I honestly don't know if Vayne herself is the core problem with her balance at the moment

HateDaddy··12 votes·1,993 views

She has a pretty polarizing design, I don't think anyone questions that. But vayne is a champion who is supposed to be a late game terror and especially good against beefy targets, naturally with bruisers being dominant and even tanks still being good, that much makes sense. But at its core, why exactly is Vayne doing as well as she is when just 5-6 patches ago, she wasn't considered very good. What's changed?

I know her Q was buffed in 5.14 to have the CD begin upon launch of the attack as opposed to it hitting. That's more of a teamfight buff, which is debatable whether she needed it or not. Regardless, it doesn't suddenly make what's supposed to be her weak point, lane phase, any better. I know that ADCs have been nerfed and by default that raises her level of power but I'm still skeptical at best that these two things alone are the reasons shes gone from hardly being played to the best ADC by far in just two short patches.

I suspect two things could be at fault here, neither of which is something that should be addressed directly either.

Vayne is one of the view ADCs that rushes botrk, giving her a pretty decent chunk of sustain that often times the opposing ADC isn't going to have. This leaves you with effectively two options: try to poke her out or all-in her. The problem with option 1 is something I'll get to next but for now I'm gojng to cover option 2: vayne is really not an ADC you can all-in during lane phase, especially post 6. You're going to lose that every time because of final hour because holy shit, 30 AD at level 6 is massive. Not to mention the stealth, where in all probability you won't have a pink Ward for her at level 6 or so after. I think if Vayne does end up getting nerfed, this is where Riot needs to focus. Access to this kind of power on a champion that is supposed to be weak early and start to slowly scale into mid game is pretty crazy.

But before I go further, let me go into option 1 I mentioned above.

Option two is that poke supports are actually kind of bad at the moment. The best supports, in no particular order, are Alistar, Braum, Thresh and Janna. These are supports that are all good with Vayne, especially Janna because she makes Vaynes relatively weak 1-5 much safer. Alistar and Braum are extremely good at all-ins and Vayne is probably one of the best carries when it comes to going all-in, especially post 6. This likely isn't a coincidence. And in that same token, even though she is prone to chain CC and dying like any other carry, despite these all-in esque supports being good for her, they're hardly good against her.

Let me put it like this: imagine of Zyra, Sona, Etc were good? What could a Vayne do against that? She's outranged or completely incapable of matching the poke these champions are capable of dishing out pre 6, and they're not exactly supports you can all-in post 6 (lol just dive ZYRA). These are two examples of poke supports but I suspect this is part of the issue too because I've watched Vayne against Vel'Koz support about 50 different times now and Vayne has been absolutely crushed in lane because she has no answer to deal with that. So when she's good with all-in supports and good against them, it is a contributing factor. How much so? I'm not real sure.

I honestly believe Vayne being what she is late game is fine, much to my dismay and personal bias. But when Vayne is not having difficulties early, there is a problem. I don't think ADCs suddenly got too weak, I think that's more because of the support issue I touched on. But either way you put it, facing Vayne post 6 keeps you on pins and needles because you know if she has a heavy CC support, you can go from 100-0 at any moment. I think if you directly nerf her as opposed to letting this play out and see if the meta changes itself, reducing the bonus AD on final hour to something along the lines of 20-25 at rank 1 is a good start. Others have suggested removing her base damage on W but I think that would completely make her unviable because of how it would ruin her entirely until basically W has 3-4 points in it.

But yeah, I don't know. This is kind of what I suspect. Idk how much it is true.

44 Comments

Penns5 votes

Basically every adc/ support that beats her got nerfed/ is weak in the meta, tanks/ bruisers are meta which she can kite and kill, item 3153 is a broken item and LC$ kek.

Vekkna5 votes

Others have suggested removing her base damage on W but I think that would completely make her unviable because of how it would ruin her entirely until basically W has 3-4 points in it.

OK, so that's like...level 7? Unless "late game" is level 5, it should be alright for her to need 3 or 4 points in a skill before reaching a big power spike.

Personally, I think Vayne does not need nerfs to her end game. Right now the problem is that you can max either W or Q first and still have strong damage and strong mobility. That's the problem.

Make W weaker early and scale harder with rank. Make Q's cooldown longer and scale hard with rank. You can either be a mobility god OR a damage god in mid game, neither in early game, and both in late game.

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

OK, so that's like...level 7? Unless "late game" is level 5, it should be alright for her to need 3 or 4 points in a skill before reaching a big power spike.

Vayne maxes Q first in lane still

Personally, I think Vayne does not need nerfs to her end game. Right now the problem is that you can max either W or Q first and still have strong damage and strong mobility. That's the problem.

You still have to max Q first on her in lane, otherwise her trading is complete shit. But I do agree, I don't think her late game needs to be touched. You don't nerf a late game champions late game.

Make W weaker early and scale harder with rank. Make Q's cooldown longer and scale hard with rank. You can either be a mobility god OR a damage god in mid game, neither in early game, and both in late game.

I don't think you need to go that far honestly, just a nerf to level 1 ult is a good start imo

Zmuecat1 votes

Vayne's most frequently levels skills like this:

Q->W->E->W->W->R->stuff

At least this is according to champion.gg, It seems that the most frequently leveled and the most frequently winning skill order both follow the same early level skill order, then deciding to max Q or W depending on the situation. I'd like to see where you get the 'Vayne maxes Q in lane first" thing though, I'd like to fix any errors I make on my part.

Vekkna1 votes

Yep. I think ranking W first comes from seeing Thresh, Leona, Ali, Naut, Braum, etc. in every lane.

So I think that if Vayne can get that kind of damage just from ranking W (with no mana or gold cost), she should pay for it by having a long enough CD on Q that she can't Q to engage, chase you halfway down lane, and then use Q to turn and disengage.

Prospector Pete2 votes

Her E is a large part of the problem.

She has incredible safety and poke with this ability.

Godaren1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Prospector Pete,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4ixLUJ7o,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-09-11T21:07:54.723+0000)

Her E is a large part of the problem.

She has incredible safety and poke with this ability.

her q and ult invis is way more of a problem tristana has a much better peel with her ult but she is not played the rate vayne is

AtheosisX2 votes

I think it's a lot of little things, but the biggest factor was the buff to BotRK back in 5.8 that gave lifesteal off the bonus on-hit damage. That pushed Vayne over the top. That isn't to dismiss all the other issues, like her counters being nerfed etc, but I do think 5.8 is when Vayne started to emerge as a problem. Oh yeah, in 5.8 the build path for BotRK was improved as well which made Vayne's early game slightly better by extension.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

I think it's a lot of little things, but the biggest factor was the buff to BotRK back in 5.8 that gave lifesteal off the bonus on-hit damage. That pushed Vayne over the top. That isn't to dismiss all the other issues, like her counters being nerfed etc, but I do think 5.8 is when Vayne started to emerge as a problem. Oh yeah, in 5.8 the build path for BotRK was improved as well which made Vayne's early game slightly better by extension.

Yeah but she was still not nearly as dominant as she is now. It could easily be another contributing factor no doubt, but I suspect that's another part of the problem

AtheosisX1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah but she was still not nearly as dominant as she is now. It could easily be another contributing factor no doubt, but I suspect that's another part of the problem

She was actually. She started climbing in popularity and win rate with the arrival of Cinderhulk on the scene in 5.5, but it wasn't until the 5.8 buffs to BortRK (a result of Cinderhulk as well) that she became overpowered.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

She was actually. She started climbing in popularity and win rate with the arrival of Cinderhulk on the scene in 5.5, but it wasn't until the 5.8 buffs to BortRK (a result of Cinderhulk as well) that she became overpowered.

Wasnt that prior to some of the jinx and graves nerfs though? Like, I do remember this but I still remember her not being nearly as dominant as she is now

AtheosisX1 votes

{quoted}

Wasnt that prior to some of the jinx and graves nerfs though? Like, I do remember this but I still remember her not being nearly as dominant as she is now

I'm pretty sure they happened around the same time. The issue with focusing on that though is that Vayne only faces any one champ a small percentage of the time (and Jinx remains one of the few ADCs that does fairly well against her), while BotRK is a factor in all her games. So I think it's fairly safe to say that the BotRK buff had a big impact on her power level.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

I'm pretty sure they happened around the same time. The issue with focusing on that though is that Vayne only faces any one champ a small percentage of the time (and Jinx remains one of the few ADCs that does fairly well against her), while BotRK is a factor in all her games. So I think it's fairly safe to say that the BotRK buff had a big impact on her power level.

Oh as far as that goes, I don't disagree either. But I still think the biggest issue is final hour, especially at rank 1. Vayne doesn't exactly overwhelm you with true damage early and mid game, that's largely her calling card for late game against beefier targets (although it's still effective vs low HP targets). She just eats you up with AD steroids on Q and R.

AtheosisX1 votes

{quoted}

Oh as far as that goes, I don't disagree either. But I still think the biggest issue is final hour, especially at rank 1. Vayne doesn't exactly overwhelm you with true damage early and mid game, that's largely her calling card for late game against beefier targets (although it's still effective vs low HP targets). She just eats you up with AD steroids on Q and R.

I don't know, to me it just feels like she spikes too hard off of BotRK right now. The things you are referring to were that way when she was well below 50% win rate. They aren't new.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

I don't know, to me it just feels like she spikes too hard off of BotRK right now. The things you are referring to were that way when she was well below 50% win rate. They aren't new.

Of course not, but youre never going to have riot nerf botrk because of one champion. The best you do is nerf the interaction that's seemingly abusive with it, which is largely due to her spiking hard because of final hour and her Q and it's synergy with AS, not to mention the sticking power (and final hours bonus ms + her passive). Like I said, true damage isn't what Vayne wrecks you with early and mid game, it's the AD steroids she gets on Q and R.

AmazingGoat1 votes

The entire game is balanced around botrk. I don't think riot likes it, but it's really hard to change it without a lot of shockwaves. Expect botrk changes in preseason.

thepay32 votes

she should just get toned down a bit

Toastey2 votes

Cost of Cutlass also factors into the equation. She gets her first power spike 150 gold sooner than BF Sword ADC's, and she gets sustain + kite/chase with it, whereas BF just makes you do more damage.

HateDaddy9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Toasted Pigeon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4ixLUJ7o,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-09-11T21:36:30.803+0000)

Cost of Cutlass also factors into the equation. She gets her first power spike 150 gold sooner than BF Sword ADC's, and she gets sustain + kite/chase with it, whereas BF just makes you do more damage.

Yeah but that's not a terrible trade off, more damage is typically going to beat most champions out regardless of the sustain. This is where I think final hours bonus AD is the biggest offender because she goes from being at a disadvantage statistically (assuming her enemy AD buys a BF and she buys a cutlass) to an advantage instantly for a cheaper price.

Toastey2 votes

agreed

Divewing1 votes

Not only that, but she gets damage unreliant of crit chance, whereas basically every other ADC NEEDS to buy IE to keep up

Only Play Darius2 votes

Vayne's kit has always been a problem. Just that the two classes that kept her under control, caster ADC's Graves Lucian MissFortune Sivir and 100-0 instaburst assassins Leblanc Akali Katarina Nidalee, all got nerfed and as a result she doesn't really pay the price for falling behind anymore. Combined with repeated buffs to her core item item 3153 and armor nerfs across the board and you end up with the clusterfuck that is Vayne's current balance state.

VDc0zCqe0w1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4ixLUJ7o,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-09-11T23:43:08.783+0000)

Vayne's kit has always been a problem. Just that the two classes that kept her under control, caster ADC's Graves Lucian MissFortune Sivir all got nerfed

Sivir is not a caster nor does win vs Vayne in lane, actually Vayne is her worst matchup

Sivir is 90% AA-crit based, one single spell (Q) doesn't make you a caster ADC

Only Play Darius1 votes

Fact of the matter is Sivir could bully Vayne out of lane and her ult made her melee allies much harder to kite for Vayne, and she got nerfed multiple times.

VDc0zCqe0w1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4ixLUJ7o,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2015-09-12T19:22:58.983+0000)

Fact of the matter is Sivir could bully Vayne out of lane and her ult made her melee allies much harder to kite for Vayne, and she got nerfed multiple times.

no wtf? she could never bully Vayne out of the lane, maybe after rework when she was broken but not in S5, she hasn't got anything to bully her Q is easy to dodge as Vayne, Sivir's W is bad in 1vs1, spellshied doesn't work vs anything that is not condemn and even vs that it's quite lackluster.

She can boost get the toplaner/jungler to make them get her, but she can't do anything 1vs1.

windwolf7771 votes

The problem isn't her. The meta just happens to fit her. (Why KogMaw isn't played I wonder, but that's a different story

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

The problem isn't her. The meta just happens to fit her. (Why KogMaw isn't played I wonder, but that's a different story

Kog is played a lot competitively, he's not nearly as reliable in solo queue. He's also played a ton as an AP mid, which does take him away from bot lane some to boot.

Goodest Gamer1 votes

ive played all across the servers on different elos and hes barely played in diamond plat or gold.

windwolf7771 votes

Oh really? That's odd. I understand that he has AP scalings, but and only his ult has AD scalings, but last I heard of him he was an ADC. So why is he played mid when he's squishy and so gankable? (Sorry, the first part of my question was also why is/was Koggles played as an adc when he has nearly no ad scaling? Just a protect comp since he can deal so much damage?

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

Oh really? That's odd. I understand that he has AP scalings, but and only his ult has AD scalings, but last I heard of him he was an ADC. So why is he played mid when he's squishy and so gankable? (Sorry, the first part of my question was also why is/was Koggles played as an adc when he has nearly no ad scaling? Just a protect comp since he can deal so much damage?

Because he maxes E and just clears waves easily with little interaction. Once he gets items, his siege is ridiculous

He's played as an ADC because of his W and Qs passive. His W does max %HP magic damage and increased his range by a ton. His q passively gives him AS and is good for AP or AD because it shreds Mr and armor. As AD he's effectively impossible to itemize against and as AP he just shits out damage since all his skills have AP scaling with long range

windwolf7771 votes

Ah. Now that makes sense. Thanks! I might have to get void puppy for my next adc. Well, if they do end up nerfing Vayne. I only got her in s4 so I could have a tank buster lol.

EDIT: And what would be the typical item build for him? item 1001 item 3057 item 3153item 3031 item 3078 item 3046/item 3087 and a random +1?? Or has that changed?

Hayaishi21 votes

Vayne could use a rework to be honest, she can be described with every buzzword lol.

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

Maybe Riot can nerf BotRK and take out both Vayne and Devourer.

2nMdDVW9Nu1 votes

great post m8, covered a lot of issues with her and couldn't agree more.

YCitizenSnipsY1 votes

BoRK theory I agree with, support theory not so much. Sona and Zyra were both strong during season 3 and we know which adc got the championship skin that season. Also Zyra and Sona weren't particularly strong during season 4 and neither was Vayne. I don't think that the supports are the whats keeping her in check but rather the adc's. When both Graves and Lucian were the hot picks in bot Lane Vayne was no where to be seen, also we recently saw what happens when Vayne meets Draven (C9 vs TL) . Honestly there are no good lane bully adc's relevant. other than jinx who is a whole differentr issue.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

BoRK theory I agree with, support theory not so much. Sona and Zyra were both strong during season 3 and we know which adc got the championship skin that season. Also Zyra and Sona weren't particularly strong during season 4 and neither was Vayne. I don't think that the supports are the whats keeping her in check but rather the adc's. When both Graves and Lucian were the hot picks in bot Lane Vayne was no where to be seen, also we recently saw what happens when Vayne meets Draven (C9 vs TL) . Honestly there are no good lane bully adc's relevant. other than jinx who is a whole differentr issue.

Zyra and Sona were already nerfed and gone before Vayne flavor of the month hit in season 3. If memory serves correctly, the top tier supports at the time were Nami, Janna, Annie and obviously Thresh

YCitizenSnipsY1 votes

both Sona and Zyra were picked in games 2 & 3 between SKT and RYL. during the season 3 worlds final :/

i just don't think its a support issue, lane bullies aren't getting going quick enough to end the game before she reaches hyper carry status. which is why the other two popular adc's right now are jinx and trist, two other hyper carries with early games that aren't weak.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

both Sona and Zyra were picked in games 2 & 3 between SKT and RYL. during the season 3 worlds final :/

i just don't think its a support issue, lane bullies aren't getting going quick enough to end the game before she reaches hyper carry status. which is why the other two popular adc's right now are jinx and trist, two other hyper carries with early games that aren't weak.

Idk you're probably right honestly, I hardly remember s3 because I grinded so hard that season.

Either way, I think part of it is supports just because she's so damn good with tank supports while being good against them whereas on the flip, she's not good against poke supports but kind of meh with them.

It's quite a few things honestly but as I stated, i think the bigger thing here is final hour.

AmazingGoat1 votes

Relic shield.

Crett1 votes

WE SWEAR THIS ISN'T BECAUSE OF VAYNE: item 3144 Gold cost increased to 1550

Sohleks1 votes

People speak as is Bork is the most broken item ever, however I don't think that's the case if it still only frequents select on-hit based champions. People completely forget that it has been sneakily buffed twice recently-ish (improved build path from recurve bow, +active range increase)

Then there is the current tanky meta for Vayne to thrive, and nerfs to other ADCs

Vayne herself was never weak, however things happened and she suddenly surfaces too strong currently

AmazingGoat1 votes

Sustaining in lane is too easy, especially for melee supports. It makes little sense that braum, naut, or thresh with relic shield offer comparable healing to sona.

Ser Garland1 votes

"5-6 patches ago she wasn't considered very good." Try one year ago. Ever since the new Cinderhulk she's moved on from good, to necessarily viable.

Her "tank busting" identity is why her already extreme popularity has exploded into being present in 90 percent of all league games.

A waify laura croft with a derringer Crossbow who hunts vampires shouldn't have the identity of busting tanks. Her entire identity misrepresents her character and counteracts Riots new design for champions (Mini games and specific, niche roles) When Vayne's identity is you can One v One anyone in a Fighting Game Moba that is League of Legends, this creates a problem.

She needs a "villain mechanic" to justify nerfing her natural true damage.

Amelie1 votes

There's several things that have made Vayne strong. I honestly don't think she is broken on her own, but these changes made her much more difficult to deal with:

  • The Blade of the Ruined King changes
  • Caitlyn and other lane bullies nerfed
  • Removal of almost all Grevious Wounds (Miss Fortune in particular)
  • Poke supports nerfed (mainly Sona)
  • Tanks becoming really popular
  • Tank/engage supports becoming popular, making poke supports less effective

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