeCyclesTWA2 votes

To me, I wish they would preserve some of their old champs. Atleast for nostalgia. Again, reworking Morde won't do anything to change his popularity unless its Sion-level.... but he doesn't need that kind of change. He is sitting at ~50% winrate.

About ARAM, I agree. I could have written an essay about how bad that was. We are just going to have to go back to doing ARAM in custom games like the good ol' days lmao

Drunk Rummate1 votes

Probably true regarding Morde. I think a Sion level rework for him would certainly be cool - the major issues with the champ is that he's been left behind mechanically in a game that's getting much deeper in that respect. With champions like Yasuo, Azir, and Kalista, where does Mordekaiser fit in? He's certainly unique, but he lacks a lot of outplay potential like other champions have. Honestly it's not worth touching him unless they want to change him from the ground up.

Zarxis4 votes

No, Riot said "fuck the veterans of this community" when they scrapped the lore.

Very Hard Engage3 votes

riot doesnt like it when a zilean support just walks on over and bombs their new shiny kalista mobility 2x over and forces her out of lane. riot doesnt like it when veigar stuns kalista and prevents her infinite chase on our adc. riot really doesnt like it trist can 1v1 kalista thanks to superb burst damage and riot hates it when a champion who was designed to jungle actually does well in the jungle and goes and ganks their kalista in the bot lane when he reaches level 6 before shes does! why wouldn't riot want people to spend 10$ on the game to buy their new OP champion.

LifeCyclesTWA2 votes

I can't believe I forgot to mention Veigar, that should be a crime. True OG right there. Upvoted for days

Marthian1 votes

Veigar had a toxic kit before his rework. If two click nukes wasn't enough, his instant stun cage had no counterplay 95% of the time. If you were within stun cage range, he'd just place it on top of you and bam, no chance to react.

And honestly, Veigar is still pretty good. Has a much better earlier game than he did before. Before it was farm or poke for nothing, now you can either farm well or farm and get pokes off. His stun cage has a lot more counterplay than it did before.

Very Hard Engage1 votes

{quoted}

Veigar had a toxic kit before his rework. If two click nukes wasn't enough, his instant stun cage had no counterplay 95% of the time. If you were within stun cage range, he'd just place it on top of you and bam, no chance to react.

And honestly, Veigar is still pretty good. Has a much better earlier game than he did before. Before it was farm or poke for nothing, now you can either farm well or farm and get pokes off. His stun cage has a lot more counterplay than it did before.

RIP merc treds, banshees veil, QSS, merc scimitar, guardian angel, sorry, none of you guys are items which completely undermineded a champion with 47% win rate and a narrow sliver of a skill shot stun on a 18s CD.

and then theres the general lack of sustain and incredible low health pool so anyone who could take the burst (anyone who built a health item) or had more than 2000hp in general would turn around, walk up to veigar, and tap him, and it was over, you nulified everything old veigar was capable of just by taking his full combo and living, which wasn't hard to do pre 200+ farm. (sub 37~minutes)

or just a spear/jayce shot and suddenly hes already at 1/3rd his health pool.

veigar is dead, he can NOT 1v1 or playmake, he is TEAM DEPENDENT now more than ever.

BuCkeT SeiZureS1 votes

The rework for veigar was a success from a balance standpoint. But he honestly feels worse to play as than he did before. His kit is 4 decent abilities that are tacked together. They don't form a cohesive kit. I mained him since I started league back in season 2. And I can tell he is still usable. But he is boring and feels clunky, now. I wish Riot would listen to the ideas thrown around, because they did keep the essence of veigar. The people that play him now are old school mains like myself that don't want to let him go, no matter how boring he is.

ModWulf Helhammer3 votes

People really need to stop thinking Riot has some kind of special treatment for Kalista. Yes, she can be annoying to deal with, but that does not mean that it is impossible. As a matter of fact, Kalista has nerfs on the PBE right now, so stop complaining

Very Hard Engage1 votes

{quoted}

People really need to stop thinking Riot has some kind of special treatment for Kalista. Yes, she can be annoying to deal with, but that does not mean that it is impossible. As a matter of fact, Kalista has nerfs on the PBE right now, so stop complaining

oh im sorry, i hated on your hyper mobility playmaking champion, guess older champions with targeted abilities and sub 50% win rates DESERVE TO BE NERFED INTO THE GROUND

ModWulf Helhammer2 votes

I don't even have Kalista, nor have I ever even played her. In fact, my main ADCs are Quinn and Ashe. I'll acknowledge Tristana is a little weak, but there really haven't been too many champions that have been "nerfed into the ground" as you so say.

AkabaneKun1 votes

I used to main skarner used to...

Mathbalnase1 votes

There've been complaints about how unsatisfying Ashe feels (particularly with regards to the rise of The League of Mobility Creep) for as long as I've been paying attention to the community (which is a little over 3 seasons, now). While she wouldn't be a top priority if I was in charge of Riot's Champion Rework division, she would definitely be on my list.

LifeCyclesTWA1 votes

Taken from NERFPLZ.LOL

"Ashe [Tier 1 ADC] - With her rework coming up soon, it's interesting to note that she's actually doing very well in solo queue. With nerfs on both Jinx and Graves (mostly Graves), the danger of her getting instantly burst down is lower than ever, allowing her strong poke damage to be fully realized in lane."

She is a solid pick in solo queue, and an even better pick in team 5v5s. She packs so much utility and, like Varus, has the potential to start/win a team fight as an ADC with her ult. Varus has the same issue as Ashe mobility-wise, but worse in my opinion. But that is what happens when you are the only ADCs capable of initiating teamfights.

Mathbalnase2 votes

See above re: 'unsatisfying', 'feels' What you will not see above: 'underpowered'

LifeCyclesTWA1 votes

See above re: 'ADC', 'initiating' What you will not see above: 'underpowered'

Don't turn this into an OP vs UP debate, I know damn well what you meant jackass. She is a utility carry, not some hyper-carrying monster. Sorry she doesn't "feels" like Vayne.

Mathbalnase1 votes

The fact that she can be a 'solid pick' in certain environments, that she can initiate while still being an ADC, that she packs a lot of utility relative to her role, or that others share similar limitarions all have no bearing on the fact that many, many players have expressed over the years that she feels unsatisfying.

LifeCyclesTWA1 votes

Many, many players need to play more satisfying carries such as Kalista, Vayne, and Jinx.

If people have a problem with a champion, why complain? Why not get the fuck over it and play someone else. If its not broken, don't fix it. She has been the go-to champion for people learning the ADC position ever since the game was created. People sure as hell weren't saying Ashe was "unsatisfying" in season 1, so the bitchers and complainers are from this spoiled generation of "WE NEED MOBILITY AND INSTA-PWN ABILITIES" That is why Vayne, Kalista, Draven, and Jinx are all top 10 most popular champions in the game and are more popular than Corki, Ashe, Trist, and Sivir. That is why Zed, Yasuo, and Katarina are in the top 10 most popular champions in the game. Everyone wants burst damage or crazy hyper-carry potential.

The fuckwads that started playing this game s2 and on don't care about utility. That is why we now have trinkets in this game. That is why they made sightstones in season 3. That is why we are reworking champions that have no need whatsoever to be fucked with.

That is why they HATE the tank meta. Tanks counter burst.

Marthian1 votes

The f***wads that started playing this game s2 and on don't care about utility. That is why we now have trinkets in this game. That is why they made sightstones in season 3.

Because not being to build anything at all as a support was fun. /sarcasm I played both before and after they introduced both trinkets and SSand it has made support a lot more easier and now that you can actually build items and not be a ward "bitch" you can actually do something in team fights. From the looks of your account, you were not around when having to buy 10+ wards and never finish an item was almost standard on supports. That alone made almost no one want to play support.

No the reason why people hate the tank meta is because said tanks are having such an easy time killing carries with no damage investment while at the same time being nigh unkillable. Tanks have always countered burst, but they have never had an easy time killing people like they do now.

LifeCyclesTWA1 votes

Contrary to what you believe, this is not my main account. I have rather extreme opinions and would rather express them with a smurf account. That said, I have been playing since February 2010. Before season 1 even started. Back in the days you were speaking of you could buy multiple gp/5 items though, but I agree the changes as a whole have been better for the support community, which also has enforced the tank meta. You see, back before S1 and during S1 traditional supports such as Soraka were popular. Now, because supports get more gold to spend, it has allowed many other unconventional supports play the role and succeed. That is awesome, but at the same time that is one more tank/peeler you have to deal with due to the amount of extra gold supports have to play with these days. In S1 you didn't have to worry about the badass support Leona, the biggest issue you'd ever have is with Alistar when he popped his ultimate.

However, by utility, I am speaking of Ashe's ability to initiate team fights via her global hard CC and can show parts of the map. No other ADC comes close to thise utility. I wasn't referring to supports, I actually like how support is actually fun to play these days, especially compared to the past.

When you say the people hate the tank meta because tanks have no problem killing carries while carries have trouble killing tanks, that is weird. The tank meta used to be much worse even before/during S1. Do you not remember the unkillable Shen? Do you not remember tank Mordekaiser (yes, he used to be built full-on tank before he had AP ratios)? Do you not remember Force of Nature? Do you not remember how strong Warmogs and FoN were together? Do you not remember Atma's Impaler, which gave you 2% (later reduced to 1.5%) if you max health as damage? Back then, there weren't many champions that did % based damage. Back then, the number of beastly auto-attackers was limited. You needed Madred's Bloodrazors to kill a high hp tank, otherwise you were screwed. You know where spin-to-win came from? Garen, and you should have seen him during the League of Cleavers era of LoL because he had a fuckload of health and ripped through you like butter. How about League of Sunfires? Garen with a few Sunfire capes would just spin all over you team and kill em all. Stealth champions would stand next to you and you'd just die.

I would say this "tank meta" is nothing compared to what we've seen in the past and is a result of people having un-diverse teams. Tanks kill carries because carries don't build defensive items. Even with items, the base damage from spells and whatnot at max-rank put out a solid amount of damage. Carries have trouble killing tanks because tanks are built to survive. You want to end the tank meta? Stop having teams with 3-4 AD champions. If you had an even split of AP and AD damage the tanks wouldn't be able to stop you. Instead, people roll with 3-4 AD champions, tanks stack armor, team kills the only AP champion on the other team during the teamfight, now the tank that stacked armor is indestructible.

This isn't a "tank meta". This is a meta full of retards that play Yasuo and Zed mid because they think they are Bjerguson and don't understand that going AD mid fucks their team over unless your team comp compensates for it elsewhere.

Extreme Troller1 votes

lol veteran. veretans had 18years old in 2009, now they are 24years, have a wife and a family. No veterans play lol anymore. Lol is a kiddy game for kids. if you are a veteran and still play lol i feel really bad for you.

LifeCyclesTWA1 votes

Don't feel bad for me, I work 2 weeks on 2 weeks off and make 6 figures a year at the young age of 21. You know why? Because I am an intelligent human being who is not afraid to state his opinion. I also know how to write complete sentences and how grammar works, you should try doing the same. Otherwise, "i feel really bad for you"

Strawberrycocoa1 votes

As the game has grown more micro-managey and focusing on ability interactions, the older design philosophies can lose a lot of interest and replay potential.

and I like Tristana's new E, it amps up her AOE power drastically.

R1101 votes

What do you think is wrong with the Ashe rework? Personally I feel it's pretty well done, the ult is largely the same, E has become cooler, W is also largely the same, Q is more interesting than a toggle, passive has a system of non-RNG crits. I like the changes when I look at just what the kit does. She might become a bit weaker though because the attackspeed/lvl has been hit and I don't know how much the attackspeed steroid is going to offset that.

Edit: I also think Tristana is more fun to play now. Before I didn't really like playing her but picked her sometimes because she was OP, not because it was fun.

LifeCyclesTWA1 votes

The issue I have with it is that she is actually one of the strongest ADCs in the game right now both in solo queue and in team 5v5s

"Ashe [Tier 1 ADC] - With her rework coming up soon, it's interesting to note that she's actually doing very well in solo queue. With nerfs on both Jinx and Graves (mostly Graves), the danger of her getting instantly burst down is lower than ever, allowing her strong poke damage to be fully realized in lane."

and I feel as though they are changing her just for the hell of it. Right now, Ashe is in a great spot, why risk screwing that up? No way they will get this big a rework done correctly on the first try either. It will be hell balancing her, and quite frankly I do not trust the balance team because they will then nerf her in the wrong areas too hard and it becomes this whole crapfest when we could have just left that classic, iconic champion that was in a great spot alone.

Jaygo411 votes

The most dangerous phrase in the English language is:

"We've always done it this way."

Deal with it

LifeCyclesTWA1 votes

I hope you don't stick around LoL for as long as I have, all your favorite characters will get overhauled/reworked 2-3 times each and everyday some random kid who has no idea what he is talking about is going to be crying for Riot to nerf your favorite champion(s).

My advice to you, never get attached to or have a favorite champion, because Riot will fuck find a way to fuck it up in due time.

Sightless661 votes

But why rework Ashe when every other thread is a bitch-post about Kalista or Jinx?

People complain a lot about how weak and pitiful she feels (even if she isn't). So many people have complained about how terrible her passive feels, how mediocre hawkshot is, and just in general how uninteresting her current design is.

Kalista and Jinx are strong. That's a numerical problem. Ashe has a design problem. She feels terrible even when she's numerically decent. That's why she's getting a rework.

There were a lot more glaring issues to this game then that fucking OP hardest-carry-in-the-game Zilean, right?

He wasn't reworked because he was OP. He was reworked because he sucked and was ungodly boring. He needs more work now, but it should be more reworking, not any return to that stupid design he had. Trist is similar, except she's just numerically underpowered. That is a fixable problem, and they are buffing her. Her current design is better than her old design.

By the way, if you give him mobility or CC

What, that thing they already said multiple times they expressly wouldn't do? Seriuosly, they said the movement speed added to his W pushed the mobility they wanted to give him. You're getting worked up about something that hasn't happened, and they've said won't happen. I don't think he's even a particularly high priority rework right now. They had that list of things they were reworking a while ago, and he wasn't high up it.

How do other veterans feel about the changes, by the way?

Generally good. I like the direction of the good majority of their reworks, and while a few have fallen short (I think Veigar's, Skarner's and Gangplank's long ago failed to create interesting gameplay), most end up very appealing. I don't like how they have a bad habit of being way, way too overcautious with the numbers when buffing certain reworks up to a strong state, but that's a problem I have with their balancing in general, not with the design of the reworks.

LifeCyclesTWA1 votes

I can agree with the points you made, I see what you're saying however:

  1. I hope they manage to find a way to keep the numbers near the same while still being able to make her gameplay much more fluid/gratifying then. Although personally, I always felt as though Ashe was the funnest carry to play. Nothing felt better to me as an ADC than successfully landed my ult on the enemy team and seeing my team jump on them for the win.

  2. I have to disagree with the Zilean being boring part. One of my close friends was a Zilean main and she wasn't particularly fond of the rework to say the least lmao. idk what it was about Zilean she enjoyed so much, but I highly doubt she was the only one. I heard that Riot believed Zilean was "toxic" because his ability to take away kills from opponents, I read somewhere they said that, "he made the game feel less gratifying, and wasn't fun to play against."

  3. I am very aware, I am just sick of all these Mordekaiser threads popping up. Its my fault, I started this Mordekaiser thing by making so many threads about him this past week, but I'm sick of players saying "Rework him! He does nothing and has no CC or mobility! Rework!" Its horrid.

  4. And yeah, I feel much the same as you. My issue is mostly with their balancing team, I know eventually Mordekaiser (my main) will be changed and my doubts in the balance department make me not look forward to it. I don't like the idea of the reworks, but when they happen I don't mind them too much. They have been keeping the identities of these champions, for the most part, and I hope they continue to do so. I don't want to see my favorite champ get Sion'd though. I feel like they just replaced Sion with another champion. I like new Sion, but I miss old Sion.

Sightless661 votes

Nothing felt better to me as an ADC than successfully landed my ult on the enemy team and seeing my team jump on them for the win.

I like Ashe too, but there are some parts of her kit that I don't like (her passive, her E, even the boring way her Q slow is applied). The parts I do like, such as the ultimate and the permaslow, aren't being significantly changed. The parts I don't like are the parts seeing changes. It feels much better to use. I have a lot more fun with this kit than with live Ashe.

I'm not too worried about the balance of it either. They generally do ok with ADC balance, and she doesn't have any really unique new mechanic (like Trist's E) that Riot's balance team can be scared about. Her playstyle isn't majorly modified either, so they can't fall back on the "people might still be learning her" excuse.

I have to disagree with the Zilean being boring part. One of my close friends was a Zilean main and she wasn't particularly fond of the rework to say the least lmao.

There is someone who is unhappy with literally every change. Every piece of bad design that has ever existed in this game has a fan. I know people who love Poppy right now and think she is a perfectly designed champion. It's an opinion, but it's an opinion very few people hold.

When I say he's boring, what I should say is that more people found Zilean incredibly boring to play or play against than found him interesting, despite him having some unique aspects to his kit. The death prevention ultimate is a cool concept, and the self-cooldown modification and and the E can be cool too, but they overshadowed by how important that boring Q was to his gameplay. Zilean was interesting at the stages of the game where you could finally start ignoring the Q and using your other abilities. I loved that part of Zilean. I just rarely got to use it because of how overshadowed it was by the dull part of his kit.

I heard that Riot believed Zilean was "toxic" because his ability to take away kills from opponents,

That was a long time ago, and they went back on that position. The reason he got reworked was because of the bombs and the permaslow. The targeted bombs was incredibly annoying to lane against, and he could achieve a high value permaslow on single targets. They came up with the idea that the bombs would be more interesting if they could be given more power at the cost of making it a skillshot (which was a good idea), and that they could make the E more interesting by making it higher value for a shorter period of time (which didn't work, because the soft caps for speed boosts and the hard caps for slows make a 99% speed boost not much better than a 55% speed boost). They're still being too cautious with him.

I know eventually Mordekaiser (my main) will be changed and my doubts in the balance department make me not look forward to it.

Understandable. If he does get reworked, it is likely he will spend up to a year in an unbalanced state. Not really anything comforting to say about that.

Rand0mH3r0X1 votes

You're not even level 30? How do you know the perception that veteran players have?

LifeCyclesTWA1 votes

This is one of multiple accounts. I've been playing since February 2010.

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