Honestly, Scuttle defeats the purpose of jungling

PhantomGG·May 22, 2018·62 votes·16,994 views

Jungling can be summed down to a few things, and this is me breaking it down as basically as possible without going into the complicated shit.

-Warding -Guarding neutral objective -Being Hidden while making a plan -Being the stealthy SURPRISE ATTACK guy

But the new scuttle crab defeats all of those purposes

-All your warding now has to be focused around scuttle areas -Guarding becomes pointless for now you have to chase after scuttle, that is your core objective -You can't make a real plan or pathing plan, because all your attention is focused on scuttler and adapting to where it spawns -How can you keep yourself hidden when everyone knows, that the junglers will be pathing towards Scuttle crab?

This thing literally destroys the four core basic jobs of the jungler for it demands so much attention.

26 Comments

Quiet DudeMay 22, 201830 votes

Next patch, every 2.5 minutes, jungle roles gets changed to crab guard. God help the poor bastard who fails at it

PhantomGGMay 22, 201812 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quiet Dude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4kYqgqj2,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-05-22T17:53:44.870+0000)

Next patch, every 2.5 minutes, jungle roles gets changed to crab guard. God help the poor bastard who fails at it

pre much

Light BurnerMay 23, 20182 votes

{quoted}

pre much

this is so wrong in every fucking way known to man. I'll explain myself if you can't figure out by yourself that a jungler doesn't just sit in the river all game.

Warlord RhinarkMay 23, 20184 votes

Explain yourself, then.

Z3SleeperMay 23, 20184 votes

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/013/306/2dd.jpg

Quiet DudeMay 24, 20183 votes

Light Burner left town guys, too much ‘splainin to do

Light BurnerJul 20, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4kYqgqj2,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-23T13:24:26.162+0000)

Explain yourself, then.

Alright

Warding is not ONLY the jungler's job so i dont get how you can agree with scuttle destroying warding. Theres a lot of things that need to be warded the more vision the better. 2.Guarding neutral objectives also is not the jungler's job its a team effort you take drake as a team you protect drake as a team. Just because you lost drake doesnt mean your jungler wasnt doing his job especially in a case where your bot lane recalls at a bad time and they 4 man drake and you're supposed to steal or stop them from taking it by what 1v4ing? Its a team oriented objective 3.Being hidden when everyone knows you need to take scuttle? you need to do that once every 1 min 30 seconds what are you doing the rest of the time. And sure scuttle gold and exp is good but putting an enemy laner behind and possibly taking his turret or just having that map pressure id say is more than enough to compensate (assuming "compensate can even be used here since getting a turret is a better deal).
I dont even know what to say to this. "Because scuttle spawned means i need to be at scuttle"? How does this make sense. Okay sure you go top and get scuttle ill go bot and get a double kill with my team and then take drake, but you make sure to tell your bot lane "dw guys i got scuttle worth". You'll see how fast your adc afk's from that.

Warlord RhinarkJul 20, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Light Burner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4kYqgqj2,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-07-20T19:51:11.569+0000)

Alright

Warding is not ONLY the jungler's job so i dont get how you can agree with scuttle destroying warding. Theres a lot of things that need to be warded the more vision the better. 2.Guarding neutral objectives also is not the jungler's job its a team effort you take drake as a team you protect drake as a team. Just because you lost drake doesnt mean your jungler wasnt doing his job especially in a case where your bot lane recalls at a bad time and they 4 man drake and you're supposed to steal or stop them from taking it by what 1v4ing? Its a team oriented objective 3.Being hidden when everyone knows you need to take scuttle? you need to do that once every 1 min 30 seconds what are you doing the rest of the time. And sure scuttle gold and exp is good but putting an enemy laner behind and possibly taking his turret or just having that map pressure id say is more than enough to compensate (assuming "compensate can even be used here since getting a turret is a better deal).

I dont even know what to say to this. "Because scuttle spawned means i need to be at scuttle"? How does this make sense. Okay sure you go top and get scuttle ill go bot and get a double kill with my team and then take drake, but you make sure to tell your bot lane "dw guys i got scuttle worth". You'll see how fast your adc afk's from that.

Mate this was 2 months ago.

DeusVultMay 22, 201810 votes

The scuttle changes were pretty bad, but just to play devils advocate

Laners will continue to ward their lanes. Junglers aren't forced to ward for scuttle, you can deep ward and anticipate plays
Instead of guarding, if a scuttle shows it will spawn in one half of the map and you aren't going to be in a position to fight over it, make a play for the drag/rift on the other side of the map. Or go for a gank seeing as how it is fairly safe to assume that the other jungler won't be in a position to counter-gank you
You can make a plan, you might have to adapt it to when/where scuttle will spawn, or you could make the call to ignore it since you won't be in a position to contest and instead look to make a play on the side of the map where you are strong.
If you can consistently know that the jungler will be going to scuttle, then the jungler/laners should either help shadow their jungler, or look to make a play knowing that they are safe. For example, if I am top lane and a scuttle will be spawning bot-side in 10 seconds, I can look to go for an extended trade or an all-in, since I can safely assume that the enemy jungler is going bot side for scuttler, and their mid is shadowing the jungler.

Like I said, the scuttle change is pretty dog-shit, but it isn't as close to as bad as the boards would have you believe

PhantomGGMay 22, 201810 votes

{quoted}

The scuttle changes were pretty bad, but just to play devils advocate

Laners will continue to ward their lanes. Junglers aren't forced to ward for scuttle, you can deep ward and anticipate plays

Instead of guarding, if a scuttle shows it will spawn in one half of the map and you aren't going to be in a position to fight over it, make a play for the drag/rift on the other side of the map. Or go for a gank seeing as how it is fairly safe to assume that the other jungler won't be in a position to counter-gank you

You can make a plan, you might have to adapt it to when/where scuttle will spawn, or you could make the call to ignore it since you won't be in a position to contest and instead look to make a play on the side of the map where you are strong.

If you can consistently know that the jungler will be going to scuttle, then the jungler/laners should either help shadow their jungler, or look to make a play knowing that they are safe. For example, if I am top lane and a scuttle will be spawning bot-side in 10 seconds, I can look to go for an extended trade or an all-in, since I can safely assume that the enemy jungler is going bot side for scuttler, and their mid is shadowing the jungler.

Like I said, the scuttle change is pretty dog-shit, but it isn't as close to as bad as the boards would have you believe

1-Laners ward pre lcs? LOL.

2-If you aren't guarding it, you're playing this patch incorrectly, the key to winning this patch is absolute river control, to than transcend into invades to keep enemy jungler behind

3- You can't make a plan, good junglers are suppose to make plans five minutes ahead of the game, but Skuttle forces you to completely derail your pathing plans

4-They won't

-The patch is just as bad as everyone says it is.

Leto GTMay 23, 20182 votes

Thank you. Especially the point 3, is what ppl don't understand.

BlakiepugMay 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The scuttle changes were pretty bad, but just to play devils advocate

Laners will continue to ward their lanes. Junglers aren't forced to ward for scuttle, you can deep ward and anticipate plays

Instead of guarding, if a scuttle shows it will spawn in one half of the map and you aren't going to be in a position to fight over it, make a play for the drag/rift on the other side of the map. Or go for a gank seeing as how it is fairly safe to assume that the other jungler won't be in a position to counter-gank you

You can make a plan, you might have to adapt it to when/where scuttle will spawn, or you could make the call to ignore it since you won't be in a position to contest and instead look to make a play on the side of the map where you are strong.

If you can consistently know that the jungler will be going to scuttle, then the jungler/laners should either help shadow their jungler, or look to make a play knowing that they are safe. For example, if I am top lane and a scuttle will be spawning bot-side in 10 seconds, I can look to go for an extended trade or an all-in, since I can safely assume that the enemy jungler is going bot side for scuttler, and their mid is shadowing the jungler.

Like I said, the scuttle change is pretty dog-shit, but it isn't as close to as bad as the boards would have you believe

I think the reason that everyone is upset about it is because it is not just the jungle changes. This whole season has been a giant mess of Riot introducing changes that people don't want and not taking feedback. It's kind of similar to when class updates happened in the past and Riot ignored basically all feedback about the champion's they reworked as a part of them (part of the reason we are seeing so many reverts now). However, now that Riot no longer does class updates, the changes are affecting the game on a much more fundamental level. Before when Riot screwed up and ignored the issues, only a few champions were affected at a time (i.e. Zac, Sejuani, Maokai). Now though imbalances/disliked changes in runes, items, etc. are affecting the game on a much larger scale. I have to say that as much as I disliked class updates, I would rather have them and keep the game in an overall much more stable state than this mess of a season.

AptestMay 23, 20181 votes

im pretty sure you are not all correct here.

I mean, im pretty sure junglers didn't want the jungle changes, which are aimed at nerfing the jungle lane in general, but top laners have been up in arms for a while now about a number of issues ranging from overall lack of visible impact, the more desirable champions being less viable, lack of participation paths in the game while split pushing hyper carries are as viable as most top laner players desire etc etc etc...

...and whenever i think about what pins top lane into such a state, a lot of the problems originate with the jungle. for instance, the preference of junglers to go damage rather than tank (granted, this is a universal preference) pinches the top lane picks (who also prefer damage) towards tank picks. The lack of available jungle camps to steal and the high ability of some junglers to 1v1 restricts jungle theft strategies from top laners, etc etc.

AptestMay 22, 20183 votes

@OP:

Ok. So far I agree with you. However all of the items on your list should be contestable by the laners. Does the laner:

get a reasonable chance of not letting you ward?
get a reasonable opportunity to not allow you to guard objectives?
get a reasonable opportunity to not allow you to be hidden or make plans?
get a reasonable opportunity to surprise attack you?

The situation you describe is where you have all the knowledge and can make all the decisions, and while you play spyVSspy with the other jungler, the other team's interaction with you is purely defensive - i.e. to play in a way that does not permit your gank to succeed.

your summary of the jungler job is unfair. There are several problems it causes, chief among which is pinning laners to lanes, and laners not having good enough opportunity to act outside of lane. therefore that definition ought to change. Especially if jungler champions can 1v1 lane champions.

I only agree with your no3 point - that the RNG of scuttle spawn ruins your ability to make plans.

SpencerMay 22, 20182 votes

Good laners can and do play a pretty proactive game against the enemy jungler.

Further, I would argue that the jungler as an unknown quantity actually makes the game more interesting. Top is a snooze fest without the threat of a jungler. Mid isn't much better unless you have a character that can roam. Similarly, outside of a few kill comps, bot just farms until someone pushes a lane down. Jungle is largely the piece that stirs the pot and forces decisions like "do we want to push", etc?

This patch has turned jungle into a largely known quantity. Deep warding and fucking with the jungler is less interesting since camps are worth less meaning jungle is going to fall behind generally speaking. The correct option is largely to always push as hard as you can in lane since that gives you crab priority and the jungle threat is pretty limited these days. Even were the jungler unpredictable, they are weak enough that ganks are massive risks. Further, with how hard leveling in the jungle is now, falling behind is a death sentence. Games are massively snowball-y now.

Now I don't want junglers to be the only dominate piece of the game. Nor do I want them to be the major deciding factor of who wins or loses. But their unpredictability is a big part of what makes the game so exciting. I remember the farm wars a few seasons back... those games were tedious and awful. It is the killing that makes LoL interested... and the jungler is (was?) largely about facilitating that.

AptestMay 23, 20181 votes

Here is my view:

is the jungler a threat to play around (proactively or reactively)? or is he a potential free meal, to attempt and get (proactively or reactively)?

Should be both.

SpencerMay 23, 20182 votes

I don't disagree, but my question to you is how does the current jungle facilitate that?

I would argue that the pre-8.10 jungle did that better even though it wasn't perfect.

AptestMay 23, 20181 votes

I did not research the topic enough to give a good answer. So please do not take this as an answer, but rather as a thought stream. I am not really sure whether any of this is correct.

I do think that making scuttle into a more important objective helps, because scuttle is an objective nearby to lanes: therefore fighting over scuttle has a much higher probability of evolving into a multi-character skirmish and scuttle theft by the laner is much more impactful against the enemy jungler.

being near also has less opportunity cost of losing CS or having your opponent power shove the tower (remember many top lane champions kill towers super fast)

What kind of proactive moves you can basically make against the enemy jungler: you can set up vision in his path, and then you (or your team) makes plays based on that vision, you can contest the enemy jungler on a known location, or you can steal camps.

The first option is a low impact move. As previously, it is doable.

As for second option: Previously, it is hard for laner (especially in low elo) to steal camps. Because for the most part the camps are not up. If the jungler is ganking (known location, therefore safer to invade) his jungle is empty, and if he is farming, than an invade is dangerous. Now the jungler has more known locations, and more trouble pathing efficiently towards them while clearing own jungle. Therefore both the opportunity of invading increases, and also the potential reward.

Third option, to contest the jungler on a known point. That is obvious. The more places that the enemy jungler NEEDS to be in, as opposed to chooses to be in, the more opportunities you have to make a move on him on the objective or in transit. This is equivalent to what existed in seasons 3-4 with blue buff, where a buff transfer to an otherwise mana-starved laner (blue gave AP too, and many mids were "give me blue so i don't have to build a tear"!) was an important mini-event and many ganks occurred as a result of being able to time and ward the enemy blue.

Whereas on previous patch:

the jungler clears efficiently in own jungle. As you are unsure of his location, dangerous to roam and ward. Then jungler ganks, but camps are cleared and nothing to steal. Contesting over scuttle is more dangerous as you do not have the backup of your jungler, and the rewards are smaller.

in summary the new patch has the same amount of interactions initiated by jungler, but more interactions initiated by laners of several types.

None of this addresses the RNG issue though.

Trias000May 23, 20182 votes

{quoted}

-How can you keep yourself hidden when everyone knows, that the junglers will be pathing towards Scuttle crab?

Then use it as deception. If they expect you to be near the scuttle, you can gank or invade the enemy jungle on the opposite side of the map.

XxnbQKViy0May 23, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Then use it as deception. If they expect you to be near the scuttle, you can gank or invade the enemy jungle on the opposite side of the map.

yeah the problems are:

you're ganking as a weak jungler that is levels behind the laner. Ganking is and always was a risky decision.
you're invading the enemy jungle as weak jungler. Invading is also risky.
even if you get away with invading, you're still not getting much value out of the camps. They do damage to you and give little gold and xp

Meanwhile the enemy jungler is very safe killing a bag of gold that gives xp and gold. He can kill it fast and exploit the fact that you're on the opposite side of the map and gank a lane himself or even take a few camps of your own jungle.

The one going for the crab will almost always come out on top. And if you get behind as a jungle on this current patch... RIP.

See, what people don't understand is that you are FORCED to contest the crab to take out the MOST VALUE out of your time during a match. And this is a very big problem.

BIFFMay 24, 20181 votes

This guy jungles.

It amazes me how many laners like to talk about the jungle and have no real clue about the cost benefit analysis required to play the role.

Its like laners think just showing up somewhere as a jungler nets you a profit. When the truth is every gank or clear has a cost associated with it.

Trias000May 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

even if you get away with invading, you're still not getting much value out of the camps. They do damage to you and give little gold and xp

Early on they give more gold than rift scuttler. Gromp, the lowest gold camp, gives 86 gold at level 1. Scuttle crab gives 70. All camps give more or less the same exp as crab throughout the entire game.

HammermancerMay 23, 20181 votes

Replace dragon with the alternating scuttle

Watch game go to shit

TheCodeisCupCakeMay 23, 20181 votes

At least WaterWalking might be used now xD

stone the blacksMay 24, 20181 votes

gotta 4d chess this shit and while the head for scuttles you gank opposite side of map or counter jg

JayBirdAdidasMay 23, 2018

Whilst I agree with the core principles in which you stated, I think you're reading too into it. I play jungle quite often (well not so much anymore, but enough) and my vision is primarily focussed on neutral objectives, such as dragon and baron. The scuttle is alright to have, but it's not a necessity all of the time. Yes, it sometimes defeats the purpose of jungling, but I usually opt to just ignore it and only get it when raptors are kicking my ass lol.