Why does a Supertank with late game scaling fall off so hard?

Valhalla Rising·Apr 16, 2016·60 votes·6,310 views

If you haven't guessed it by now, I'm referring to

His early game is a force to be feared, his mid game is not the worst, but when late game hits and everything is moving at light speed he becomes extremely ignorable :(

All that health stacked, just to get ignored lol.

I think the biggest reason is his Q takes a full second to get the knock up which is his only hard cc(and reason to fear him), aside from his ult which is really easy to miss unless standing directly next to the target.

Maybe someone can make sense of this for me?

138 Comments

morris1Apr 16, 201627 votes

He is too fair of a champion, the fairest in the game may I say, with little reward at all; so much so that all of his abilities to an extent outplay Sion himself against a good enemy.

KetiApr 16, 201614 votes

sion is a top tier top laner in solo queue right now.

DJ S0NAApr 16, 20164 votes

No it's not

KetiApr 16, 201619 votes

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend&roleSort=Top

3rd highest winrate in plat+

Eevee In A JarApr 16, 20169 votes

Yeah but look at the pick %. Way too low to call it a top tier pick isn't it? Judging from these statistics, you can say for certain what's going on here is Sion works with and against specific comps or laning match ups. His kit is powerful but due to the direction of the game emphasizing mobility, it is difficult to make use of Sion's kit. So in the rare instances he's been picked it's been working to decent effect but if someone has nearly triple the pick rate as Sion and nearly similar in win %, wouldn't that be more top tier pick?

KetiApr 16, 20166 votes

his playrate is not much lower than a lot of the rest of the top 10, and from anecdotal experience in mid diamond I see him a ton and he's basically unstoppable. However with grasp/corrupting pot nerfs he'll probably end up in a pretty balanced spot.

GayFluffyUnicornApr 16, 20161 votes

I can confirm that. Never played against reworked Sion in lane before. Hell is that guy OP xD Even as Voli, i had a hard time dealing with him.
Even though i would've liked to know who would win if our junglers didn't decide this match up. Voli or Sion?

My Waifu VanillaApr 16, 20162 votes

VolI probably. If he ever goes to Q you can just flip him and stop it and then he can't really fight you. Sion has some of the lowest base HP in the game so you should be able to bully him somewhat easily (especially after 6 when you do hybrid damage).

JasiwelApr 16, 20164 votes

He mostly has a "Garen effect" where he ends up eating so much poke just trying to do his job that he ends up flat no matter how fed he is in contrast to other fed champions.

That being said, I'd argue he is in a much better spot than Garen and can provide a lot more utility to his team. It's not even that he's "bad" late game, it's that he plateau's.

XonraApr 16, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moraru Maurice,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4ww3ABZf,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-04-16T15:06:44.516+0000)

He is too fair of a champion, the fairest in the game may I say, with little reward at all; so much so that all of his abilities to an extent outplay Sion himself against a good enemy.

I think this is a much better way to describe him than what I attempted.

NarasimhaApr 16, 201626 votes

Infinite scaling =/= strong late game.

Just look at Nasus.

charcharmunroApr 16, 201631 votes

Nasus is mid-lategame, correct? Because during late-game, he gets melted quite fast regardless of tankiness and is easily kited.

morris1Apr 16, 20163 votes

Correct, and even if he decides to teamfight he needs a team with a lot of engage potential and hard crowd control designed around him in order to not be kited and focused to death.

kile147Apr 16, 20167 votes

Nasus basically has power spikes throughout the game, with the last one being very difficult to reach. These are all also dependent on hitting the spikes at the right time.

Spike 1: Nasus has good enough DPS he can actually fight the enemy laner, though maybe not win. (~100 stacks) Spike 2: Nasus can 1v1 or even 1v2 most champs (~300 stacks) Spike 3: Nasus can 2 shot enemy carries (~600 stacks) Spike 4: Nasus can 1 shot enemy carries (~1000+ stacks)

The difficulty is getting from 3 to 4, because the ADC will usually build some sort of defensive item in that timeframe as well as maybe a QSS, meaning that you need a lot more stacks for the damage, and you still may need to flash onto them in order to get the kill. The reason he is seen as a mid-late game champs is that is about when he hits his 3rd spike, after which it takes forever to reach spike 4 and the game usually ends before that.

SpoofghoulApr 17, 20162 votes

But with sion its like

you reached 800 stacks ur an average tank

you reached 10000000 stacks aaand no wont matter Vayne item 3153

charcharmunroApr 17, 20161 votes

I mean, he needs to get 700 health from the W passive to have equal "base health" to Alistar, but Ali's got loads of base health. 2.2k is the... "Top-end" of most tanks for base health, so Sion only needs 500-ish, which is what I average getting. It's odd how it's worked out, though.

SpoofghoulApr 17, 20161 votes

dont skip the base armor man

Whut Thuh Apr 17, 20161 votes

.... Nasus has probobly the top 3 late games of all times. with 350-450 stacks at 50 mins he becoms a 2 shot superpushing unkillable machine that will take your nexus towers before you can say susan

Ninjaa003Apr 17, 20162 votes

{quoted}

with 350-450 stacks at 50 mins

I play with a Nasus main all the time, and if he had only 350-450 stacks at 50 minutes, I'd say he was having a terrible game.

He typically has that much or more at around 20 minutes, unless he's had a bad time in lane.

Whut Thuh Apr 17, 20161 votes

well i guess im a bronze pleb then lol. it feels like i always end up in lanes with garen and teemo when i play nasus

YCitizenSnipsYApr 16, 20162 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Nasus

So thats why his win rate spikes the highest after 40 minutes, because of his not strong late game.

Jungle Lux GodApr 16, 201611 votes

I personally feel like Sion's power curve is a bit out of whack. Champions with infinite scaling like his should be weak early and get stronger as the game progresses, but Sion's power curve is just the opposite: strong early but falls off.

That said, Sion isn't completely ignorable in the later stages of the game. Even if you don't land your Q it's still an extremely powerful zoning tool while you are charging it while his W also creates a threat around him that forces the enemy team to attack him, which is exactly what Sion wants his opponents to do.

charcharmunroApr 16, 20162 votes

Well, let's look at other champions with infinite scaling. The only one who really fits the "really weak early, monstrous late" is Veigar. Nasus eventually falls off, but Veigar just keeps becoming more of a threat. Sion is early-game because of how much wave control he can have, and late-game that translates poorly into teamfights. If he's against somebody who can't easily interrupt his Q, he's capable of zoning them out SO much, but not so much late-game, because at best he can just draw some fire unless he wombos/cheeses a Q/ult. Kindred is early-game because of high base damages allowing early ganking to actually work so they can get stacks, but they only have any presence late-game with stacks, and even then they're mostly good for the ult. Bard and Thresh are supports, though Bard does actually have mid-late game going on, but his infinite stacking isn't quite as good as Veigar, because it eventually reaches a point where it... Only gives a bit more damage. Thresh is just utility incarnate, so his stacking means little.

Eevee In A JarApr 16, 20162 votes

What you say is interesting though as you'd expect champs with extremely powerful early should not scale that hard into late as well. AKA Draven, Jhin, MF, or champs like Darius. Why they were given actual late game scaling I have no idea. If you give someone early game power, the best way to balance such a thing is by feast or famine at least with assassins mostly. You're supposed to be rewarded for capitalizing on your early strength or punished for not taking advantage of your early strength thus slowly fading. That's why Lee falling off makes sense. That's why people are OK with his early game being so strong. But you have so many early game powerhouses (granted not as good as Lee) that scale so hard into the late game it makes 0 sense.

AnagsApr 16, 20168 votes

For one thing Sion is fine right now. Why does he fall off. It's basically because of his kit. Only his shield scales. It's not some crazy damage scaling and health is easily shredded. Then realize sion functions best in lane with minions.

Tank items are strongest early to mid game. In a team fight your q is very likely to be interuppted, and if you miss your ult that could mean losing a fight which could decide the game. Also his E isnt as good without minions around.

He is just easier to mess up end game than other tanks imo but he's also more fun to play I think. And in no way does he need changes. He is fine right now.

HongChongDongApr 16, 20164 votes

Because his kit was made pretty poorly. his CC is very poorly made and he has no mobility outside of his ult so even with his super tankiness he gets shredded all the same.

YumaS2AstralApr 16, 20167 votes

{quoted}

Because his kit was made pretty poorly. his CC is very poorly made and he has no mobility outside of his ult so even with his super tankiness he gets shredded all the same.

at least he is better designed than his old self

DryditchApr 16, 20164 votes

You take that back! Pressing R and winning teamfights is what good champion designs do, RIGHT? (Rito Plsd give us back Cannibalism)

But in all seriousness, new Sion feels pretty shitty for the amount of effort you have to put in to play him well past the 15-20 minute mark.

RalanrApr 16, 20161 votes

Not if you like putting in that effort.

DryditchApr 16, 20163 votes

I quite enjoy putting in effort on champions where counterplay is not "walk out of this area while i'm completely immobile and then kite me for days because my shield gets popped easily and half my damage is gone"

RalanrApr 16, 20161 votes

Popped easily? You must not be building health then. I've blocked all four of Jhin's ult bullets and still had shield to spare.

DryditchApr 16, 20162 votes

Was he like... 0/13/2, and had you finished your build? Four Jhin bullets is enough to pretty much 100-0 a full build Zac.

I've had Sion shield get popped by a single Gangplank barrel when I was 2/0 in lane against him.

KynamiApr 16, 20162 votes

Jhin's ult is effectively an execute because of 2% scaling per 1% missing health of opponent hit. The higher your health is the less damage it does. If you were at full health and popped the shield up mid game before the ADC gets all his items... yeah Jhin's ult ends up being the equivalent of bouncing a few peanuts off your head because of health scaling and full armor mitigation also applying to said shield.

chide da junglerApr 16, 20164 votes

Because Riot blessed ADCs with an item for every circumstance. There is an item that gives you armor pen AND it gives bonus dmg vs high health targets.... I mean really wtf is that. They might as well of called it "the thing that beats tanks lategame"

OrangesilkApr 16, 20162 votes

Right now actually, one of the main problems in the game is that that item just isn't enough to deal with bruisers.

Fizz Ekko item 3068 item 3025

This is only a thing because Armor Pen options are a miserable thing.

La BarbotteApr 16, 20163 votes

because hes.....so.......fucking.......slooooow.... all your spells feel like they take forever to use while everyone and their grandma run at the speed of sound and have 14 dashes 2 blinks and 256 cc

AnomanderApr 16, 20163 votes

Maybe because a sneeze interrupts 60% of his damage?

ShonjlApr 17, 20163 votes

The problem with Sion is mainly 1 thing. He is a CC heavy tank, which requires another CC tank to be good. Any other CC tank, Braum, Leona, Naut, don't need help to do their share. Sion needs help to land all his CC since he isn't likely to easily land any of them if his Q doesn't land.

ZT XperimentorApr 16, 20162 votes

Two champions that immediately come to mind that counter him are fiora & vayne due to free true damage scaling off max health; though several more can burst him down easily because they still have max health damage (magic or physical) in their kits (ekko, kogmaw, fizz, leesin, ext).

Not to mention when riot thought it was a great idea to buff carries (the only class that hasn't be replacable since season 1), they got massive item boosts to take down tanks. Blade of the ruined king & liandry's torment are still there along with the void staff; but the last whisper now builds into two items; lord dominik's regards (+15 physical damage to higher health targets, as if spamming critials wasn't enough), & mortal reminder (cuts all healing by half for 5 seconds with any physical damage). The rapid fire cannon gives movement speed, and also allows them to poke from farther away, in a few cases off screen; the changed phantom dancer still gives moment speed, but doubles it when close to enemies, making their kiting easier than ever.

Also riot's snowballing more or less just puts tanks behind since they can't farm as fast; meaning they'll become items behind their fighter/assassin opponent. With games lasting 15~20 minutes, tanks rarely have time to catch up at all.

If riot would fix assassins & carries abusing tank items (like the ice gauntlet & sterak's gage) properly; tanks might have some survivability. I'm hoping their mage overhaul & whenever they get to tanks, makes them relevant again; games are boring with nothing but carries & assassins.

The DeckownerApr 16, 20162 votes

the counterplay of sion has no counter play, that is why.

his q can be inturrupted, his shied dmg can be destroyed, his e can be dodged his ult can be dodged. and there is literally nothing sion can do to that, doesnt matter how well u aim the counterplay is simply uncounterable.

Tis a nice dayApr 16, 20162 votes

Think of it this way.

If sion DIDN'T have infinite health scaling, he'd fall off even harder.

RalanrApr 16, 20162 votes

He'd probably be buffed to compensate for it. Like having a higher base health and scaling in the game.

GaleWinUnleashedApr 16, 20162 votes

He doesn't have late-game scaling. He has scaling that makes it so he doesn't fall off as hard as he could.

It's similar to how Tristana and Gnar both get increased attack range as they level. Sion's health scaling is more comparable to Gnar's range increase than Tristana's; it's there to make him go from "bad" to "less bad" rather than "normal" to "best in the game".

XonraApr 16, 20162 votes

He doesn't actually have late game scaling, that is the issue. Sure he can "Scale" with his hp from the shield passive thing, but he actual scaling otherwise is pretty mediocre (not bad just meh). He has a lot of CC, but the problem is, it is very avoidable CC, and passive is pretty bad now that people have played around it enough.

In lane and straight up close quarter fights, he is very annoying, but you have to build him as tank as tank can be. Problem is, he fills a role that other tanks fill better, scale better, and lane better.

Malphite, Maokai, and Nautilus alone have CC, good scaling, and and even some damage to toss in. Sion on the other hand has turned into a poor man's Mundo as far as "well I may or may not have good laning, but once I get items you won't kill me" except less effective comparitively at the being as hard to kill later.

So he really doesn't fill any role at all that at least 2 other tanks fill better right now. He was hit too hard during the whole top cinderhulk mess and he has never really had it reverted enough to make him good except against specific matchups. Not saying he is bad, but why pick him over a Maokai for example? I personally wouldn't.

Monkey D LuffyApr 16, 20162 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Sion

Sire HippingtonApr 16, 20162 votes

the issue is that tankiness it'self does nothing come to lategame. The damage output of carries is just to damn high once they get close to fullgear, so the onlything what matters is what else you offer, and sion offers very little simply cause all he does is very unreliable. He can win a game with a good ult into Q, but chances aren't that great that he really lands that combo on a target that matters. His Engages are mostly great when he(read: his team) is ahead so it doesn't matter whom you engage on, all that matters is that a fight is forced.

But overall, most tanks, especially diving tanks, drop of at 40+ min...

Sythriel DrakenApr 16, 20162 votes

The reason he falls off so hard is due to the fact that he, like nasus and cho'gath, was made in an era before they actually sat down and decided what they want each champs directions to go (ie the marksman/mage reworks). Riot has buffed everyone else around them so that they are only as strong as the items they can get. With Sunfire and iceborn being the rage as even assassins are getting it now, they are competitive.. Without these items, and with them being nerfed because of things like Tank Ekko, Akali and fizz, they are unable to stay in the meta for long as games are now starting to hit that late game with the death timer change back to where it was..

Don't get me wrong, I love these types of champions, but I'm starting to get annoyed that every champion in the current meta can easily deal with a sion/nasus/cho'gath or hell, any tank in general with a few items and the only time a tank can really do it's job is in the mid game/early late game.

Tanks in general tho are in a bad spot for the late game. Maw is built on almost everyone these days, and it comes with flat armor pen and life steal.. and these tanks that do damage can't do enough damage to outweigh the amount of lifesteal that is being pumped out..

Maybe once the gw change goes back to where it was before the season things will be better, but riot should really look at tanks sooner than later..

WutsKrakenApr 17, 20162 votes

Unreliable damage and CC from long, predictable casts (sadly) and his base health is actually very weak for a melee, he needs 500+ HP from his W in order to surpass Alistar who has the highest base HP at lvl 18.

Also, tankiness in general falls off late game. Carries eventually shred apart tanks, unless they're too stupid to get penetration items

SoMNiaApr 17, 20162 votes

Be...cause his health stacking is so slow it's incredibly underwhelming even with outstanding CS, and he doesn't have any reliable damage. Just a guess.

ScoroctApr 17, 20162 votes

I must be the only person who doesnt feel he falls off late game and gets totally ignored.

His Q provides massive zoning and one good Q is basically a malphite ult in what it provides. Similarly, if they interrupted it then they wasted a cc ability on you instead of your team, which is still a success from a tank standpoint. His W is a large aoe %HP shield OR %HP nuke (dont bet on getting both late game), his E shreds 20% armor of the first thing it hits, literally giving your ADC basically the armor shred cleaver will give in a fight on avg, instantly on someone probably on the enemy fronline. His ult is godlike follow up/peel cc with its point blank applications, and long range is a good engage, though trades that for less reliability. he does however have the reliability issue though of being mostly skillshots, but if aimed well is a god.

Im sorta confused as to why his Q being interrupted or any specific part of his kit is what hurts him lategame and doesnt trouble him early or midgame. His base dmg and utility are amazing at all points of the game, and even if its not his best dmg item titanic does give the potential to get that active auto on a squishy who'll say goodbye to a third of their hp. his HP stacking means he can get only spirit visage and sunfire as his hp giving items and can stack raw resistance items like thornmail, zzrot, and iceborne and/or frozen heart and still come out with 4k hp being literally the tankiest champion in the game from a raw resists/hp standpoint, and has a massive shield too.

The only reasons he may feel he falls off late is he lacks some of the backline access of other tanks or fighters like zac, malphite, jarvan, maokai, poppy, or vi. He instead is in the group of something like amumu or sejuani who, unless they land a god ult, get a great flank, someone mispositions, will often end up ccing entire frontlines and provide indirect backline access this way.

Also late game ADCs and DPS mages will burn down all in their path given enough time not just sion, and even the burst mages or assasins will make you wonder where a good chunk of hp disappeared to along with maybe some of your teammates. this often means sion might need to play more of the role of a peeling tank, rather than engaging so that his backline is alive long enough to get off dmg. Also worth noting that he is one of the best at ccing frontlines of all tanks, and generally has one of the best laning phases of all top laners too.

(if you are wondering why sions best dmg item isnt titanic, its because due to the nature of his Q, which you probably want 30-40% cdr to be up all the time to zone with or now and then land those juicy knockups, he only gets off a few autos and doesnt get the most of its on hit as say some tanks that engage and then sorta just walk around for a bit like malphite (also a reason Iceborne gauntlet is good on him for the spell weaving effect) and better damage items I recommend Maw for the armor pen for his Q and R, or potentially liandries or abyssal for magic pen for his W or E and all these items also give decent defensive stats)