PSA to people making balance posts using only statistics.

Marshbouy··11 votes·855 views

(as a general rule of thumb. As woonstruck pointed out there are considerably more factors to game balance so if you want a smarter guy's opinion go ask him) A champions winrate is a useless statistic if you don't call the others into account. For instance karthus top had a 68% winrate earlier in the year but he had an incredibly tiny playrate, something like 500 games. Looking at winrate only you would think "what the fuck, that's broken AF" but then you realize that he had

  1. only 500 games
  2. an avg of 171 games(per karthus player) and understood that his winrate was over inflated.

An example of detecting an OP champ based of statistics would look something like 54% winrate 15% playrate 25 avg games played

That means that not only are they being picked very very frequently, they are also being played effectively by players with low experience on them. Next time you see 56% winrate illaoi make sure they have a good playrate with a sample size of at least 5k games, preferably more.

19 Comments

Hrd2H1t4 votes

For example Sion support has a 55% winrate but a 0.5% playrate

Reshaos3 votes

Why are they nerfing Akali so hard in PBE then?

Current statistics for Akali: Win Rate: 48.05% Play Rate: 1.59%

Abysmal play rate and below 50% win rate. Riot is still choosing to completely gut her.

RIP Akali 2016.

Bârd3 votes

And for that matter, why does Taric Q suck so much?

Does that seem at all unrelated to what you are talking about?

Congratulations.

Oh, and by the way, the Akali rework isn't a nerf. We've been through this before with Ahri; adding mobility, even at a seemingly hefty price, is huge.

LankPants2 votes

Oh, and by the way, the Akali rework isn't a nerf.

Want to explain how it's not a nerf?

Her Passive on average deals less damage over the space of two auto attacks than it would have before. If you hit R+Q+E+AA with a Gunblade it will always heal for less.

Her W gains a 200 range dash, it also lasts half as long for most of the game and loses its placement flexibility. You almost never want to cast W ontop of yourself as Akali, you want to cast it where you're going to run. Casting it ontop of yourself means no more escape shrouds with the slow, no more scouting and no more using shroud to help CS.

Her E loses damage in any scenario where you survive more than 1 second. The only time where it gains damage is over a very long engagement where Damage/Energy becomes more of an issue than Damage/Second, but even then it's iffy.

Her R is a straight damage and CD nerf.

We've been through this before with Ahri; adding mobility, even at a seemingly hefty price, is huge.

Akali's losing mobility, not gaining. Her W has a 200 range blink being added, sure but with a cast time of 0.35 seconds Akali can damn near walk 200 units in that time. She's also getting locked out of her ult for an extra half second at level 11 and an extra second at level 16 and is losing up to 4 seconds on shroud which is up to 6 extra speed bursts, although realistically the cap is probably 3.

Bârd1 votes

It's not a nerf. It's a slight playstyle change.

Her passive is no longer just a mass of numbers that amounts to "hit harder and heal a bit". Now, instead of sitting in a fight spamming your spells in hopes that your spellvamp keeps you alive, you have to dip in and out of combat. Early game that can be a pain, but later you will be able to throw out your damaging passive proc every couple of seconds (A 4 second cooldown that starts on your first auto makes it possible to time it such that you line up two damage procs in 3 consecutive autos)

The W change is an increase to both her power level and skill cap. That "200 range blink" (It's 250, by the way) turns this spell into one of the most potent escape tools in the game. You can blink over walls with this ability, which while cool is only a part of its value. Because of the invisibility, enemies have no way of knowing where within the shroud you went; should they persue over the wall, or did you bluff the wall jump? Jumping certain walls (such as the raptor camp) can be done such that you barely clip the edge of the shroud, but the shroud itself remains out of sight, allowing you to do your best Teemo impression for up to 8 seconds. Oh, and the movement speed. With the combination of a 100% speed buff (Which no longer decays, but persists only so long as you remain in the shroud), a blink, and a dash (should there be targets to dash to), you are a very elusive ninja. Oh, and you mentioned a 0.35 second cast time. Boo hoo, they increased it by 0.1 seconds.

Her E does, indeed, do less damage in a long fight. The thing is, Riot doesn't WANT Akali to be able to stay in a long fight, spamming this shit (Do you not remember the terrors of tank Akali?). It is better for what they want her to do.

I agree that the R change is a slight hit to her lategame, but you skimmed over one important change to it; you now get 3 charges instantly upon leveling the spell. This makes her level 6 powerspike much greater.

At worst, they slapped tank Akali players on the wrist.

LankPants2 votes

At worst, they slapped tank Akali players on the wrist.

Tank Akali is the least effected by these changes. She's the most likely to get her passive off multiple times, the most likely to benefit from the heal and she's able to rank shroud second, so she gets the least fucked over by shroud changes. The only way to play Akali if these changes go through will be tank, even more so than now.

Her passive is no longer just a mass of numbers that amounts to "hit harder and heal a bit". Now, instead of sitting in a fight spamming your spells in hopes that your spellvamp keeps you alive, you have to dip in and out of combat. Early game that can be a pain, but later you will be able to throw out your damaging passive proc every couple of seconds (A 4 second cooldown that starts on your first auto makes it possible to time it such that you line up two damage procs in 3 consecutive autos)

You heal for 0 because the heal procs first, before you take damage then deal about 2 old AAs worth of damage after already attacking 2 times. It's just strictly worse than Akali's old passive, you also lose your bonus damage towards last hitting which makes Akali's garbage AA animation more prominent.

The W change is an increase to both her power level and skill cap. That "200 range blink" (It's 250, by the way) turns this spell into one of the most potent escape tools in the game. You can blink over walls with this ability, which while cool is only a part of its value. Because of the invisibility, enemies have no way of knowing where within the shroud you went; should they persue over the wall, or did you bluff the wall jump? Jumping certain walls (such as the raptor camp) can be done such that you barely clip the edge of the shroud, but the shroud itself remains out of sight, allowing you to do your best Teemo impression for up to 8 seconds.

Sorry to break your narrative, but Akali's new W is far easier to use. You no longer have to think about shroud placement at all. You just plop it down on top of yourself and blink in a very obvious direction. You also can't wait in the corner of your shroud as you suggest because this is a thing. Finally, 4 seconds, not 8. Assassin Akali cannot afford to start putting points into W until level 14, so for most of the game her shroud has a pathetic 4 second duration.

Oh, and the movement speed. With the combination of a 100% speed buff (Which no longer decays, but persists only so long as you remain in the shroud), a blink, and a dash (should there be targets to dash to), you are a very elusive ninja. Oh, and you mentioned a 0.35 second cast time. Boo hoo, they increased it by 0.1 seconds.

Oh right, the non decaying MS which does nothing because I can't place the shroud in front of me, it has to be on top. You could cover the distance between the centre of the shroud and the edge of the shroud in the duration of the MS boost before, you don't even have to do that anymore. The non-decaying MS boost is basically worthless.

Her E does, indeed, do less damage in a long fight. The thing is, Riot doesn't WANT Akali to be able to stay in a long fight, spamming this shit (Do you not remember the terrors of tank Akali?). It is better for what they want her to do.

This is wrong. Her E does less damage in any fight over 1.2 seconds, in a long fight, longer than 5 seconds the energy efficiency of her new E starts to kick in. Basically she uses her E the same amount of times in a long fight because the energy constraints on E mean that you can't just spam it out as much as you want.

I agree that the R change is a slight hit to her lategame, but you skimmed over one important change to it; you now get 3 charges instantly upon leveling the spell. This makes her level 6 powerspike much greater.

Losing half of the ratio, a quater of the base (worse at lower ranks) and doubling the delay between ults is a 'slight' hit. That's basically half of the abilities power, gone. And sure you gain all your stacks instantly, but they're literally half the damage they used to be. In the early game what you really want stacks past your first for is damage, now you have to burn 2 stacks with a 2 second delay to deal the same damage as if you ulted once before the gutting.

WoonStruck2 votes

There are several champions that have gotten heavy nerfs for having a high win% and an extremely low play%.

You're basically glazing over what could be relevant information. Even if there's 200+ average player games on that champion, a 53%+ winrate can still easily suggest a problem, though it does not by any means guarantee it.

Winrate+playrate+avg games only represents what is blatantly over-tuned. There are still many other factors to take into account.

Marshbouy1 votes

check my post now

WoonStruck3 votes

I wouldn't necessarily say I'm smarter, though. I was just stating that there is no catch-all for balance issues on either end of the spectrum.

But you're right, people should not whine about win-rate alone.

Who was saying Illaoi has a 56% win-rate?

Marshbouy1 votes

I wouldn't necessarily say I'm smarter

I'm just saying you're smarter because half the time im in a bad mood and use terrible arguments while you don't.

Who was saying Illaoi has a 56% win-rate?

like 2-1 month(s) ago. Right after some patch champion.gg and other sites were reporting 56% winrate illaoi but she had a tiny amount of games played.

WoonStruck2 votes

{quoted}

I'm just saying you're smarter because half the time im in a bad mood and use terrible arguments while you don't.

With how the boards are, can't really blame anyone for that. I find myself doing the same thing occasionally lol.

like 2-1 month(s) ago. Right after some patch champion.gg and other sites were reporting 56% winrate Illaoi but she had a tiny amount of games played.

I would consider the fact that she's a juggernaut and people know not to pick her into lanes she'll lose. If she doesn't get set back early, she takes off more than Darius could even dream of. You could make the same argument about Darius, but Darius is much easier during early game, known, and practically a meme, so his popularity prevents similar circumstances.

Marshbouy1 votes

With how the boards are, can't really blame anyone for that. I find myself doing the same thing occasionally lol.

lol

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

Sion support does... but people cry over janna

GULAG 4 U1 votes

It's quite humble of you to call him smarter huh.

Arkale1 votes

Tell me about it...

Requiemsfire1 votes

A good way to measure a champion's power is to compare their winrate vs games played to other champions. Theoretically a champion that is really strong would have a much more consistent win rate in the hands of someone who is dedicated.

Serika Zero1 votes

as a general rule of thumb, if statistics were worthless, they wouldn't be used, they wouldn't even exist

That means, using statistics such as win rates is useful. Only an idiot would claim otherwise.

But to understand exactly what those statistics (win rate) in this case say more precisely than (the players are winning a lot with this champion) more variables need to be analyzed. Which is where I agree with you. But calling win rates statistics bullshit is in itself bullshit

doiminat0r36001 votes

For example old Yorick had a 100% win rate one week.. Granted only 3 games were played by the same player BUT DAMMIT HE WAS OP

More from Gameplay

More by Marshbouy