Veigar lacks counterplay and is incredibly frustrating to play against.

Nausicäa ·Oct 2, 2015·11 votes·2,060 views

What exactly made Riot think that one shotting someone with a point and click ability is fair?

69 Comments

BluePolarizerOct 2, 201517 votes

So, when DFG was around, E was instant and Q was point and click, Veigar had a 48% win rate and was considered trash tier troll pick because he essentially only had Q and ult against the common picks of the time. LeBlanc, Zed, etc. would be able to delete him every time he stepped into lane. He'll end up with a blasting wand a boots at 20 minutes in.

Now that Veigar is literally weaker in every single way, he is considered OP. lmao.

SaiannaOct 2, 20151 votes

There's nothing to add, you've covered it all...

HopFroggerOct 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

So, when DFG was around, E was instant and Q was point and click, Veigar had a 48% win rate and was considered trash tier troll pick because he essentially only had Q and ult against the common picks of the time. LeBlanc, Zed, etc. would be able to delete him every time he stepped into lane. He'll end up with a blasting wand a boots at 20 minutes in.

Now that Veigar is literally weaker in every single way, he is considered OP. lmao.

Sheople.

DeynaTaggerungOct 2, 201514 votes

Haha as usual, champ gets played in LCS and wins and the QQ threads begin

Big LincolnOct 2, 201510 votes

i love how as soon as a champ gets played in the pro scene or becomes popular in general

all measure of counterplay previously thought of as common knowledge against them magically vanishes

GigglingAngelOct 2, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Solomon Money,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4EItG2MP,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2015-10-02T02:59:58.212+0000)

i love how as soon as a champ gets played in the pro scene or becomes popular in general

all measure of counterplay previously thought of as common knowledge against them magically vanishes

Seriously, do people not think that item 3157 and item 3102 exist anymore? Like ... lulz. It's such a simple thing to use Hourglass when he throws out his ult. Just gotta make sure you aren't caught within the cage's wall, and that's simple.

MiraweaveOct 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Seriously, do people not think that and exist anymore? Like ... lulz. It's such a simple thing to use Hourglass when he throws out his ult. Just gotta make sure you aren't caught within the cage's wall, and that's simple.

Banshee isn't a reliable counter assuming Veigar actually has a team. Hourglass deals with his ult but has a higher cooldown, and if you pop hourglass he'll just drop his cage on top of you and you'll be stunned and dead immediately upon exiting it.

GigglingAngelOct 2, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=ME AM SMART,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4EItG2MP,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2015-10-02T03:08:02.855+0000)

Banshee isn't a reliable counter assuming Veigar actually has a team.

Yes, it is. While the passive can be proc'd by others, the MR and HP it also gives isn't something you should ignore when against Veigar.

Hourglass deals with his ult but has a higher cooldown, and if you pop hourglass he'll just drop his cage on top of you and you'll be stunned and dead immediately upon exiting it.

The ult's cooldown isn't shorter than Hourglass unless he has over 25% CDR and he's level 16 or higher.
Even if the ult's cooldown is as short as it can be with 40% CDR (which is 44 seconds), it won't matter, because the vast majority of fights won't last long enough for Veig to use his ult twice.
He can't kill you with 2 abilities that don't include his ult, especially when you have banshee's.

MiraweaveOct 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yes, it is. While the passive can be proc'd by others, the MR and HP it also gives isn't something you should ignore when against Veigar.

The ult's cooldown isn't shorter than Hourglass unless he has over 25% CDR and he's level 16 or higher.

Even if the ult's cooldown is as short as it can be with 40% CDR (which is 44 seconds), it won't matter, because the vast majority of fights won't last long enough for Veig to use his ult twice. > 3. He can't kill you with 2 abilities that don't include his ult, especially when you have banshee's.

Yes, he can. Unless you actually have the shield up, which you rarely will if his team cares about him at all, his W and Q will be more than enough to kill any squishy champion by the time you're actually able to buy Banshees. If you've gone banshee first, then great he's won anyway since you're going to be completely useless until you have damage items to back it up during which time he gets a free lane to farm.

GigglingAngelOct 2, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=ME AM SMART,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4EItG2MP,comment-id=000b0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-02T03:54:02.428+0000)

> 3. He can't kill you with 2 abilities that don't include his ult, especially when you have banshee's.

Yes, he can. Unless you actually have the shield up, which you rarely will if his team cares about him at all, his W and Q will be more than enough to kill any squishy champion by the time you're actually able to buy Banshees. If you've gone banshee first, then great he's won anyway since you're going to be completely useless until you have damage items to back it up during which time he gets a free lane to farm.

I've played against plenty of Veig's as squishy Heimer, and he's never killed me with his Q and W alone. Never.

HexaDecimelOct 2, 20151 votes

I am with you on this one, the only time I have seen a veigar take out even the enemy adc with just QW was when he had minimum 5 items and 800 ap.

The Griefer KingOct 2, 20154 votes

stop getting caught in his cage

WinBoatOct 2, 20153 votes

Kinda hard not to get caught in his cage since it's a pretty big cage. You have to constantly be moving, and even then, a good Veigar is going to get you in the end cause it's a matter of time on how fast you can last against him.

RatbertOct 2, 20152 votes

But where are the "just buy zhonyas or qss" group that always appears when a certain other champ is cried about? You can even get cleanse against him. The best veigar cannot land his w unless you let him and are not stunned and you can still trade with him in the cage.

WinBoatOct 2, 20151 votes

lol, can't argue that, but the best Viegar tho CAN LAND HIS W. You are right about everything else.

RatbertOct 2, 20151 votes

I fairly certain that even if veigar uses his w in the middle, there is just enough room to dodge it without getting stunned. But maybe not.

air tigerOct 3, 20151 votes

You are correct. You can dodge all of his abilities, save the ult, from inside the cage.

BudupopsOct 2, 20154 votes

sigh... went from up to op quick

MarthianOct 2, 20152 votes

He never was underpowered. Even after the rework (filled with plenty of nerfs), Veigar was still as playable as before (mage one-shotting and all), but could farm AP much easier (and now even easier thanks to AP on assist)*

The ult ratio loss didn't hit him too hard since thanks to getting more AP overall, his other abilities do more damage as well as his ult.

SaiannaOct 2, 20151 votes

He never was underpowered.

Yea, he was. You just don't remember first 2..3 months after his rework.

The ult ratio loss didn't hit him too hard since thanks to getting more AP overall, his other abilities do more damage as well as his ult.

Lots of "serious" Veigar mains used Q not to just stack AP, but to poke. When Q became skillshot poking was close to impossible. So maybe numbers were changed, it did hit how people played him.

Second thing. In first sentence you said, that "The ult ratio loss didn't hit him too hard", which means it did hit him anyways. Yet in second you go with "his other abilities do more damage as well as his ult."

Decide which is correct. -.-

MarthianOct 2, 20152 votes

I played him after rework and did close to the same as before.

Bad grammar on second part, his ratio was reduced, but since he got more AP, it wasn't as harsh a nerf.

MiraweaveOct 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I played him after rework and did close to the same as before.

Bad grammar on second part, his ratio was reduced, but since he got more AP, it wasn't as harsh a nerf.

Why does everyone conveniently forget that his Q has 950 range now so it's nearly impossible to deny him stacks?

SaiannaOct 2, 20151 votes

It actually is a nerf.

Before Veigar wasn't just about farming minions with Q.

He used Q to harass.

Now, just to break even Veigar has to resign from harassing/poking enemy laner.

You might think it isn't much, but it actually is :/

SaiannaOct 2, 20154 votes

This is getting tiresome..

Opens Lolking.com
Checks Gidor
Whole 2 games played as Veigar.
Both lost. Avg 3,5/8
Reads thread again "Veigar so frustrating to play against" ....
Facepalms

HopFroggerOct 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

This is getting tiresome..

Opens Lolking.com

Checks Gidor

Whole 2 games played as Veigar.

Both lost. Avg 3,5/8

Reads thread again "Op veigar"

Facepalms

There should be an automatic loss-detector built into the game. If you lost against X champion, you are unable to type X champion's name out on the Boards for 24 hours.

MiraweaveOct 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

This is getting tiresome..

Opens Lolking.com

Checks Gidor

Whole 2 games played as Veigar.

Both lost. Avg 3,5/8

Reads thread again "Veigar so frustrating to play against" ....

Facepalms

May I point out that pretty much every high elo player on these boards either agrees that he's imbalanced or mains him?

He's less good in low elo since people don't know how to play him safely. You just sit back and farm with Q from 950 range. It doesn't matter what your opponent picks, they can't prevent that.

HopFroggerOct 2, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=ME AM SMART,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4EItG2MP,comment-id=00090001,timestamp=2015-10-02T03:07:02.173+0000)

May I point out that pretty much every high elo player on these boards either agrees that he's imbalanced or mains him?

He's less good in low elo since people don't know how to play him safely. You just sit back and farm with Q from 950 range. It doesn't matter what your opponent picks, they can't prevent that.

No, "pretty much every high elo player" does not say that. Stating something is the truth does not make it so.

Jeepers, these Boards.

MiraweaveOct 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No, "pretty much every high elo player" does not say that. Stating something is the truth does not make it so.

Jeepers, these Boards.

Every single Diamond player I know agrees that he's broken.

HopFroggerOct 2, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=ME AM SMART,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4EItG2MP,comment-id=0009000100000000,timestamp=2015-10-02T03:13:24.996+0000)

Every single Diamond player I know agrees that he's broken.

OMG, they MUST be right cuz they're DIAMOND!

MiraweaveOct 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

OMG, they MUST be right cuz they're DIAMOND!

Have you considered that if almost all of them independently came to the same conclusion and they're all much better than you are, that they might be right and you might be wrong?

HopFroggerOct 2, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=ME AM SMART,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4EItG2MP,comment-id=000900010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-02T03:18:01.695+0000)

Have you considered that if almost all of them independently came to the same conclusion and they're all much better than you are, that they might be right and you might be wrong?

Or that you completely made up that point to try to sound smart?

MiraweaveOct 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Or that you completely made up that point to try to sound smart?

I didn't, but sure.

HopFroggerOct 2, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=ME AM SMART,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4EItG2MP,comment-id=00090001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-02T03:20:17.684+0000)

I didn't, but sure.

I don't believe you.

Veigar has minimal mobility and a very high-cooldown stun. If you have mobility, you will win against him. He has huge amounts of counterplay, including but not limited to:

Ahri Karma Varus Zed Lulu

He's not suddenly this overpowered champion; he's always been a sleeper champ that select individuals picked up. He's now just entered the meta and suddenly everyone's losing their minds.

Sit down. He's not OP.

Icestar1186Oct 2, 20152 votes

So, one then?

HexaDecimelOct 2, 20151 votes

Do you know all of the roughly 225,000 Diamond players?

SaiannaOct 2, 20152 votes

Before replying to you I've checked lolking.com for Veigar data across every tier.

Winrate is surprisingly high, ~52%. While popularity acts weird. On main site it's below 1%, But if you check closer it's around 11%.

I'm kind of confused. Before all those changes and reworks & DFG he had slightly below average 50% winrate. Overall I'd say he was kind of healthy.

Now? He's ball of stats, and even though i always liked him I don't know what to think. First thing: I'll NOT join "nerf/gut/change Veigar" bandwagon. No.

There are several champion with better winrate/playrate than him. I believe he deserves some time on top before Riot will touch him again.

Anyways.. It's pretty easy to play Veigar safely. You have huge stun just in case of ganks. Farming requires some timing (and sometimes even luck). You can forget about poking. Q or W+E combos are unreliable, often pushing mob wave towards enemy.

And to play against Veig? Don't rush damage like some retard (not you, ME AM SMART.. Just overall). Some MR early. Banshee somewhere in mid-game and you'll do fine. Oh and remember. if you stay in 1 spot like AFK, then you deserve to be killed. By anyone.

LaceUp23Oct 2, 20153 votes

You are kind of dumb.

LafouboyOct 2, 20153 votes

Here we go again.

LuggOct 2, 20153 votes

If you let Veigar get to the point where he can one shot you, you deserve to be one shot. He has a weak early game since he has no escapes at all and his stun is easily avoided if you have any reflexes at all.

MiraweaveOct 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If you let Veigar get to the point where he can one shot you, you deserve to be one shot. He has a weak early game since he has no escapes at all and his stun is easily avoided if you have any reflexes at all.

He doesn't have a weak earlygame. He has an average to strong earlygame, unless the Veigar player has absolutely no idea how to play his champion.

LuggOct 2, 20152 votes

He is very susceptible to ganks. Just have your jung or supp come mid and you can really put the hurt on him. You have to make him miss CS so he can't stack his passive.

Ironclad DragonOct 2, 20152 votes

Funny Thing: No one complained about him being overpowered a week ago...

Burrito DepotOct 2, 20152 votes

TL;DR OP doesn't know how to play as or against Veigar, so he is overpowered.

Craft ZeppelinOct 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

TL;DR OP doesn't know how to play as or against Veigar, so he is overpowered.

Ok if you go with that logic, it seems that people in world tournaments didint seem to know how to do it then?

Burrito DepotOct 2, 20152 votes

Don't recall everyone in worlds crying about him being overpowered. Nice try, I guess, though.

CatastropOct 2, 20152 votes

"Veigar lacks counterplay" I never thought I'd see the day.

DrNovaOct 2, 20152 votes

Why do people make these threads. Just because you can't figure out how to play against him or counter pick him doesn't mean he's op

warpenguin555Oct 2, 20152 votes

lol. just because he did in good in the lcs

NemeBroOct 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

lol. just because he did in good in the lcs

Yeah?

People were calling Veigar overpowered ever since his buff, not since he was used in the LCS. That he did well at Worlds only made more people start complaining.