Thornmail with Grievous Wounds is at odds with itself.

Quepha··3 votes·1,349 views

TL;DR: Put GW on Randuin's Omen, delete Thornmail.

Assume the adc's auto attacks deal 100 damage

Thornmail would then reflect 15 damage per auto attack

0% lifesteal: -15 hp per auto attack vs. 0 hp against non-Thornmail targets, devastating to a careless adc who doesn't realize the tank has bought Thornmail. 20% lifesteal: +5 hp per auto attack vs. +20 hp. Reducing lifesteal healing by 75% is a big penalty for the adc, but they aren't killing themselves anymore and even still see some positive regen. 40% lifesteal: +25 hp per auto attack vs. +40 hp. Not even a 50% reduction in lifesteal healing means the adc stops really feeling the passive of Thornmail, the enemy tank is still an HP battery.

Thornmail's damage return passive makes lifesteal a higher priority on adcs, not a lower one, so they can work to make the damage return into an insignificant portion of the damage calculation. Grievous Wounds as a mechanic is obviously meant to directly attack the healing from lifesteal to make this item into a counter for large amounts of lifesteal.

Tank players may be thinking "Well that's great, now I can build this item and it's just always good against adcs!" But power in this game that is "always good" generally doesn't stay that way for long. If it really would be strong enough to be "always" good then it's a must-build every game that screws over an entire class of champions therefore it's OP and would need a nerf. Since it's an item that is generically useful every game, if it's nerfed to not be a must-build item, then it's now a never-build item since there would always be a specialized item that fits the scenario better.

I propose a different tank item for GW: If the goal of this change is to create an item that allows a tank to keep themselves from being an hp battery to a fed, lifestealing adc, then I think a better choice would be to put GW on an item that builds out of Warden's mail and also possesses the 'Cold Steel' passive AKA 'enemies that auto attack me get an attack speed slow'. This would reduce their lifesteal directly and also hamper their damage output to further reduce how much they regen, creating an item solidly in the well-needed niche of "stop the fed Caitlyn from staying full health when all she did was right-click me and then afk until the fight was over"

This still leaves open the question of, "How do we make Thornmail relevant?" To which I don't have an answer. I am personally of the opinion that the damage reflect passive and the fantasy it creates is toxic and irredeemable. If Thornmail were to be made relevant I think its passive would have to be re-imagined as something completely different. If a tank wanted to punish someone for attacking them, then maybe something like "Enemies that auto attack you are marked for 3 seconds. Activate this item to fire a burst of thorns at all marked targets, dealing 15% bonus hp magic damage and slowing the target's movement speed by 50% for 3 seconds, 80 second cooldown" which would make it an effective anti-kiting/skirmishing tool since an adc would be very frightened of trying to poke you with an auto attack unless their full team is around to cover for them if they eat a slow.

15 Comments

Eedat3 votes

0% lifesteal: -15 hp per auto attack vs. 0 hp against non-Thornmail targets, devastating to a careless adc who doesn't realize the tank has bought Thornmail. 20% lifesteal: +5 hp per auto attack vs. +20 hp. Reducing lifesteal healing by 75% is a big penalty for the adc, but they aren't killing themselves anymore and even still see some positive regen. 40% lifesteal: +25 hp per auto attack vs. +40 hp. Not even a 50% reduction in lifesteal healing means the adc stops really feeling the passive of Thornmail, the enemy tank is still an HP battery.

This math is just straight up wrong lol. Its not even close. For example:

20% life steal against a target with thornmail:

100 * 20% = +20 HP.

+20 HP - GW (40%) = +12 HP

+12 HP - 15 reflected damage = -3

Congrats. You just nullified an entire item 3072 worth of lifesteal with the new thornmail.

Quepha1 votes

You misinterpret the settings for my math while ignoring the larger points which are still supported by your math.

Dreampod1 votes

The math is actually even worse for the lifesteal since you forgot to take into account armor reducing the damage that lifesteal is calculated on.

100 x -0.15 = -15 HP : Reflect damage is calculated off base

100 x 0.512 x 0.20 x 0.60 = +6.1 HP : Lifesteal is calculate off post mitigation damage (100/(130+(100 x 0.65)) for a 30 armor champion with just thornmails 100 extra)

+6.1 HP - 15 HP = -8.9 HP

Doubling lifesteal to 40% still leaves them taking -2.8 damage per 100 AD per auto. Which basically puts it in exactly the position the item is intended to be. They aren't going to kill themselves attacking you (in any non-contrived situation) but aren't able to do so indefinitely or use you to heal up and it allows the damage the tank is actually doing, even if low, to stick.

EDIT: Recalculated the damage output with the assumption of 35% bonus armor penetration from last whisper since that is an expected item which increases the healing per 100 damage per auto per 20% lifesteal by +0.9 HP

UnboundHades2 votes

when you forget that the damage has armor scaling

Quepha1 votes

That doesn't really change any points. Thornmail still reflects an amount of damage every auto attack and the best way to counter it is to build more lifesteal. Although the flat armor scaling damage from Thornmail also makes simply scaling the damage of individual hits as another way to reduce the impact of that passive.

Durzaka1 votes

Yes it does.

Because it makes the tipping point of lifesteal to negate Thornmail MUCH higher than you argue it is. Reaching a reasonable amount of life steal to negate or even go positive against Thornmail requires several items dedicated to it

Quepha1 votes

The tipping point isn't important, what matters is that lifesteal is basically the only stat that combats it so the adc is encouraged to build it more if they have to worry about a thornmail.

LongHair Fox2 votes

Note that thornmail damage is calculated before resists, so in its current form you would need much more than 15% lifesteal to avoid taking damage when aa'ing, since tanks have more armor than adc's have mr.

Quepha1 votes

Not really a relevant point, that still leaves "more lifesteal" as the best way to deal with Thornmail.

LongHair Fox1 votes

Not saying that more lifesteal would not be the way to counter it, but that you would need 2-3 dedicated lifesteal items to compensate for thornmail, making this iteration extremely gamebreaking.

Quepha1 votes

yeah, it would be gamebreaking without a niche, so riot would have to hit the "gamebreaking" part leaving it to be pointless again.

Dreampod1 votes

But "more lifesteal" is a tradeoff against "more damage". By forcing them into a situation where they buy an additional lifesteal item to counter your counter purchase they no longer are going to be able to kill you as fast which gives the thornmail user more chance to fight back but even more importantly means that they now have a suboptimal build against the rest of the team. Those other teammates with high damage outputs aren't vulnerable to being draintanked and now have a damage output advantage which is a big deal.

Buying more lifesteal to counter Grievous Wounds works but it is about as effective as buying more Attack Damage to counter Armor. While it does solve the problem, it is an extremely inefficient solution because you are sacrificing a large portion of that item's stats.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

But "more lifesteal" is a tradeoff against "more damage". By forcing them into a situation where they buy an additional lifesteal item to counter your counter purchase they no longer are going to be able to kill you as fast which gives the thornmail user more chance to fight back but even more importantly means that they now have a suboptimal build against the rest of the team. Those other teammates with high damage outputs aren't vulnerable to being draintanked and now have a damage output advantage which is a big deal.

I didn't say Thornmail doesn't hurt the adc, I said that the way it hurts the adc is a way that encourages building more lifesteal

Buying more lifesteal to counter Grievous Wounds works but it is about as effective as buying more Attack Damage to counter Armor. While it does solve the problem, it is an extremely inefficient solution because you are sacrificing a large portion of that item's stats.

That's my entire point. Thornmail's current passive encourages lifesteal and is extremely effective against low-lifesteal targets, Grievous Wounds discourages lifesteal and is extremely effective against high-lifesteal targets, that's all the targets (not really all the targets but all the targets in a class that has to be dealt with in all of the games). When an item is good against all of the targets then it gets built all of the time until Riot goes "hey that's stupid" and nerfs it until it's not good against all of the targets and then no one builds it. The item needs to be good against some of the targets and not good against some of the targets so that it gets built some of the time but not all of the time.

Dreampod1 votes

You are completely wrong about the passive encouraging lifesteal - it does the exact opposite. Yes you can negate the passive damage return but at a cost higher than the value of what you are negating. The whole problem with lifesteal vs high health/low damage targets is that once it exceeds their potential output they are literally incapable of fighting back - this item would make that possible but doesn't prevent the lifestealer from being able to fight since they can still straight kill the target. An item that gives agency back to a player who had it negated without diminishing anyone elses agency is a very good item the aligns with Riots core values. That it is effective against all lifestealers is the entire point of the item, it might be too effective and need to get adjusted, but otherwise it is the equivalent to complaining that Riot is going to have to nerf Magic Resist because it is good against all mages whether they have low AP or high AP. It will still remain a niche item since it only has significant value for characters who lack the ability to do much damage since they have the better option of just getting more damage to overwhelm the lifesteal and kill them, and the rest of their team, faster.

q3fogWe6LF1 votes

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