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The fact that Vayne isn't even being considered for nerfs when her stats are so absurd is sad really

FalconPawwwwnch··120 votes·24,341 views

She's picked in almost 35-40% of all games in Diamond win around a 52% win rate. She's also banned more and more now because high elo players are realizing exactly how disgusting she is currently.

"She only stomps low elo"

Except her win rate increases from 50% in bronze to 51/52% in Diamond http://www.lolking.net/champions/vayne&region=all&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=diamond#statistics

"She is very hard to play" Except people who have 1 Vayne game played nearly win half their games. An actual hard champ to play is someone like Azir who goes from 40% to 55% http://champion.gg/champion/vayne

"She's only good in solo queue" Except she's been picked FIFTY times in competitive matches JUST in August of 2015, which, mind you, is only halfway over. http://lol.esportspedia.com/wiki/Vayne/Match_History

"Vayne has low range" She has average range, 550.

"When I say Vayne's range is low I mean her skills, she has no skills to extend while champions like Lucian/Sivir do" Except Champions like Sivir and Lucian are worse in duels and less mobile than Vayne is, not to mention they have 50 less AA range. If they didn't have some aoe damage/poke then Vayne would be better than them in every category

"Vayne has a weak early game" She wins over half her games from 0-25 minutes http://champion.gg/champion/vayne

These excuses don't hold water anymore. She's a priority pick in every region now, she's very popular in solo queue in all elo ranges, and she has no weakness currently. Her early game weakness has NEVER been true, she always has had an absurd safety net in lane due to a dash + knockback, and she can bully most melee champions in lane.

Something has to be done about her, she shouldn't be able to beat melee champions 1v1 and in teamfights while also not losing to ranged champions. There is no way to counterplay Vayne as a melee champion, and it's been this way since bork was added to the game. You can't 1v1 her, you can't outplay her CC or damage, and you're basically useless vs her

194 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoir82 votes

The fact that Vayne isn't even being considered for nerfs when her stats are so absurd is sad really

Where did we say this? Just talking around the office, that's really not the impression I get. If you had said, "The fact that Vayne isn't getting nerfed in 5.16 is sad really," then that's more reasonable. I can assure that in the last few days I've had several conversations about Vayne that weren't just on the boards.

Is she getting changes in 5.16? No. However, that doesn't necessarily mean we aren't aware of the community sentiment on the subject.

FalconPawwwwnch23 votes

It's not about the community sentiment

It's about the fact that she has more games played this month in professional play than every other ADC except Jinx and that her stats are absurd

Also, it's the community's place to assume that there are no plans for Vayne when she has no nerfs in the following patch, PBE, or any Rioter has come out and said something about her being overtuned. ESPECIALLY when we have a Rioter commenting on boards as frequently as you have been lately.

Thank you, however, for letting me know that she is being considered. That is all I ask.

Nahara11 votes

{quoted} Also, it's the community's place to assume that there are no plans for Vayne when she has no nerfs in the following patch, PBE, or any Rioter has come out and said something about her being overtuned.

Just because you can't see them doesn't mean they're not in internal discussion or testing. Riot not saying something about it doesn't mean nothing is being done about it, just that they don't have anything worthwhile to say about it at the moment.

ChimeiTekinaNasu5 votes

I knew she would be very strong soon long ago. Remember that slight attack speed buff she got near end of last season?? Then remember the 5% crit they removed from IE and put it on PD?? Well Vayne doesn't use IE really, or at least not early game for anyone who builds it on her. So she goes from having 30% to 35% crit. Remember all the recent BotRK buffs?? Her very core items got buffed this season. BotRK/PD. Then the "tank meta" happened and she is the Anti-Tank. Making her one of the best adc's in the tank meta to take them down on the enemy team. More HP they got, more damage to them. So yeah. I knew'd she be dominate like this with how the game was changing. All those little buffs and changes over time affected to how strong she is now.

Sire Hippington3 votes

don't forget her ult getting buffed by 5-15ad...

KONO RUBICK DA2 votes

[deleted]

RiotRiotRepertoir30 votes

That might be the wrong link? When I clicked on it, it was 5 months old, and Meddler hadn't posted in it.

KONO RUBICK DA16 votes

{quoted}

That might be the wrong link? When I clicked on it, it was 5 months old, and Meddler hadn't posted in it.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/irLpgEUx-health-true-damage?comment=000500020000000000000000

sry

bunny11024 votes

{quoted}

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/irLpgEUx-health-true-damage?comment=000500020000000000000000

sry

That link looks pretty clear that it was stated by meddlers she's in a good spot right now.

Dr Poro9 votes

He did, but I remember someone from Riot saying that Jinx was healthy even though her winrate was absurd. Yet, 2 weeks later, small Jinx nerfs appeared on the PBE. One Rioter can't voice the thought of the whole company (unless there is a unanimous agreement, which there rarely is). On top of that, the opinion of people can change over time. A third reason is that even without any changes to the game, things can change. People discover stuff about the game all the time. As a certain champion gets digged into by more people, and a new and improved playstyle gets discovered, the champion can suddenly become way stronger than before without any changes.

RiotRiotRepertoir17 votes

Or at least she was about a month ago, but a lot can change in a month. I suppose I should just ask him in person!

Phoenix Kotori 2 votes

You haven't tested a single nerf on PBE or nor talked about Vayne being a problem til now to the playerbase that shows you aren't considering it right now, imo.

redniwediS5 votes

Riot not publicly talking about Vayne has no correlation to Riot considering balance changes for her.

Besides, the PBE is mainly for bug testing, not balance testing.

BoxOfDOG2 votes

{quoted}

Where did we say this? Just talking around the office, that's really not the impression I get. If you had said, "The fact that Vayne isn't getting nerfed in 5.16 is sad really," then that's more reasonable. I can assure that in the last few days I've had several conversations about Vayne that weren't just on the boards.

Is she getting changes in 5.16? No. However, that doesn't necessarily mean we aren't aware of the community sentiment on the subject.

Good guy Repertoir saves the day.. AGAIN.

Divewing6 votes

Forgive me if I'm out of line, but since when has community sentiment mattered on champions other than Lee sin?

Kingopants23 votes

The current strategy Riot employes:

Ipols4 votes

I'm cryng item 3070

Count Buffon8 votes

Mordekaiser Curve dips below the x-axis as it continues to the right.

Silven20 votes

The one thing that bugs me about Vayne is that I can be a 7/0/5 Miss Fortune and I still couldn't 1v1 a 0/2/2 Vayne just cause she has Blade of the Ruined King.

I know this might be a tactical issue rather than balance (Don't 1v1 Vayne, 2v1 for safety), but I thought the whole point of being very fed was to be damn strong, and especially stronger than the one who's largely behind.

redniwediS14 votes

I was with you until the very end, when you said this:

Something has to be done about her

Is a 52% win rate enough to justify nerfs? To me that seems like something a meta shift would easily be able to fix. If Riot also thinks she is balanced enough that the meta decides her strength what new arguments might convince them otherwise?

FalconPawwwwnch23 votes

It's not just a 52% win rate lol

It's a 52% win rate with a 35-40% pick rate and a 12% ban rate in high elo solo q while also being picked constantly in competitive games

Her entire match history on esports wiki consists of games from this august, that's 50 games from this august.

redniwediS13 votes

The pick rate and ban rate are more heavily tied to what I said about the meta than the win rate. There are champions who do well against Vayne, and they are not popular right now. And no I'm not just talking about other ADCs.

Again, if Riot thinks a Vayne is balanced enough to have her strength governed by the meta what new arguments might convince them otherwise?

VDc0zCqe0w3 votes

{quoted}

The pick rate and ban rate are more heavily tied to what I said about the meta than the win rate. There are champions who do well against Vayne, and they are not popular right now.

nah, Vayne counters anyone that is not Viktor or Veigar or Annie (aka big point-and-click "Fuck you's"), she basically buys a QSS and game's over vs anything else

Anidan12 votes

You know who's hilarious against Vayne? Nunu support. That shit used to be cancerous for her to deal with. Movement and attack speed slow for her, and a movement and attack speed buff for her enemy. It was an awesome "fuck you" to Vayne. Too bad people stopped playing him bot for some reason. Nunu with a Frozen Heart slowed her attack speed pretty substantially. The meta and/or balance just don't favor him right now, though.

No but seriously, the main thing that has Vayne over the edge right now is the meta. Her base damage on silver bolts helps against squishies, but the more I think about her Silver Bolts the less of a problem I think it is. Silver Bolts isn't that bad, it's her slipperiness in combat that makes her seem more problematic. Right now, as they have been for quite a while, hard to catch carries are pretty much 'IN', other than the spree of Jinx we had for a while.

VDc0zCqe0w4 votes

{quoted}

You know who's hilarious against Vayne? Nunu support. That shit used to be cancerous for her to deal with. Movement and attack speed slow for her, and a movement and attack speed buff for her enemy. It was an awesome "fuck you" to Vayne. Too bad people stopped playing him bot for some reason. Nunu with a Frozen Heart slowed her attack speed pretty substantially. The meta and/or balance just don't favor him right now, though.

because he sucks as support? also Vayne just buys a QSS and removes the slow for long enough to kill you

Phoenix Kotori 5 votes

There are champions who do well against Vayne, and they are not popular right now. And no I'm not just talking about other ADCs.

FALSE.

In current state here are the match-ups vayne as a negative win rate on in plat+... The 3 ADCs with slightly higher win rates than her Ashe Draven JinxVarus; Ashe has vayne at 47.79% win rate her lowest matched up.

While Draven/Jinx & Varus has a 49% win rate on her.

She has a positive or neutral win rate against every other marksman so please tell me what Niche marksmans beat her.

redniwediS5 votes

Did you miss the part where I was not just talking about ADCs? All you mentioned was ADCs.

Phoenix Kotori 5 votes

So it's ok that's Vayne is next to uncounterable in lane to you?

redniwediS4 votes

I don't have problems countering her personally, so I can't really answer that question.

Trash ADC Btw3 votes

Considering how much top-lane you play, I see no reason why you would have a problem countering her in lane. You're not IN lane with her. Checking your ranked history, you haven't played a Vayne in bot-lane in a LONG time, well over 50 games, and you favor support in bot-lane, I see. Don't purport to know more about a matchup than you do, expecting no one to check your credentials.

redniwediS7 votes

You are correct, and as a support I don't have too much problem with her either.

Vayne hasn't been significantly changed in a very long time, so I don't really need to only work off of recent experience. It's not like I forget how to play against her if I don't lane against her for a month or two.

TTUPhoenix1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Girls Love,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4RVeheMb,comment-id=0000000000000002,timestamp=2015-08-17T01:09:21.133+0000)

FALSE.

In current state here are the match-ups vayne as a negative win rate on in plat+... The 3 ADCs with slightly higher win rates than her Ashe Draven JinxVarus; Ashe has vayne at 47.79% win rate her lowest matched up.

While Draven/Jinx & Varus has a 49% win rate on her.

She has a positive or neutral win rate against every other marksman so please tell me what Niche marksmans beat her.

Quinn does pretty well against her. So long as she isn't drastically behind Vayne, she can duel her relatively well at all points of the game, so long as you hit the blind.

Phoenix Kotori 3 votes

Historically yes Quinn is suppose to be a good pick vs Vayne.

In reality of current balance state not so much. Vayne has a 51.1% win rate in the match-up.

Divewing13 votes

Well Valor is a terrible bird, he can't even keep the bugs off Quinn

Not Katarina5 votes

http://rs1108.pbsrc.com/albums/h404/glfootballmlb21/Gifs/james-van-der-beek-clapping-gif-dawson-b7279382-sz624x350-animate1_zpsdf9ee7d7.gif~c200 obligatory

KONO RUBICK DA4 votes

{quoted}

I was with you until the very end, when you said this:

Is a 52% win rate enough to justify nerfs? To me that seems like something a meta shift would easily be able to fix. If Riot also thinks she is balanced enough that the meta decides her strength what new arguments might convince them otherwise?

Jinx had 52% win rate and 35% pick rate, her Q was still nerfed

"if you pick vayne you give up on several strengths" meddler 2015 welp

NemeBro10 votes

{quoted} Something has to be done about her, she shouldn't be able to beat melee champions 1v1 and in teamfights while also not losing to ranged champions.

This is really the crux of the issue IMHO.

Vayne should not be allowed to be one of the best duelists in the entire game while also being an ADC. Virtually without exception the best duelists in the game tend to be melee and poor team fighters. When people say Vayne is "bad at team fighting and sieging", what they really mean is "compared to some other ADCs". She's much better at it than, say, Tryndamere is.

Slamurai Jack7 votes

When a champion that is repeatedly touted as having a massive skill cap and being hard to play has maintained this enormous pick rate and an above average win rate for so long, it should be looked into. With a 35% pick rate, Vayne is clearly considered to be safe to pick without consideration for counters or team comps. If champions like Cassiopeia Yasuo Nidalee Syndra Zed had stats like these, they would have been nerfed very quickly to put them into line. Not coincidentally, all 5 of them have already.

Honestly, even without considering her win rate, I'm just tired of seeing Vayne in nearly every game. There's pretty much always going to be 1 adc that's picked far more than the rest, but that adc should never be someone as supposedly situational as Vayne; and if she is going to be this popular, she definitely shouldn't be having above average success. I remember the days when it was Caitlyn every game and then Lucian every game and then Tristana every game and then Jinx every game. The only one of those that was anywhere near as annoying as Vayne every game was Tristana every game and she was annoying for the exact same reasons: her weaknesses weren't nearly relevant enough and her strengths were extremely frustrating to play against.

pripustas6 votes

How about assassins? They can fight ONLY carries. How the hell can VAYNE kill an ASSASSIN 1x1???? It's what they're made for. To KILL CARRIES.

Valor Bot2 votes

To be fair, Vayne's secondary role is Assassin, so it makes sense for her to be able to outduel them I think. She's like Quinn in that she thrives in 1v1 scenarios.

Xonra6 votes

The main problem with Vayne isn't Vayne, and that is the problem with her, and part that causes frustration.

In most cases you can duel against adc vs adc to an extent, depending on the point in the game etc, and other champs vs an adc, and so on and so forth. The problem with Vayne is you do have to look at her a bit differently, and I hear the "then Vayne IS the problem" before you type it.

The problem really isn't Vayne, it is the person playing against Vayne refusing to change their play style or strategy. It isn't a new thing, I mean look at Darius when he was new. He rocked people because they wanted to go against him like other top laners and Darius said no. It took a while, but people figured it out and stopped complaining constantly.

Vayne is built for dueling and being a threat late, but she isn't useless before then. People treat her like any other adc in lane when she isn't obviously, but that doesn't mean she is overpowered. Just don't run in her face. Have a more CC heavy support (I play Naut and get in her face if she tries to dive on my adc).

If you are refusing to play against Vayne differently in order to beat her, that isn't the champs fault, that is input error. Is she strong, well duh, is she "broken", no. You just have to understand her playstyle is different than a lot of other adcs and play around that.

NA Darklarik4 votes

The most absurd thing Vayne has is her W's Flat true damage. Its already % HP its meant to be a tankbuster, so WHY THE HELL does it have FLAT VALUES AS WELL? That just screws over squishes as well!

Just completely remove her damn W's Flat true damage value. She already has enough mobility (which i think is another area that could use a hit) as it is, she dosent need to be a burst assassin as well.

Deep Terror Nami3 votes

Where did Riot make a statement that they have no intentions or plans for Vayne? Please link your source, thx.

FalconPawwwwnch3 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/KfUxrYmE-vayne-needs-a-nerf

No nerfs in 5.16, no Rioter commenting that Vayne is overtuned, along with the above post

YossarianSensei3 votes

Yeah just like Zed was soooo OP last time the forums were begging for his nerfs

Iamawalrus3 votes

Some of your arguments don't take all the facts into consideration:

"Vayne has weak early game" Those stats don't really relate to early game strength, check various other champions for comparision. The graph for Vayne is the classic "I'm a hard carry" graph, and it looks like Twitch's (except twitch is bad atm so it is the same style of graph with lower numbers).

"Hard to play" What you need to be good at is typical ADC stuff so not surprising most ADCs do ok on her. Her winrate comes from most Vayne players playing more than 100 games on her because they like Vayne (her winrate rises solidly past 100 games).

"Lucian/Sivir" Lucian/Sivir have longer effective range. Vayne has better duelling. Sivir has better game managing through her high ms. Lucian has better burst (esp when he was balanced) and more long range damage through ult. It's not like Vayne does everything else better aside from the range.. They just have completely separate strengths.

It seems like Vayne needs a slight nerf to be closer to even, along with a couple other ADCs, though.

JedenVojak3 votes

The problem is not that Vayne is too strong, it's that other champions are too weak.

RottedApples1 votes

point of clarity, half of vayne wins are won in 25 minutes? half of vayne games are won in 25 minutes? or half of 25 minute games containing a vayne are a win for her?

FalconPawwwwnch1 votes

Out of all the Vayne games that last 0-25 minutes, she wins over half of them

zJCavRH7cd5 votes

{quoted}

Out of all the Vayne games that last 0-25 minutes, she wins over half of them

Did you even do your research?

Almost all the adc's have over a 50% win rate between 0-25 minutes.

The role is called Attack Damage Carry for a reason. Because they are champions that build full damage to kill the enemy team. And if they get ahead. REGARDLESS OF WHAT ADC IT IS. Between 0-25 minutes. They have a higher chance to win the game.

Here let me put this easier for you.

Format ADC - Time of game - Winrate Percentage

Jinx (0-25) Winrate : 53.59 Ashe (0-25) Winrate : 53.7 Sivir (0-25) Winrate : 54.13 Draven (0-25) Winrate : 53 Varus (0-25) Winrate : 52.57 Kalista (0-25) Winrate : 53.85 Caitlyn (0-25) Winrate : 50.92 Corki (0-25) Winrate : 54.11 Graves (0-25) Winrate : 52.75

Then theres vayne (0-25) Winrate : 50.68%

Whoa thats crazy, its almost like, as if. Any adc that gets ahead between 0 minutes and 25 minutes of the game has a above 50% winrate. No way.

All stats were taken from Champion.gg The same site you used for you links and stats.

Basically using this stat is pretty much invalid for your argument.

So if you have any other stats you would like to share with me go ahead.

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