So there is true damage and true invisibility now where’s true defense?

Reworks Are OP·Jul 30, 2018·92 votes·18,265 views

Seems fair....

Kappa :)

But seriously I want to play tanks again :(

132 Comments

DerMangoJoghurtJul 30, 201849 votes

Kayle Taric There is your true defense.

Edit: Completely forgot Kindred Edit #2: Tryndamere deserves some love too

Reworks Are OPJul 30, 201812 votes

Hmm so two true defense champs when any champ that builds ad can go conquer and get true dmg

Seems we need more true defense champs!

ZackTheWaffleManJul 30, 20187 votes

don't forget that Morde can go conqueror as well, his Q has massive AD scaling

NyarlathοtepJul 30, 2018

It deals, however, magic damage. Conq works only on physical dmg.

Backup4nowJul 30, 20185 votes

It works on damage to champions.

NyarlathοtepJul 30, 2018

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Conqueror

Z3SleeperJul 30, 20182 votes

Read it.

NyarlathοtepJul 31, 20181 votes

Oke i just saw the exact description and i cant help and ask the following, or rather the followings. 1) why the fk conq isnt as popular on morde (it sounds awesome in theory). However by looking stats, apparently conq on morde is not a good option (and i cant understand why) (source: lolalytics/champgg) .

Riot said explicitly that conq doesnt have adaptive dmg in order to avoid tanks from using it. I mean because of how tanks function in fights, they said that they didnt want tanks to run it. Yet since the true dmg works off general damage, tanks can still use it. I guess its suboptimal to run conq on a tank. But still it is weird that i havent played all these time with someone that tries it out.

My Waifu VanillaJul 31, 20184 votes

Because Morde straight up does more damage with Aery on targets that matter. Yes, Conq lets you tank smash with your ulti, but you shouldn't be ulting tanks and getting like 3 Aery procs on your ultimate makes it do A LOT more damage to squishies.

Z3SleeperJul 31, 20182 votes

Because solo lane Aery does far more for him (how often are you gonna apply and keep up conqueror in lane?). And Aery especially does more damage on his ultimate with no 4 second + AA requirement.

In duo lanes, they typically take Guardian cuz it helps him sustain more and gives him and his duo an extra engage option. And ofcourse once again, he won't be applying conqueror in bot lane any time soon.

NyarlathοtepJul 31, 2018

Actually keeping up conq with morde doesnt seem difficult. But aery does a better job at dmg squishies and poking.

Z3SleeperJul 31, 20182 votes

No yeah keeping it up is easy, applying it in the first place is harder.

NyarlathοtepJul 31, 2018

Yeah applying might be a bit challenging (depending on the match up) but he is melee. As morde you will have to go cs with your aa.

Z3SleeperJul 31, 20182 votes

You gotta actually AA the enemy champion to proc it though.

Also you got downvoted fast af lmao who is even looking at this?

OleandervineJul 30, 201830 votes

{quoted}

There is your true defense.

That's invincibility. True defense would be armor/mr stats that aren't affected by shreds or modifications like Cleaver.

Need Gold 4 TentJul 30, 201812 votes

AFAIK that's just % damage reduction. Currently available on item 3046 item 3715 as items, and some champs which I cbf to look through.

PB4UAMEJul 31, 201815 votes

But true damage completely bypasses that. My understanding of "True Defense" is that nothing could bypass it, and it would also reduce true damage, just as regular resists affect regular damage.

True damage is on the same level as true damage. If true damage is still higher and ignores true defense entirely, there's nothing "true" about the defense, nor any point in even having it to begin with.

Need Gold 4 TentJul 31, 20188 votes

Then you get the sharpest spear/strongest shield paradox. True damage that doesn't bypass true defense wouldn't be true damage either.

PB4UAMEJul 31, 20182 votes

If they are on the same level as each other, but by pass all other resistances, they are both still true damage and true defense. They are above all that which is not True. One should not enjoy a hierarchical position, as that invalidates the very purpose and meaning of the other. True defense matching True damage doesn't make true damage not by pass: flat damage reduction, percentage damage reduction, armor, magic resist, % less damage taken, or every single defensive steroid and ability in the entire game except for Kayle's ult.

By your logic, the fact that Kayle's and Taric ult counters True damage (as in she literally doesn't take damage. To Trynd, Kindred, etc, they are still dealt damage, and you can still heal or proc other effects from the damage dealt even though they won't take any) alredy make true damage not true damage, which is asinine and ludicrous imo.

Besides, True Damage isn't even the highest form or type of damage to begin with, that's Pure Damage, ala the fountain laser. . . WHICH DOES BYPASS ALL DEFENSIVE ABILITY INCLUDING TRYND, KALYE, TARIC AND KINDRED'S ULTS

Don't confuse True damage for Pure, or assume for no reason at all, that a way to mitigate true damage makes it less of true damage. If that was the case, it would already bypass more than it already does and be even more bullshit and uncounterable. That's not good in any way, shape, nor form, and there is a very good and very real reason why the fountain towers were given an additional, superior to true damage damage type, so that that argument would already be dead and gone years and years ago.

Need Gold 4 TentJul 31, 20184 votes

seems like you don't even understand the paradox. if true damage was on the same level as true defense, what happens when you turn them on each other? if true damage goes through, then true defense is already proven to be inferior to true damage. and vice versa. they will never possibly be on the same level. and if one were to be somewhat inferior, it usually tends to be defense (who riot thinks is supposed to get outscaled by offense), so we have damage reduction - resists every type of pen except true damage.

PB4UAMEJul 31, 20182 votes

Fam, you're utterly abstracting true damage, and taking it to have or require some mystical levels of supposed non-interaction with other mechanics, and I don't even know where you're pulling this shit from.

True damage already has limits, it used to also be effected by both damage mitigation as well as % damage amps, such as old Swain's E, Vlad's ult, and at one point in time, an iteration of DFG, and Ahri's E as well.

They slowly removed most of those cases, although as a former Vlad main, his ult still increased ignites damage way after they claimed otherwise, and it was honestly pretty broken. With the ability to use sums in pool and that, I thought he was the most broken a champ could be with summoner spells, then this shit happened, Zoe but I digress.

True damage is still mitigated by Kayle and Taric's ult. It is not defined like you think it is, it does not mean what you think it means. It does and historically always has interacted with both offensive and defensive mechanics for all of League's history. The idea of a True Defense would be a stat that matches exactly the paradigm of regular damage to regular defense. It's literally just moved up a level and bypasses the levels before it. It would be like physical damage to armor; magical damage to magic resist, and would fit perfectly inside the design and balance paradigm already constructed. In fact, I have mentioned in the past the utter lack of a defensive option in this space, advocating for AoE aura type versions of this for tank ultimates or defensive abilities, rather than overloading them with more CC and damage.

Do you think damage isn't really damage, and is totally countered by resists because they lower but can never reduce to zero that incoming damage? How, I dare ask? Especially with the multiplicative scaling that damage enjoys compared to the linear returns to scale of defense. Although they apply at the same level, damage scales harder, and ultimately wins out. EDIT: and already damage has two levels beyond anything defensive statistics have-- with the introduction of True Defense, that cuts it to only one, which imho is fundamentally a more fair, and by extension a better outcome than what we have now.

Again its worth noting, that even here, there is still Pure Damage to bypass and negate True Defense, so even it would already have a counter without needing to redesign or implement anything further alongside it.

What you're talking about and think about IS NOT TRUE DAMAGE BUT PURE DAMAGE WHICH ONLY EXISTS FOR THE FOUNTAIN TURRETS True Damage and True Defense can coexist meaningfully at the same level. True Defense and Pure Damage cannot for the reasons you claim.

I hope this helps clear up your apparent confusion.

ShablagooJul 31, 20182 votes

Invulnerability, if you are taking no dmg what do those matter?

OleandervineJul 31, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Invulnerability, if you are taking no dmg what do those matter?

No, because that's not how true damage works. True damage is unmodifiable, so therefore, true defense would have to be unmodifiable.

ShablagooJul 31, 20183 votes

But that is what those ults do they make you unmodifiable for a short amount of time. The defense doesnt have to specifically correlate with true dmg, and proof of that is kayle and tarics ults, they just make you immune to any type of dmg, which would make it true defense.

Colton147Jul 30, 20184 votes

{quoted}

There is your true defense.

Edit: Completely forgot

Tryndamere item 3070

DerMangoJoghurtJul 30, 20182 votes

How could I forget him? Gonna make a second edit.

Critmaster GarenJul 30, 201815 votes

we need to give Garen a "true silence"

getting hit by it locks you out of a random ability or summoner spell for the rest of the game.

kek.

meowwow7Jul 30, 201810 votes

nah true silence disables passives as well

Critmaster GarenJul 30, 201814 votes

{quoted}

nah true silence disables passives as well

champion, item passives and runes.

that would actually be cool. imagine your opponent suddenly lost shit like bork passive, infinity edge passives, rageblade would stop working despite 6 stacks, mallet cant slow you anymore, hexdrinker doesnt activate to absorb garen ult, conqueror gets cancelled etc.

that is evil. i like it.

Kai GuyJul 30, 20185 votes

Garen Alistar Last I checked don't both have flat damage % reduction?

ZackTheWaffleManJul 30, 20182 votes

True damage bypasses both. Alistar R specifically states that it reduces physical and magic damage by 50%.

VectrosJul 30, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4QRuX8AZ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-07-30T19:19:24.834+0000)

Last I checked don't both have flat damage % reduction?

Yes, but true damage still goes completely through both. I believe this thread is asking for an ability that will always reduce damage by X amount-even true damage.

At least, I think...

Kai GuyJul 30, 20182 votes

So then whas being done is folks are asking for selective removal of true damage?

My first thoughts where Kayle or Old Poppy R. Some one had posted already and the The response I saw was

"That's invincibility. True defense would be armor/mr stats that aren't affected by shreds or modifications like Cleaver."

I feel invincibility is true defence, and % reductions a close second. If its a mechanic that only affects true damage then its not really a great mechanic, if its a mechanic that affects all forms of damage then Invulnerability from Kayle R works.

Z3SleeperJul 31, 20181 votes

Invincibility is invincibility. True defense would most likely be something more like "Reduces damage by x amount, including true damage"

SpecterVonBarenJul 31, 20182 votes

This is pedantic nonsense and you know it.

Z3SleeperJul 31, 20182 votes

No it's not cuz I don't know what that word means.

SpecterVonBarenJul 31, 20182 votes

Damnit man!

Pedantic

adjective

ostentatious in one's learning.
**overly concerned with minute details **or formalisms, especially in teaching.

And yes I AM well aware that you can use 1.'s interpretation against me!

L RayquazaJul 31, 20185 votes

Kayle Taric ults, they prevent you from death

chipndip1Jul 30, 20184 votes

True defense: Kayle Taric Tryndamere Kindred

AjayhatakeJul 30, 20184 votes

There’s also true ice 😂🤣 Lissandra

SwiftKitten88Jul 30, 20184 votes

technically its NOT "true invisibility"

the player can still see them under true sight...(such as under tower or in Morgana ulti) they just cant bet targeted by right click abilities such as autos or right click skills.

if they ACTUALLY couldn't see you under tower it would be broken as fuck,, they can see you, they just cant right click

DuskDaUmbreonJul 31, 20181 votes

It's basically "Hey you're invisible except instead of turrets outright revealing you they just have an item 3364 around you".

Too few people understand that.

SwiftKitten88Jul 31, 20182 votes

{quoted}

It's basically "Hey you're invisible except instead of turrets outright revealing you they just have an around you".

Too few people understand that.

yeah i was really worried about it but when i did some testing on pbe with a freind

riot actually did it correctly, which given thier track record i was completely astounded to see.

true sight will completely reveal them, the only caveat is u cant use point and click autos or skills

but it has been coded very well i was truly impressed, by how well this was coded.. and belive me i give riot a lot of shit.. but this was done well.

it wont drop things like Caitlyn ulti

LeeSin can still go toward her on the recast of q

Nidalee can even use her empowered pounce to close in (although since takedown is an empowered auto attack it cant hit her)

i haven't tested if her taking damage get her be auto attacked, i know if she herself attacks u can click her.. but i am unsure of hitting her with a skillshot or AOE will give you a small window to auto her.

i dont expect it too.. ( and i doubt this is currently the case) but i think a .5 second window where she can be autoed/clicked after getting damage (if you have true sight on her still) wouldnt be bad.

although the more i think about it the more i think it would ruin the stealth... because .5 seconds is plenty of time to get autoed again [zombie-nunu-bummed] .

but as long as you need true sight to hit her with an ability it should be fine, true sight usually dones't last very long.

anyways im just trying to find a workaround so i can actually hIt her with takedown after pouncing in.. [sg-soraka]

The Highest NoonJul 31, 20181 votes

What is "True Invisibility?"

OleandervineJul 31, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Highest Noon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4QRuX8AZ,comment-id=0026,timestamp=2018-07-31T16:13:30.488+0000)

What is "True Invisibility?"

"Obscured" on Akali's new Shroud. It blocks vision from turrets to her while she's in it.

The Highest NoonJul 31, 20182 votes

{quoted}

"Obscured" on Akali's new Shroud. It blocks vision from turrets to her while she's in it.

I don't see how that's "True" though lol since you can reveal her with AOEs and DOTs even if you're not able to target her.

Also, there's already "True Defense." It's called "Damage Reduction." Such as Garen's W, it reduces damage from all sources, even True Damage.

The EcdysiastJul 31, 20181 votes

It makes her immune to true sight, which is supposed to make even cloaked enemies visible. Hence calling it true invisibility, because towers cannot target her and she can use it to remove turret aggro.
Just blatantly false. Damage reduction does not reduce true damage. True damage as defined in the game's code cannot be reduced by any source.

However, there is True defense. Guardian Angel, Tryndamere, Kayle, Anivia, Zilean, Zac, and Aatrox. Any revive or invulnerability is immune to true damage.

But there's also the "actually true, not a lie at all, completely honest damage that literally nothing can prevent you from dying to" Pure Damage, the only source of which is the Obelisk. It will ignore any invulnerability or revive. Though right when the jungle items were changed, Challenging Smite was bugged and coded as Pure damage, so we had Warwicks killing Tryndameres for a day.

The Highest NoonJul 31, 20182 votes

The fact that she can be revealed in itself makes it not "True Invisibility" at all. That second one, I didn't know about because usually when I'm in range of dying from Darius's ult as Garen, I just press W and take less damage. Maybe that's just a mistake on my part, then.