Deathfire Touch still seems awful unless your name is Brand

Quepha··37 votes·9,827 views

At level 1 the difference doesn't seem so bad, it takes about 4 seconds for Deathfire Touch to equal a Thunderlord's decree proc. But then you level up and Thunderlord's almost doubles in damage while DFT gains nothing at all. Most examples I look at other than level 1 seem to put Deathfire Touch at requiring 10 full seconds to equal the damage of a single Thunderlord's, and single target spells are very rare in this game so that generally means landing 5 separate spells and letting them tick to full damage in the 20 seconds before Thunderlord's would come off cooldown, and this is only when taking the math right after going back to buy items meaning Deathfire is at its strongest (because almost all its damage comes from raw bonus AD/AP instead of levels).

I haven't even begun to talk about all the inherent weaknesses of DoT damage over burst. DoTs are telegraphed and the opponent can easily use a defensive cooldown to barrier or heal before it kills them, even if it would kill the opponent they still have time to fight back and turn it into a trade, and it doesn't have that frightening effect burst damage has where the opponent realizes "oh no my health is low I need to back off" even though you've just blown your cooldowns and would actually lose the trade if the fight went on for longer, and this effect is incredibly useful at winning lane which sets your team up for a snowball that will win the game. With all those negatives it seems like DFT should be the de-facto choice for overall damage to make up for it, yet it seems to take a lot of work to even get it to deal an equal amount of damage with Thunderlord's.

I'm not really sure what Riot was planning with the math on this one. It seems like they either think Thunderlord's is WAY harder to proc than it actually is or they want this to be a keystone that is only good for mages with very long DoTs (I think only Brand, Malzahar, and MAYBE Swain) and to any other mage the Ferocity tree is just supposed to be some kind of newbie trap.

The two things that seem the strangest about this mastery are the total lack of level scaling (or even base damage in general, 1 damage is something that they put on joke passives like sunglasses giving you a bonus against Leona because it NEVER makes a difference) and the 50% duration penalty for AoE spells when almost every spell in this game is classified as AoE if it is even capable of hitting more than one target (even things like Lux Q because it's capable of hitting two targets). Why is this mastery for champions that generally scale better with levels only scaling with gold? Who is going to become broken if they get full duration on an AoE spell when this mastery is still approximately 10x more useful on Brand than any other champion could hope for?

What might happen that would really make me mad is that Riot might end up saying something in the future along the lines of "No one took Deathfire Touch so players must not like DoTs" to justify their general stance that DoTs should be nerfed or removed from champion kits whenever they need a way to remove power from a kit that currently has them. This mastery just seems straight-up bad from any angle and that's the reason no one picks it.

64 Comments

Velasan11 votes

The issue with DFT is also it's biggest glaring problem. It's not actually better on a lot of DOT mages. Since thunderlords procs on dots (which it honestly shouldn't.. I always assumed half the point was that thunderlords was for bursty combos and deathfire for dot's) most people take it even if you are going swain/vladamir etc.

In reality it's so heavily skewed right now that unless you're specifically Malzahar or Brand where you have a long lasting dot (like... longest in the game lasting) you're probably better off with thunderlords.

They've nerfed a lot of the way DFT interacts with DOT's in general, and continue to pump it's usage to AD users with the high AD ratio (which is also weird because only a handful of AD users want to use death fire... see pantheon). Thunderlords also has the double pen mastery right above it. Since both masteries are universally useful they become the automatic go to.

The fix? Change thunderlords to not go off on dot's and change DFT to have better AP scaling and still work on dot's but low base damage (so when you have it at lvl 1 you aren't just frying off your enemies entire life bar).

warmcorntortilla1 votes

This is also good because if you give it less base damage and more AP scaling, it benefits champions like Malzahar and Brand less, who tend to build more magic pen heavy builds than flat AP.

doombotMECHA1 votes

not to mention that they may also be saccing ap for utility in rylai's

qwelles4 votes

yea deathfire touch is trash right now

ChaoticPinecone3 votes

I still use Deathfire on Malzahar. Im rarely going to walk up and put my W under them, as it generally takes too much mana for meager damage (even with the Thunderlords).

Depending on the matchup, ill go deathfire on Teemo. If i can get a lot of autoattack harass off, ill go Thunderlords just since i want the hybrid pen (with the hybrid pen runes, of course).

Ill probably go Deathfire on Singed as well, though more for the better-scaling Magic Pen. The build of RoA, Rylais, and Liandries offers a solid amount of AP, but not enough pen without the Sorcs or Void Staff.

Zyra support i go Thunderlords for lane dominance, but mid ill get DFT for the rylais/liandries combo for teamfights.

I would prefer Deathfire on Vladimir but 45% CDR is too good to give up.

Doc Thulhu1 votes

I use deathfire on Singed all the time. Don't go ROA though build item 2031 and 2 item 1082 into item 3116. Watch all those tough top lane juggernauts melt before you.

AuraSilver2 votes

It's good on select champs. As you mentioned Brand being one of them. It works well with Swain, Vel'koz (because of his ult), mid Morgana, Vladimir. There are probably others. A lot of these champs appreciate the magic penetration the tree brings as well, and for them its a better option than Thunderlord's. But it is only better on a select few.

Odinakos1 votes

Morgana prefers Thunderlords for the early game. Easy proc with W and provides her some additional burst to offer enouph kill potential. If your plan is late game Deathfire is better because you can easily multiproc it. Still a 65-35 for Thunderlords.

Sneakyy XD2 votes

{quoted}

Deathfire Touch still seems awful

Do you truly believe a mastery seeming good is more important than it being good?

Quepha13 votes

{quoted}

Do you truly believe a mastery seeming good is more important than it being good?

I'm trying to determine if it actually is awful. All I can really go off of is the math (which looks bad) and how it feels in game (even worse than the math would indicate). The only other source would be an actual sample but Riot does not give very good tools to track where all your damage is coming from in the game so I can't really get any of those.

Sneakyy XD2 votes

{quoted}

I'm trying to determine if it actually is awful. All I can really go off of is the math (which looks bad) and how it feels in game (even worse than the math would indicate) as Riot does not give very good tools to track where all your damage is coming from in the game.

If your math for DFT is looking bad, you're heavily fucking up your math.

Quepha15 votes

{quoted}

If your math for DFT is looking bad, you're heavily fucking up your math.

Level 14 champion with 248 AP Thunderlord's Decree: 140 + 24.8 damage = 164.8 damage in an instant burst. DFT: 2 + 15.5 = 17.5 damage per second.

Length of time for DFT to equal the damage from a Thunderlord's Decree: 9.4 seconds.

That's almost half of Thunderlord's Decree's entire cooldown and requires you to land 5x Aoe damage abilities AND it's damage over time instead of an up-front burst AND that's just to hit the break even point.

That looks pretty bad. If you have some math to back up your statement, I would appreciate seeing it.

Sire Hippington4 votes

If you have some math to back up your statement, I would appreciate seeing it.

I think he looked at the lvl 18 with fullgear stats, though at the current gamepace those are not very relevant. but at lvl 18 with 700 ap, thunderlords does 250 damage, DFT does 46dps, so 5-6 sec till break even, potentially ~3.7 times the dps of thunderlods Those numbers look more reasonable - if one was able to sustain the dft dot, which few champs actually can do.

people kinda get blindet by the high ratios and forget how much impact base damage has.

Koechophe2 votes

I stopped listening at "with 700 ap". Seriously dude, that almost never happens. 500 is considered the reasonable end-game amount, unless your name is viegar.

Oshlet2 votes

You just ain't doin' it right.

Little Stick Man2 votes

Malzahar

KnightOfEloHell2 votes

I think DFT is for Champs who can keep it up.

I main Mord now. I've played around with other mastery combos, and noticed DFT is essential for how I play Mordekaiser. Thunder lords takes to long to proc for me, and in teamfights, where I normally am,DFT Is better.

Another thing to consider is that Ferocity tree typically has more damage than the other two, so where DFT may lack, you get back in damage in another way.

It's cool to me how you can tailor your masters to your playstyle AND your champ.

For example, I used to main Olaf. Fob is good and resonates very well with Olaf's kit BUT Grasp of the Undying and focusing on LIFE STEAL AND REGENERATION is much better for Olaf. Build f ull lifestyle except for a resistance to their greatest threat that can also help you (SV or DMP)

Anyways, thunder lords seems strong early and weak late. DFT is the oppisite. I say this from playing WITH these mastered AND against them.

Twitch Chat2 votes

the half duration on AoE makes it so bad

Titanium702 votes

Well the biggest issue I have with DFT is its scaling.. because this masterie scales great into lategame. NO CD and procced on anyone by everything. thats great.. BUT this wont help at all if you lost so much gold in laning due to TLD! I have no problem with scaling masteries, but I want to feel rewarded if I survived against the superior TLD.

This game is so much about snowballing - that's why (for example) TLD-Swain has a over all higher winrate than DFT-Swain.. which is really.. really sad. Because affecting 3 people permantly with DFT in Late is amazing! OFC that doesnt matter if a Teamfight is decided in 3 seconds.

Sire Hippington2 votes

I agree, the two core issues that limited it's use to only a few champs are the massively reduced damage for aoe, and the facct that it's all scaleing no basedamage. The reduced duration on aoe makes it only usefull on casters that have low cd singletarget spells, or dots, and both of those are actully pretty rare. The lack of basevalues makes it only usefull on glasscannons and aditionally rather snowbally.

An otherr problem for me is that dft is for dps, so sustained imoact in a fight as caster, and the coresponding stat for me would be cdr. However, i can't take the cdr masterie if i go for dft as it's in the wronf tree...I really don't think that keeping the 'tree-systerm' works well with the new masteries. rather liimit it to x points on tier y, so i can pick a tank keystone and use the %pen if i want to, or get the tenacity and fervor of battle...

NazZomLord2 votes

Amumu Brand Malzahar Rumble Teemo Velkoz VladimirSwain Are all currently making pretty good use of DFT touch, mostly relies on their play style from what ive seen. Tlord is for the people who just want to poke and get out while touch can really just let you lay into the enemy.

Shiyo Kozuki2 votes

Thunderlords is the difference between winning or losing your lane. You can easily win lane against someone without it when you have it.

Thunderlords needs removed from the game entirely, it cannot be balanced. It's far too strong early game and gives too much of an advantage in the laning phase.

There's no place for masteries like DFT with thunderlords in the game.

ARequestOfDeath2 votes

dft is good for dot champions likeBrand Malzahar Swain

Streeton1 votes

the whole idea of deathfire touch doesnt seem balanced

Quepha2 votes

{quoted}

the whole idea of deathfire touch doesnt seem balanced

I'm of the opinion that Thunderlord's is the unbalance-able one. It's generally stronger in the early game, it's burst damage that gives burst champions more kill potential and gives sustained damage champions trades that are actually threatening. I just don't see how Riot is going to get Thunderlord's to not dominate since it's clearly the mastery that wins you your lane and winning your lane is so insanely important to winning the game.

Abyssphere1 votes

I don't know why everyone tries to compare DFT and TLD in terms of single target burst. No shit it takes a while for DFT to outdo TLD on one person - you can put DFT on 5 people at once.

If you're all about blowing up one person then go for TLD. DFT is supposed to be for spreading lots of damage among everyone and it does that well.

Quepha4 votes

{quoted}

I don't know why everyone tries to compare DFT and TLD in terms of single target burst. No shit it takes a while for DFT to outdo TLD on one person - you can put DFT on 5 people at once.

If you're all about blowing up one person then go for TLD. DFT is supposed to be for spreading lots of damage among everyone and it does that well.

Reasons:

  1. Everyone's first goal in the game is to do as well in lane as possible, and you only have one lane opponent, maybe two. Planning to lose lane basically means you're planning to be dead weight to your team.

  2. Keystones tend to be a bigger part of your power budget in the early game than the late (at least, thunderlord's is). In the late game you have all of your ratios and base damages and items that toss on even more and your keystones are just a drop in the bucket. You might as well take the one that's going to be the most useful when it matters.

  3. Single target burst damage is more valuable than AoE sustained damage because it is much better at killing targets and death is the greatest CC of all. If you can focus down one target then it's a 5v4 and your team has the advantage no matter what you had to do to accomplish it. Even an assassin diving and surely dying themselves is advantageous for their team because they can kill the most high priority target that would have been the most useful carry in a team fight.

  4. Let's say you land the perfect aoe. Somehow the enemy is all playing cards around a tiny poker table in the dragon pit with a stealth ward under it that none of them know about and you land a frikkin' 5 man aoe skillshot. You just broke even with a thunderlords proc against a single target (when it is capable of hitting two or more targets itself). Absolutely unreasonably PERFECT circumstances after you've lost your lane to someone with thunderlord's and have been an item behind for 20 minutes and you barely break even.

Abyssphere4 votes

{quoted}

Reasons:

  1. Everyone's first goal in the game is to do as well in lane as possible, and you only have one lane opponent, maybe two. Planning to lose lane basically means you're planning to be dead weight to your team.

  2. Keystones tend to be a bigger part of your power budget in the early game than the late (at least, thunderlord's is). In the late game you have all of your ratios and base damages and items that toss on even more and your keystones are just a drop in the bucket. You might as well take the one that's going to be the most useful when it matters.

  3. Let's say you land the perfect aoe. Somehow the enemy is all playing cards around a tiny poker table in the dragon pit with a stealth ward under it that none of them know about and you land a frikkin' 5 man aoe skillshot. You just broke even with a thunderlords proc against a single target (when it is capable of hitting two or more targets itself). Absolutely unreasonably PERFECT circumstances after you've lost your lane to someone with thunderlord's and have been an item behind for 20 minutes and you barely break even.

  1. Not taking TLD doesn't mean you automatically lose lane - I don't know where you get the idea that you need to take every possible advantage early game to stand a chance of not feeding but it's not true, and in the event that you lose lane, DFT is a stronger choice than TLD (which you will never, ever get. Accepting a weaker early game in exchange for a better late is something people do all the time, whether it be with champions or items - it can apply to masteries.

  2. Says what? Pretty much every mastery scales to be relevant throughout the entire game. I can't actually name a mastery that falls off to a noticeable degree aside from Thunderlord's and even that is being changed to be weaker early and stronger late next patch - keystones useful throughout the game, so picking one that scales well is a completely viable option.

  3. Math on Deathfire is really complicated for a random argument but you 1. underestimate its late game damage (at 700 AP it would outdamage a one person TLD proc upon hitting three people), 2. understate the ease at which DFT is applied compared to TLD (it's not relevant that 3 damage procs are needed for the latter?) and 3. massively understate the constant uptime that DFT has (TLD does more burst because it's the burst mastery - if the fight goes on for any reasonable length DFT will massively outdo it)

It is possible that DFT is mathematically underpowered in comparison to TLD, but the idea that it's got to outburst the "I want more burst" mastery to be useful or that picking a mastery that isn't the strongest early game is an automatic loss is ridiculous. This mastery got people nerfed because it was too good with them - it's clearly not conceptually unusable. You speak in such absolutes that I'm pretty sure that if TLD gets nerfed to the point of not being the best you'll make a thread about how it's inherently terrible because it takes too much effort in comparison to DFT and makes you automatically lose every late game team fight.

Quepha4 votes

{quoted}

but the idea that it's got to outburst the "I want more burst" mastery.

It's impossible for it to outburst thunderlord's because it has zero burst. To make up for that it has to outDAMAGE it which you currently have to really stretch to accomplish.

Maybe if games were slower than they currently are, that 700 AP mage would be a reasonable situation to build around, but games simply don't last long enough for that to happen unless you're already winning, which I think is partially a product of Thunderlord's crazy strength.

Itadaki Seieki1 votes

I use it on Urgot, it's actually quite strong.

Along with Noxian + Acid Hunter spamming + DFT = A kill early game.

Late game it's just icing on the cake.

Meep Man1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bard to Master,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4aq0A9GA,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2016-01-19T16:07:48.291+0000)

I use it on Urgot, it's actually quite strong.

Along with Noxian + Acid Hunter spamming + DFT = A kill early game.

Late game it's just icing on the cake.

Gives Urgot an actually viable late game in my opinion damage wise since it essentially increases the AD Ratio on his poison by around 75% or so.

Itadaki Seieki1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4aq0A9GA,comment-id=00140000,timestamp=2016-01-19T16:12:57.621+0000)

Gives Urgot an actually viable late game in my opinion damage wise since it essentially increases the AD Ratio on his poison by around 75% or so.

Not to mention it also procs on ticks of Noxian Corrosive Charge.

It's amazing to watch someone get E'd into Three Q's chunking them to half at level 5.

TeemoXNidalee1 votes

You can apply DFT to all enemies during a teamfight, TLD only to one enemy every 25~15 seconds. If you think about someone like vlad, spamming his E inside the enemy team, DFT will easily outdamage TLD.

DeathBurst1 votes

1st point: Deathfire is better in team fights.

  • Deathfire works on everybody, all the time.
  • Thunderlord works on 1 people + a tiny AoE every 20 seconds.
  • ==> So if you wanna focus a priority target, TL is still better, but if you just wanna increase your DPS, in any team-fight DFT will deal more damage.

2nd point: Deathfire has better stats scaling.

  • Thunderlord scales well with levels, but it has only a 10% AP / 30% BonusAD ratio
  • DFT has a 3.125% AP / 7% BonusAD ratio for each 0.5 second tick
  • ==> Level 18 (the most favorable situation for TLD) with 513 AP (i.e. Athene+Zhonya+Luden+Rabadon without Runes or Masteries) you need 7 sec to deal as much damage with DFT than with TLD, and remember it can work on many targets at a time. Level 12, it's barely 5 seconds.
  • ==> For AD, the situation is similar. With 200 BonusAD, you need 6 seconds level 12, 8 seconds level 18. Probably not good enough on ADCs that do not build a lot of raw AD, preferring AS and Crits. But really interesting for any AD Caster.
DeathBurst1 votes

I keep saying it, but the problem with TLD is that it is too good in early game. DFT outscale it in late game, because of the better stat scaling and the multi-target factor, but if TLD let you snowball your lane in early, you don't need DFT in late game.

LimpingWólf1 votes

Deathfire does not scale it only adds 8 flat dmg no matter your lvl. (always adds 60% of bonus AD and 25% AP) percents are not scaling.)

Thunderlords adds 10 flat dmg per level. (always adds 30% AD, and 10% of AP).

(you leave out the extra 180 dmg you get from thunderlords scaling at lvl 18).

Point being if you buy 0 AD 0 AP all the way to lvl 18. Deathfires Touch has 0 scaling and its a keystone that does not scale. It has no real scaling, as to where Thunderlords will still deal 180 dmg from the 10 flat dmg scaling per level.

Deathfires percentages are higher OK? this doesnt mean much when it is a dot effect and every tick is reduced by MR. making your math even more wrong.

lets make a game with both of those 7 items. you hit me once with DFT and ill hit you with TLD and well see who has more HP after 4 seconds...

magic pole1 votes

DFT seems better if you can consistently apply AoE damage

but yeah it takes a while to get there, so the added lane pressure from TLD seems more reliable and gets to work earlier

ferocity is just lacking all over imo. The 5% scaling damage mastery is great, problem is it is useless early game and this meta is all about snowballing early and winning mid game before a lot of these masteries in ferocity really become useful.

doombotMECHA1 votes

dft is still so much better for urgot. 1.35 ratio on errant qs is an incredible ratio. same with rumble

Paroe3 votes

{quoted}

dft is still so much better for urgot. 1.35 ratio on errant qs is an incredible ratio. same with rumble

Its actually 8+0.60AD+0.25AP.

DFT Is, by and far, an AD caster thing.

Aatrox Akali LeeSinYorick Zed Basically any single target AD champion with non AoE damage is capable of using DFT to its fullest.

However, thunderlords helps win lane MUCH more than DFT since DFT is much more powerful in the mid game. Making it work the same always, and getting RID of the stupid damage reductions for AoE/Dots would go a really long way to making DFT actually good.

LimpingWólf1 votes

you need to remove Atrox from that. As he is far from being an AD caster, his cool downs are to long, and his W does not count as an ability as it is his main source of dmg and sustain.

Dandymann1 votes

Singed

Nekusen1 votes

a problem is Thunderlord's being too easy to proc, i think they should make it more assassin oriented by either increasing it's cooldown, or making it only proc if the damage would kill the target (tweaking damage)

DFT is not even good on DOT champs right now, as the effect for DOTs only damages for 1 second (instead of 4), which means that every DOT that lasts less than 4 seconds deal less damage than normal spells, and there aren't many (if any) DoTs that last 5+ secs.

xxxDogmanxxx1 votes

I actually like Deathfire Touch on bruisers with low cooldown gap closers. Think about it. Say you (as a Xin Zhao or Rengar for instance) jump on a Quinn or a Vayne, they'll immediately knock you back, right? Well, guess who got more damage in from that one trade? The guy with the unprocced Thunderlord's Decree, or the guy that had Deathfire Grasp? Suppose you do proc Thunderlord's Decree and they survive your initial burst and run away. Thunderlord's isn't doing anymore damage than it already has, but Deathfire Touch is still going. Oh, they're trying to recall? Guess which skill interrupts that? Oh, the enemy killed you with fifty health left? Guess which skill will avenge you? Deathfire Touch is pretty damn useful.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

I actually like Deathfire Touch on bruisers with low cooldown gap closers.

If you have a low cooldown gap closer you just go in again and successfully proc thunderlord's for more damage than that dft proc.

xxxDogmanxxx1 votes

Thunderlord's has a 20 second cooldown. Deathfire touch has a four second cooldown.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Thunderlord's has a 20 second cooldown. Deathfire touch has a four second cooldown.

and you still need to land deathfire touch three times to equal one thunderlord's proc.

xxxDogmanxxx1 votes

Yeah, guess who can do that though? Champions with low cooldown gap closers.

LimpingWólf1 votes

champions with gap closers, do not play with DFT as Thunderlords, Fervor simply are better suited. Low cool down gap closers, Irelia Xin maybe wukong. not sure on what your considering as low cooldown. But most of them need to trade and peel rather than trade and stay and probably get cheesed on.

Sohleks1 votes

A little bit of level scaling might help it even at the cost of some item scaling.

Both fervor and thunderlords scale nicely with levels.

Quepha1 votes

Get out of my year-old thread.

More from Gameplay

More by Quepha