I'm out of the loop, did someone stomp with Poppy in pro play?

The Ecdysiast·May 9, 2018·35 votes·34,525 views

Her popularity hasn't gone up a significant amount, so that doesn't seem likely. I'd just like an explanation for nerfs on a champion who's been somewhere below 35th in top lane for the last five patches, and below 50% in winrate even with an almost mains-only play rate for double that time.

Edit: I'm glad to see that for once I actually got Red responses, but the response "we've been wanting to do these changes for a while" isn't an explanation. It may have been, if these changes were implemented along with Poppy's original nerfs back when she was wrongfully blamed for Courage of the Colossus's overpowered nature. But as of now, when she has been weak for many months following the tank item nerfs, they weren't warranted.

If anything, Poppy was in need of the playmaking buff to the snapcast on her R with no compensatory nerfs to other abilities. THEN it should have been decided whether or not she was too tanky/fast to have a low-aoe 0.75s knockup with the base damage of a single adc auto attack.

97 Comments

RiotRiot MapleNectarMay 9, 201848 votes

SolCrushed - the designer on the Poppy VGU had wanted to do those changes for awhile, and got some time after Irelia shipped. The intent was to be power neutral (but she ended up dropping a little less than 1 percent. The day after the patch went live, he came over to our team and said he wanted to revert a bit of the compensation nerfs he'd included with the changelist - hence why on the PBE the 5ms nerf is being reverted.

Work for Poppy wasn't shipped because we randomly decided she was too strong/too weak. SolCrushed felt that these changes overall would make her a better champion and had been something he'd been thinking about for awhile.

D357R0Y3RMay 9, 201823 votes

you did changes based on the feeling of a single person

that's nice to hear

HalcyonDwellerMay 9, 201833 votes

{quoted}

so

you did changes based on the feeling of a single person

that's nice to hear

Bug off dude, they had good intentions, and such changes still have to go through testing on the PBE. It probably went through all the same safety checks as the rest of their balance changes do.

Me Vale MadreMay 9, 20189 votes

No we aint "bugging out" how about YOU GUYS LISENT TO US , poppy mains didnt want this change to go through we warned you guys it was trash but no right that ONE person should get the last say in it ... Kinda pathetic this happens all the tine we warn you the change is dumb you go with it anyway and revert it later rinse and repeat shit way to balance stuff what the fuck is the point of pbe if after everyones complaining you STILL go with the changes

RiotplaytestpenguinMay 9, 201828 votes

Champions mains are not always an unbiased source of great feedback. Oftentimes champion mains main a champion because they are in love with the gameplay that currently exists and are resilient to any type of change. I am an Anivia main (and have been since ~2011). When we reworked Anivia so that she could not simply R-> E targets and nuke them while buffing her R and W, anivia mains constantly pmed me and told me that the changes were going to kill the champion, she'd be unplayable garbage, and that me and the designer had no idea how much we were dumpstering the champion.

Anivia promptly rose to be one of the highest winrate mid laners for a large amount of time before nerfs/meta shifts/etc.

BlueHeartMay 10, 20184 votes

but does that mean we should get no feedback? all im asking for is for some responds. a give and a take. i SAID before the poppy changes went live that the MS nerfs did not end up power netural with the E range, as such we now see her MS getting buffed back up. All were asking for is when somebody makes a 7 page essay for a comment of "Noted, we appreciate your love of a champ so much you put this much effort into something!"

EROTIC RAID BOSSMay 10, 20182 votes

I think it means they listened and decided to go ahead with it anyway. It's easy to understand why, as the changes make her more intuitive and hopefully feel better

BlueHeartMay 10, 20185 votes

so then say it, say this post was read and got our attention, but have decided to go ahead for X reason. Transparency.

RiotplaytestpenguinMay 10, 20184 votes

While I'd like to confirm that with every piece of feedback, we get so much that simply confirming "your feedback is heard" on all of it would actually be surprisingly time consuming.

CrazFight May 10, 20183 votes

{quoted}

While I'd like to confirm that with every piece of feedback, we get so much that simply confirming "your feedback is heard" on all of it would actually be surprisingly time consuming.

Couldn't you just add a system to the boards, where you could quickly press a check box on a post or something to confirm "Your feedback is heard" , which could remove the time consuming restraint?

HalcyonDwellerMay 11, 20181 votes

I like that idea, and it probably has some merit, but making it so mechanical in nature could potentially make players feel worse about the checkmarks.

Just a concern worth considering. I still like the idea a lot.

BlueHeartMay 10, 20181 votes

i agree with this, but i do believe that post like were having right here are also needed, sure not every forum can be read/replied to, but outliers like this one (after the chaos has settled) or long and clearly thought out and processed ones, (like ishatoffs poppy mains survey) should have some attention, its all part of just breaking this feel that the boards are an echo chamber. I LOVE that ive actually gotten feedback, i LOVE that you commented back, and hell yes i will admit im biased as hell towards poppy, but i still just want her to be in a niche/viable state, and yah sure i wouldnt want to go somewhere where people just shout and hate at me, ( as a nurse IK that feel) thank you for your time however <3

wobajiMay 10, 20187 votes

{quoted}

Champions mains are not always an unbiased source of great feedback. Oftentimes champion mains main a champion because they are in love with the gameplay that currently exists and are resilient to any type of change. I am an Anivia main (and have been since ~2011). When we reworked Anivia so that she could not simply R-> E targets and nuke them while buffing her R and W, anivia mains constantly pmed me and told me that the changes were going to kill the champion, she'd be unplayable garbage, and that me and the designer had no idea how much we were dumpstering the champion.

Anivia promptly rose to be one of the highest winrate mid laners for a large amount of time before nerfs/meta shifts/etc.

Yeah it's not shocking but do you blame them? They want to play the champion and game they signed up for. I still miss my AP Kog from S4. They don't want it to be turned into something else they don't enjoy when it's perfectly functional as is.

What if I really liked chess and when I sign up for a chess tournament I find out that it's actually for checkers and mislabeled? This game has no stability and it feels bad to invest serious time into understanding it, maining some champs, finding your favorite items and builds or even your favorite role.

Every few months you guys make all of this investment nearly worthless. Even after you do supposed reworks or item changes, they get rehashed another dozen times so there's zero trust that I will still have the game I enjoy, the items I want, etc. in another few months. Any normal game like poker, tennis, Starcraft (much more mechanically intense though) etc. I can have some confidence that my investment isn't flushed down the toilet every few months.

I know there are some problems now and there's a lot of work to still do on this game for various champs, roles, items etc. but I hope there's some sort of end in sight for the frequency of high impact changes. Fix what you need. Change what you need but eventually let me actually enjoy a balanced game where I can find my preferences instead of being at the whim of the meta forced by so many nonstop changes. The game wasn't changing this radically all the time even from S4 to S5 when I was really getting into it.

Once things are more settled, let the meta develop more organically and step in only if it's clear certain strategies are out of line or severely underperforming. If next year is going to continue to be this disruptive, I don't think I can take it seriously and invest so much time anymore. It fees like I'm punished for caring and studying the game. This applies to chat too.

RiotplaytestpenguinMay 10, 20187 votes

Of course I don't blame them -- I just don't think that listening to champion mains solves all of our problems which is touted here frequently :)

The EcdysiastMay 10, 20185 votes

Well, I can only agree so far as that mindset pertains to champions with a play rate above mains-only. Yes, it's the right decision not to listen to champion mains when it's a popular champion who is doing too well. But when it's a <3% playrate champion who is doing poorly, ignoring the mains makes little sense.

My Waifu VanillaMay 10, 20183 votes

The question is then WHY does the champion have such a low playrate? Without changes that champion is NEVER going to get picked by more people.

Baron von JigglyMay 10, 20184 votes

So... nerfs that make a champ weaker are gonna make more people pick them and totally not toss them to the wayside for other more powerful champs?

The EcdysiastMay 11, 20181 votes

The other guy who responded to your comment hit the nail on the head. How would nerfs to a champion which don't change that champion's playstyle increase popularity?

If it were a nerf/buff combo which actually edited her playstyle somehow, you'd have a leg to stand on. But they don't. They specifically stated themselves that they want to force her into only doing one thing, which she already did, while taking away her ability to be safe at the mid-range of a teamfight after her E-- safe compared to no one except juggernauts who heal themselves because of their short range.

DeathBurstMay 10, 20184 votes

Honest, my gut reaction reading this was "it's a load of horsecrap". But I'll try to be a bit more constructive than that.

I'll start with the one point where I agree: yes, if you're enjoying a single champ with a single specific playstyle, you've no guarantee that they'll keep the same for a long time. And yes, even though it's not my case, I do understand that it's painful and frustrating. That would actually be a reason for me to leave the game.

But you don't HAVE TO main a single champ with a single playstyle. You can main a same champ through different meta and adapt to different playstyles. Even something as simple as Garen of all things has gone through 3 or 4 main builds over the last 2 years, and it can be fun exploring and learning even after hundreds of games on a champ. It can also be fun exploring and innovating and beating people thanks to your innovation. Things changing is not necessarily a negative.

And things changing doesn't mean your "investment is flushed down the drain", that's just a plain, gross exaggeration. If the build you mained is nerfed or fall out of flavor, there is still another build taking its place, and as a main of your champion, you should have a much easier time adapting to it than someone who's just trying to pick up the new flavor of the month. Likewise if it's the champion who's affected instead of the build. If you played a Juggernaut or an ADC or a Burst Mage to hell and back, even if they are reworked and you don't enjoy them anymore, you should have an easy time picking up another Juggernaut, ADC or Burst Mage that you enjoy more and that you'll learn pretty quickly based on your experience with similar champs.

And on top of all that, whatever the champ you're playing, LoL strategies and macro-play principles always stay the same, and if you master it, it will stay with you no matter what champ you end up picking. Saying that LoL 8.10 is to LoL 5.7 or whatever what checkers is to chess is a ridiculous analogy. The details change all the time, but the core of the game is always the same.

Also, the game wasn't changing as much in S4 / S5? That's rose-tainted glasses right there, you might wanna re-read the Patch notes of that time. I barely had learned the S4 Jungle that it changed all over again in S5. The game was always changing.

EDIT: oh and what's that comment about chat even mean? Like, that's the biggest crap of it all...

wobajiMay 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Champions mains are not always an unbiased source of great feedback. Oftentimes champion mains main a champion because they are in love with the gameplay that currently exists and are resilient to any type of change. I am an Anivia main (and have been since ~2011). When we reworked Anivia so that she could not simply R-> E targets and nuke them while buffing her R and W, anivia mains constantly pmed me and told me that the changes were going to kill the champion, she'd be unplayable garbage, and that me and the designer had no idea how much we were dumpstering the champion.

Anivia promptly rose to be one of the highest winrate mid laners for a large amount of time before nerfs/meta shifts/etc.

You have a good point about Anivia or let's say old WW but sometimes the mains do have a point. I think reworks definitely have to maintain similar playstyles and similar strength while providing richer or "healthier" gameplay if possible. If you took Corki now and turned him from a bursty but ultimately DPS champ. and made him into a Jhin, of course Corki mains would be annoyed (especially if late game is worse).

HäxelMay 10, 20182 votes

best recent exampel how you should not hear on mains i can think of is the shaco/duskblade change where originaly shaco was not planed to get compensationbuffs but the mains cried their reddit and the boards full so he got some and ended stronger as pre duskblade nerf where he already was at 53%.

LandorinMay 10, 20185 votes

I feel it's possible to believe that changes can be a net negative regardless of whether they make the champion weak or strong.

For Anivia as an example, I was never an Anivia main, but I did dabble in her from time to time. I will never play her current incarnation because it honestly just isn't as satisfying as the old one. Too slow, too clunky, not reliable enough, and too much focus on control to the detriment of burst. To me it doesn't matter if she's more effective if her gameplay fantasy is changed for the worse. That's of course a non-main's perspective, but I think most mains will feel the same way even if they don't necessarily articulate it.

RiotplaytestpenguinMay 10, 20189 votes

Sure -- I was speaking mostly from power here. I believe that champion feeling in terms of inputs/outputs is an area where listening to that kind of subjective feedback is very important.

I can understand being turned off Anivia from those changes, but at the end of the day my job is to make LoL a better holistic game -- and that's an example off the top of my head where I believe we succeeded despite outcry that we were dumpstering the champion.

NefasMay 10, 20187 votes

Do you think that LoL is a better game, holistically, than it was a year ago?

One thing I’ve always been very curious to hear from Rioters is a real state of the game - not just how this aspect or that aspect is right now but how Riot thinks the game is doing compared to previous times. It’s something we usually only get indirectly if a rework is reverted or through an aside in patch notes.

I’ll be honest and admit I don’t enjoy the game as a whole as much today as I did a year ago. But it would be nice to hear a bit of more a very high level state of the game with comparisons to past experiences if just for players to be able to better understand Riot objectives in making changes. “We want to make X role stronger/weaker” is more informative in relation to a point in time - “We want to make X role return to the level of influence it had during Season Z”

KaìjuMay 10, 20181 votes

If a main presents their views and feedback in a neutral way with a hope for constructive conversation would you be more open? I play Ashe but so try not to be biased since I know she's a less thought of champion but also walks the line of too strong or too weak because she has utility.

Would you want main feedback if we just tried to remove as much bias as possible?

RiotplaytestpenguinMay 10, 20185 votes

It's not that I'm closed to champion main feedback at all! I often rely on information for mains when I'm communicating with designers about champions I'm not familiar with, for example. They're an incredibly useful resource when learning stuff about LoL, as each character is so deep that it's a fool's errand to pretend as if I know everything.

Presenting feedback in a more neutral/constructive manner is always better to convey your point. This applies to us playtesters internally as well.

NecrosideMay 10, 20181 votes

So what about Veigar Veigar mains like me who want healthy changes for his champion?

He IS NOT in a good position. His trading patterns are still below subpar even for a champion like him and what he offers. There was a Rioter post that the Playtest team acknowledges this issue for him. But for some reason he keeps getting scaling buffs? instead of a powershift from his scaling to give him some better laning.

Spellbook meta allowed him to see SOME use of his potential but was not even necessarily good in that meta due to others just simply outclassing him because they had better laning and just as good scaling or better spikes.

If the champion is too difficult to balance because of his E then please consider him to be a candidate to receive a full VGU. It's not satisfying to play a champion who has zero amount of lane presence.

AmWhaleIRLMay 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

So what about Veigar mains like me who want healthy changes for his champion?

He IS NOT in a good position. His trading patterns are still below subpar even for a champion like him and what he offers. There was a Rioter post that the Playtest team acknowledges this issue for him. But for some reason he keeps getting scaling buffs? instead of a powershift from his scaling to give him some better laning.

Spellbook meta allowed him to see SOME use of his potential but was not even necessarily good in that meta due to others just simply outclassing him because they had better laning and just as good scaling or better spikes.

If the champion is too difficult to balance because of his E then please consider him to be a candidate to receive a full VGU. It's not satisfying to play a champion who has zero amount of lane presence.

He's too difficult to balance because of his infinite scaling. They can't and SHOULDN'T give him a good Laning phase for how hard he scales. I agree he could definitely use some help in the Laning bit, but overall it should still be hard. Because if the enemies let you get to late game it's way significantly harder for them to win (as it should be).

NecrosideMay 10, 20181 votes

I'm going to request you re-read and do not use the "infinite scaling" as a counter-argument. It's a poor example of using on him as the only time he can seem "OP" along with Nasus in the "infinite scaling" department is in LOW ELO.

They can and Should give him a good laning phase because they allowed this before 5.4 and HE WAS FAR FROM PROBLEMATIC. The only thing that was an issue was his Event Horizon that was abused in the support role. But he had a way more better lane phase in the past before they changed his kit and again wasn't problematic. So he won't be problematic if they gave him more laning power if they took away some of his scaling power they keep randomly giving him.

Sad thing is Veigar isn't even in the top 3 nor top 5 for winrates come past 40 minutes.

Unironically Cassio a hyper-scaling late game mage Does tremendously better than Veigar past 40 minutes.

Fun Fact: Cass actually has a lane phase.

AmWhaleIRLMay 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I'm going to request you re-read and do not use the "infinite scaling" as a counter-argument. It's a poor example of using on him as the only time he can seem "OP" along with Nasus in the "infinite scaling" department is in LOW ELO.

They can and Should give him a good laning phase because they allowed this before 5.4 and HE WAS FAR FROM PROBLEMATIC. The only thing that was an issue was his Event Horizon that was abused in the support role. But he had a way more better lane phase in the past before they changed his kit and again wasn't problematic. So he won't be problematic if they gave him more laning power if they took away some of his scaling power they keep randomly giving him.

Sad thing is Veigar isn't even in the top 3 nor top 5 for winrates come past 40 minutes.

Unironically Cassio a hyper-scaling late game mage Does tremendously better than Veigar past 40 minutes.

Fun Fact: Cass actually has a lane phase.

Why would I take out a valid part of his kit from the debate? That makes no sense. I'm trying to discuss ALL of Veigar, not Veigar minus one thing about him. Back in season 5 he wasn't op but he was good imo. I don't know the history of nerfs but I imagine he got nerfed because he was being used in the LCS. Not saying that's a good reason, but it is what it is. I do agree that he definitely needs work though. With the current iteration of league with all the shields, heals, self peel and gap closers on every champion, stuff like his cage isn't very impressive anymore.

NecrosideMay 11, 20181 votes

5.4 was a nerf to get him out of the support only role for one ability.

He got nerfed during Season 5 worlds because people like you kept repeating that he was problematic over and over. While he had next to no oppressive nature in high elo nor in LCS and was seen as a pocket pick to counter the Darius meta. So again he wasn't nerfed in S5 (just to give you some facts) worlds because of him being picked a lot, C9 was the only team that really played him and had success with him. It was because the ignorance of casual players that got him nerfed.

The base damage on paper seems like it was a tap on the wrist, but that took away so much once they gutted TP (which was the main culprit why scaling mages were in a good spot, some way more OP than Veigar) and left him in the gutter.

I want Riot to buff Veigar in the RIGHT way instead of the typical "Lets give him a random extra scaling to his scaling!!! that'll make him better!" When all he needs is something to have his laning more respectable and not something that's purely theoretical.

Take power away from his scaling... Remove that W CDR bonus on stacks crap. Keep the base CDR buff (where it's a static 8 second CD instead of a 10-8 scaling). Give him some Q buff that helps his laning in terms of trading better and healthy rather than WAIT for his Q off CD and not interact with the enemy.

Doctor MilkMay 10, 20182 votes

I was initially on board with the complaints as an Anivia main myself (wasn’t one that pm’d) until I learned to work with the changes. It’s actually more satisfying to have to be a bit more strategic when using her abilities instead of R E’ing them whenever I felt like it if I outranged them.

Only thing that would complete me is a visual update on her model and base abilities. A guy can dream.

Anivia

KanzlerMay 11, 20181 votes

Didn't anivia only become strong after the mage item rework patch?

RiotplaytestpenguinMay 11, 20182 votes

My example was from patch 6.23, which was a decent amount of time ago when we did a small-scope pattern change/rework on Anivia and the followup to her balance after that patch.

LordGeovanniMay 10, 20184 votes

Good intentions sadly dont mean much when bad results come out of it. how would you like it if some one had good intentions for your house and left a gaping hole that anyone could enter through.

HalcyonDwellerMay 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Good intentions sadly dont mean much when bad results come out of it. how would you like it if some one had good intentions for your house and left a gaping hole that anyone could enter through.

I'd be upset if someone left a gaping hole in my wall, but we're not talking about it being left that way. I'd be willing to forgive them if they fixed it for me free of charge very shortly afterwards. Which is basically what is happening. They're already planning and testing compensation stuff for poppy.

Edit: Also the main point of my comment had little to do with intentions. Take a look at how dest-something-or-other made their argument. It was not about poppy, it was simply about putting down rioters.

LordGeovanniMay 11, 20181 votes

Its not that you cant be thankful that people fix the hole but you completely neglect the implications of a gaping hole in your house now rain animals and theives can enter as they please Just as The implications of 'rebalance' of poppy leaves people with lost games that may have been won and lost lp and rank. Most people arent gonna just accept that it will get fixed at a later date before they curse the inconvenience. Especially with riots track record of 'Fixing things'.

HalcyonDwellerMay 11, 20181 votes

Well as I said elsewhere, people who are legitimately frustrated with it have every right to complain. And they have and are. I was only responding harshly in this instance because the person I originally replied to was being manipulative and a complete ass.

Dest-something-or-other was just hijacking the topic because they wanted to bash on Rioters. The proof is in the fact that they brought in entirely off-topic subjects that had nothing to do with poppy just so they could bash CertainlyT too. That wasn't legitimate at all.

LordGeovanniMay 11, 20181 votes

No I agree that it is stupid that the champion is changed on the whims of one person. Riot has a bad and stupid habit of trying to make champions cover everything which just pushes champions who specialize in anything in a bad place because league is a game that is supposed to change based on what people decide to do in the game thus people who can handle any situation to a moderate degree are always gonna beat out specialist champions who can only do one thing. and that is exactly what this change was for to try to push poppy in a more general can handle anything state but Unlike when they buff mages and adcs they didnt give her what they wanted to give her then nerf the other parts if it was too strong they just nerfed her numbers and gave her a bit of range. But they didnt give her range on what she needed it most on the push part of her E not the intial range of the E. The E range increase is an overall nerf because poppy needed that movement speed to get her casted and the tankyness after the casting to fight. the cast of the E is the same but its a nerf to every other situation you use the movement speed form W for engageing without e, getting passive, running away. And a nerf to her in fight tankyness.

The EcdysiastMay 10, 20183 votes

Unfortunately, their balance changes don't go through real safety tests, the PBE is only capable of testing bugs. And a good intention does not justify a poor action after the fact.

DW DianaMay 9, 201811 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4vxqEyPe,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-05-09T18:08:37.905+0000)

SolCrushed - the designer on the Poppy VGU had wanted to do those changes for awhile, and got some time after Irelia shipped. The intent was to be power neutral (but she ended up dropping a little less than 1 percent. The day after the patch went live, he came over to our team and said he wanted to revert a bit of the compensation nerfs he'd included with the changelist - hence why on the PBE the 5ms nerf is being reverted.

Work for Poppy wasn't shipped because we randomly decided she was too strong/too weak. SolCrushed felt that these changes overall would make her a better champion and had been something he'd been thinking about for awhile.

Thank you for your response to this Maple. It is no doubt appreciated by those that play Poppy.

Also please don't think badly of all of us in the Gameplay boards, we're not all like D357R0Y3R and really appreciate it when you or one of the other Rioter's respond and give a little clarity.

Thanks again :)

BlueHeartMay 9, 20185 votes

So i dont want to sound like an asshole, or be mean, but what about the outcries of the poppy mains who said they didnt want this? There was more then 1 post that said that these changes were at best mixed among us. And many even claimed that these changes made her weaker (the current drop is around 2% in winrate) so why ignore us? why not talk to us? After videos from the likes of Huzzygames and and RossBoomSocks, i felt riot was going in the direction of "We want feedback" hell the other day i even got a feedback flag asking why i played maokai, yet again we get barely a scrap of return feedback. Why isnt such feedback mention in its own devblog called Feedback Responds. So that we KNOW that you guys actually heard us when we (be it the poppy mains, the ADC players or the Mage players) Have had our concerned noted and if nothing else a counter argument/thought process given back. You guys want feedback with your changes. We so do we. we WANT to know what the thought process is and WANT to know if things like, "We feel the MS nerf to poppy is not compensated by the E increased Range" Is heard, noted and then ask for what could help. Why cant we get the feedback, for our own feedback? cuz with this whole poppy thing, myself and many other poppy players feel IGNORED and again not trying to be an asshole, but its REALLY FUCKING FRUSTERATING to feel like im talking to an abyss that is more than willing to take my thought and then do NOTHING with it and note even reply to why. Of course replying to each individual comment 1 by 1 is not effective or even possible, but when somebody makes a 7 PAGE ESSAY that is the combined thoughts of MANY poppy players and it gets read and not even acknowledged that it was read, does that not feel like a waste of time, and put some of us in a state of why the hell would i even give you feedback when you wont listen to it anyway? there is a trade going on here, we give YOU feedback, and you give us the acknowledgment that such feedback lead to such a change. or that such post was considered and heres X reason why that doesnt work but what do you think of XYZ solution? transparency is a word that continues to be thrown around for how opaque riot has been. if you want GOOD feedback then PLEASE give us some in return, thats how talking planning and discussions work, replies keep conversations going. Sure im not Redmercy IreliaCarriesU Gbay Huzzy or some other youtuber, but they are high players who are polling information from vast audience and being our speakers, so when somebody like isajohoff makes a huge essay and surveys almost ever member of the poppy mains discord youd think that we could at least get a comment saying this was read and considered.

PyrofiendMay 9, 20186 votes

I'm not really a fan of her snap cast ult. It doesn't feel like an ultimate ability. It's a simple 0.75 second knock up on a really long cool down with incredibly low damage.

I think there should be a decision process involved in choosing to either fully charge her ult or snap cast it. Currently the decision is to either use a real ultimate ability or to use a budget Alistar/Aatrox Q that does 100 damage on a 140 second cool down. That doesn't feel good to use; it feels like you're trolling when you snap cast it.

In closing, I think ults should feel impactful and distinct from basic abilities. In my opinion, Poppy's snap cast does not fit either category.

Let Me Bot PlsMay 9, 20183 votes

I think she still needs to be stronger than that even, shes very weak for a top lane right now. And while she can (barely) tank, she can't dmg top or play support as either role. It's too easy to zone her right now and her ult is a good disengage but that is pretty much all shes working with

wobajiMay 10, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4vxqEyPe,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-05-09T18:08:37.905+0000)

SolCrushed - the designer on the Poppy VGU had wanted to do those changes for awhile, and got some time after Irelia shipped. The intent was to be power neutral (but she ended up dropping a little less than 1 percent. The day after the patch went live, he came over to our team and said he wanted to revert a bit of the compensation nerfs he'd included with the changelist - hence why on the PBE the 5ms nerf is being reverted.

Work for Poppy wasn't shipped because we randomly decided she was too strong/too weak. SolCrushed felt that these changes overall would make her a better champion and had been something he'd been thinking about for awhile.

LS was literally laughing in the patch notes rundown when he went over 8.9 and saw the Poppy changes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irTD2zze_UQ

RodniiMay 10, 20182 votes

{quoted}

LS was literally laughing in the patch notes rundown when he went over 8.9 and saw the Poppy changes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irTD2zze_UQ

It's a sad state. I do not understand what was the logic behind this.

Malix FarwinMay 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

LS was literally laughing in the patch notes rundown when he went over 8.9 and saw the Poppy changes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irTD2zze_UQ

LS also said Zoe would be in a good spot when she got gutted before they buffed her back up so you will have to excuse me if i do not take what he said seriously.

ZapMyHeartMay 10, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4vxqEyPe,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-05-09T18:08:37.905+0000)

SolCrushed - the designer on the Poppy VGU had wanted to do those changes for awhile, and got some time after Irelia shipped. The intent was to be power neutral (but she ended up dropping a little less than 1 percent. The day after the patch went live, he came over to our team and said he wanted to revert a bit of the compensation nerfs he'd included with the changelist - hence why on the PBE the 5ms nerf is being reverted.

Work for Poppy wasn't shipped because we randomly decided she was too strong/too weak. SolCrushed felt that these changes overall would make her a better champion and had been something he'd been thinking about for awhile.

Why would the designer be power neutral on a champion, whose winrate is rather subpar to begin with? Meanwhile, the rest of the balance team is all gungho about full nerfs or buffs on specific champions in their patches.

And that 5MS revert ain't going to do much, especially when her W is in shambles. Put some more power back into her W and then reassess.

The EcdysiastMay 10, 20183 votes

My question is why the change was overall nerfs, with range buffs disguised as compensation. The explanation we got on the patch note was that the goal was to give her more strength on the things she can only do once a fight starts in exchange for the losses on higher-duration/passive aspects of her W. But the changes weren't buffs to the damage of her passive or the duration/damage of her E, but rather the ranges of both.

And while I'll concede that a range buff to the E does follow that line of reasoning, the loss of movement speed on the W makes it so that it is far more difficult to get within that range in the first place. As for the passive, it directly contradicts that line of reasoning, as the nerf hinges on the idea that she should be in the thick of combat. But giving her no damage increase/scaling on the passive, opting instead for a slight buff in range doesn't actually do anything unless you want to cheese norms with a rapid firecannon Poppy.

RodniiMay 10, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4vxqEyPe,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-05-09T18:08:37.905+0000)

SolCrushed - the designer on the Poppy VGU had wanted to do those changes for awhile, and got some time after Irelia shipped. The intent was to be power neutral (but she ended up dropping a little less than 1 percent. The day after the patch went live, he came over to our team and said he wanted to revert a bit of the compensation nerfs he'd included with the changelist - hence why on the PBE the 5ms nerf is being reverted.

Work for Poppy wasn't shipped because we randomly decided she was too strong/too weak. SolCrushed felt that these changes overall would make her a better champion and had been something he'd been thinking about for awhile.

A better champion for what exactly? This is what we don't understand. She's not a good tank since tank items and runes are nerfed, she's not a good brusier there are tons who have better CC and damage, and she's not a good support. So what is she supposed to be? How does this make her a better champion in any way?