You know what the difference between ADC balance, and all other class's balance?

hashinshin·Aug 16, 2015·65 votes·5,157 views

Riot has buffs incoming for Lucian next patch.

The very same Lucian that sees sporadic but frequent play across all region, including being picked in EU semifinals right now.

Reminds me of that time Riot buffed Vayne while she was still being picked. And that time Riot buffed Tristana while she was still being picked. No other class sees balance like this, if a champion gets picked competitively Riot goes "oh okay they're being played, we won't buff them." Or, worse yet, Riot goes "we CAN'T buff them, or they'll be OP!" ADCs though seem to be this special star-child of Riot games. Doesn't matter if an ADC is still a solid pick, they're not THE top tier pick, and therefore need buffs.

The closest thing I can think of honestly is the time Riot compensated Ahri for removing DFG (people weren't building DFG Ahri in Korea.) Other than that? Pretty much no comparison to how Riot treats ADCs. It's like they like to see what they can get away with before it becomes a huge balance issue. So long as they just keep sneaking in Vayne buffs nobody will notice right? I mean, right until she's basically picked every other game while maintaining a 52% win rate. And then even despite that Riot turns around and buffs Vayne again. Now it's Lucian's turn! Before that it was Tristana. Before that it was Sivir.

Then we turn around and wonder how Caitlyn got powercreeeped so hard.

72 Comments

Linna ExcelAug 16, 201547 votes

Isn't Lucian 1-15 in EU LCS atm? That's not good.

Why are ADCs players in the LCS picking terrible champs? Vardags picked him into sivir for 3 games and lost all 3.

ChargeItDownMidAug 16, 20152 votes

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SaltyKrackaAug 16, 201538 votes

No, the fact that he got picked so much despite his shit record shows that some players are irrationally attached to him and memories of his strength, and can also be read to show that some players have incredibly shallow champion pools.

ChargeItDownMidAug 16, 20154 votes

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SaltyKrackaAug 16, 201514 votes

You'd think so, wouldn't you?

But pros are people too. They aren't perfect little winning machines. And they most certainly have preferences and pools of champions that they are good and bad at.

ChargeItDownMidAug 17, 20153 votes

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plantersAug 17, 20153 votes

Actually gnar was made right before world's last year and was subsequently played 0 times. Not even samsung white (literally the best team ever made) bothered to pick him up and people were initially struggling with gnar because their was no consensus on what to build or how to play him. Also LCS and all other formats are played 1 patch behind live so if the players play solo que, which in NA most stream a lot so the answer is yes, they typically have at least 3 weeks to pick up the champion. That said, most pro-players don't have a large champion pools. If you look at not some but most players, there is a huge fall off between their best and worst champion. In the case of fnatic an EU team and undefeated at the moment their jungler once got 3 bans aimed at him and was forced onto Rengar. He made it work but rengar at the time was like C list on the jungler tier for pros because a lot of people knew how to play against him. Proof of that is that rengar game was one of his worst games, not bad overall just unimpressive for him. Lucian doesn't really outclass 2/3s of all league champions. He brings burst but he is in no way top tier. If the enemy team has a decent tank line Lucian becomes useless which is why he has been so bad more than anything else. Tanks are strong and frequently in the jungle. The armor nerfs incoming should help him some as well as the buffs, but saying that because he is staple to everyone's champion pool makes him the best is wrong. Lucian is just a generalist ADC. He has all the basics that an ADC wants without being a master of any. Without a niche, he fits into almost every comp without telling what you're comp will do. Another example is sivir. Fits everywhere and is more frequently picked and actually has a better win rate. Sivir also fits almost any-team comp because she gives huge mobility which is always good when you have a bunch of tanks. Also her W allows her to hit a whole team much easier than any champion. All the evidence suggests that lucian being picked is proof of several possible things: staple to any champion pool, maybe really fun, maybe needs to be more niche focused, maybe brings a lot of attachment. with sub 50% winrates among all levels of play for multiple patches I dont think OP is one of them

ChargeItDownMidAug 18, 20151 votes

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plantersAug 18, 20151 votes

Valid points and you're noting of gnars buff is interesting as well. This does not change the fact that rengar was not at all an ideal champion to use. Cinderhulk was still OP at the time and ideally he should have used a cinderhulk jungler. That he did not proves that he didnt have a cinderhulk champion that he felt comfortable on, at least equally so to rengar. Using your logic about taking the most OP whatever at the moment as being true, that fnatic did not bother to use a different cinderhulk champion shows that they were going pretty deep into his champion pool and that it is limited. In fact, the casters noted that he had a rather shallow champion pool. They noted that aimed bans at the jungler was a decent strategy and forced Fnatic closer to defeat than they have almost ever gotten.

Similarly, I feel that Lucian was just a forced picked. Lucian being picked doesnt necessarily mean Lucian is strong, but it does mean he FEELS generally acceptable in a lot of situation. Thus he still might not actually be that good, but if he FEELS good, then the player will immediately pick him.

Think of it this way. Do you really think that the players have enough time to consult all the data during pick and ban phase? Probably not. League has a huge amount of information and during that time you have to weigh general experience to your own experience. Please note, some people are so well ingrained into a champion that they can be counter picked and still win the match up in most competitive games. This is especially true in league where individual skill matters a lot in any individual counterpick scenario. Rarely do you get a counterpick where you auto win regardless of what your opponent does.

So what are the chances they literally take out a tablet consult something like OP.GG and go over win rate of champion X over Y while picking their champion? Realistically they probably dont. If anything, I think expecting a player to spend hours over solo que data rather than play is more than a little ambitious. Expecting the coaches to know all this and their players own abilities and the abilities of their opponents is once again a little ambitious as no matter what all you're data could be proven inaccurate if the opponent player in question just has a lot of skill on the champion and completely outplays your laner.

Please note, I dont know of a site that shows the statistical number of games necessary to play to increase your outplay potential against an opponent in a specific match up. I honestly do not expect such a thing to exist since it is highly specific and not incredibly likely to help unless you have exact values for your opponent which you most likely wont. So on the point of emotion dictating picks, it should be very likely even if not the only underlying factor.

ChargeItDownMidAug 18, 20151 votes

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plantersAug 19, 20151 votes

and yet at the time lucian was 1 and 15 and now something like 1 and 18. If nothing else he is slightly underpowered, if for no other reason than the fact that the meta is not in his favor. in the cinderhulk meta, lucian was a tier 3 adc. His reliance on burst without reliable sustained damage and range made him so. In many ways your original arguement had merit. Yes lucian's kit has a lot of strength in it, but in the meta of cinderhulk, which is slowly dying out, he is unquestionably subpar. Even this devourer meta we have entered, still makes him definitively underpowered. I would not suggest that he needs buffs, but that's digressing from the point I am trying to make. That point is that burst oriented champions in a league dominated by tanks are weak and because lucian is a burst oriented champion he is weak. No amount of skill can make up for a fundamental weakness like that. Only over inflated numbers can and in the case of lucian that is not the case as the win rate dictates.

On the part of the analysts, on paper lucian is once again strong, but if player doesnt have a good champion for the meta they wont perform. Look at Incarnation of cloud 9. I just read an article where it analyzed his performance this split. Bad shotcalling of C9 taken into account, incarnation played better in lane when he played champs that he liked.

here's a link: http://www.goldper10.com/article/2211.html

this shows that even if a player is good if they are forced onto a champion they dont like they will underperform. Not saying this is the end all be all but you have to take that into account. people are not robots. No matter how much you think pro just play and become epic and do things with this cold calculating minds, they do not. Only in korea and china can coaches fully override their players and that's not always wise. For instance, at MSI SKT's coach forced faker onto his best champion leblanc. Normally this would be sound, but this was actually a bait by EDG's coach. Knowing that SKT would go for the Leblanc they left it open and counterpicked it in all 5 lanes. This is a perfect example of emotion blocking cold hard rationale. According to your logic they should have predicted this because it was possible. Emotion, however, makes it logical to take leblanc because it something that will make you feel comfortable with on your team. In many ways lucian is in the higher echelons of ADCs by nature of his kit. It has almost everything an ADC wants. What it lacks is what makes him weak in this meta though. High sustained damage. If cinderhulk wasnt a thing you'd be unquestionably accurate to how lucian stacks in the meta. Because cinderhulk is a thing, you're not.

ChargeItDownMidAug 19, 20151 votes

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plantersAug 20, 20151 votes

And what defines a god tier champion? It's not just their kit it is also the meta. If you stick a champion into natural counters they will do poorly. Right now, Lucian's early is just off of strong because they've toned down his damage to keep him from being too much of a lane bully. While he may have a lot of mobility, his poor range makes him a risky late game champion. I am not saying Lucian doesn't out class a lot of champions in certain regards. What I am saying is that his dependence on burst, and the strong front lines that have been ever present all summer make him weak. This weakness means you need to be significantly better than your opponent to make him work. That does not mean he cant work, but he isnt working because the meta is simply shutting down his strengths.

I reiterate that if this was a different meta he would be top tier. Just before cinderhulk became a thing, he was top tier. This is not a question, but a fact. That said, until cinderhulk gets toned down a bit more which is happening next patch he will continue to be mid to bottom tier.

plantersAug 20, 20151 votes

That's not true. In a 1v1 match up Lucian beats out a lot of champions. League however is a 5v5 game (TT withstanding). in a team fight Lucian brings damage to the table, specifically in burst. Nothing else. We are in a tank meta. Burst is not good. So what would beat out Lucian's usefulness in a teamcomp where the enemy is a mass of hulking high HP targets. Champions that do this are Ashe , because her current crit passive actually out damages most ADCs as you do more aa. Corki because his poke is really strong. Jinx who has AOE crits, Kalista because her rend is OP, KogMaw since he is probably the highest damaging ADC right now, Sivir because the speed boost is always good, Tristana for the same reason as jinx, Twitch because he can mow straight through even the back line if he can get a good ult, Vayne because %hp true damage is OP. All these champions have great value against tanks because they do so much damage before(via poke) or during the fight that they can tear through them. Not one of these champions beats out lucian in a 1v1 and yet in a tank meta they will outshine him. This does not take into account midlane adcs like Varus and Ezreal who can, once again, poke down tanks or Urgot who just doesnt die. All these ADCs have been much more popular than lucian and the number of ADC champions played as ADCs is 18 right now. That's 9 champions who currently run just as well if not better than Lucian but only in the current meta. This would stick lucian into the bottom to mid tier of ADCs right now. Once tankiness goes down with 5.16, as well as his buffs, he will see a rise in viability. Until then, specifically this thursday, he will be mid-tier. After the new patch who knows. Probably back into top % but once again that is because of a meta shift.

To further back up my point here is a list of op.gg winrates right now

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend&roleSort=ADC

lucian is at the bottom of the soloque list. He made his pick on emotion and that's it.

A Miss FortuneAug 16, 20156 votes

I think It's because Lucian simply has mobility. Look at all of the popular ADCs in the LCS, almost all of them have a dash/blink.

Caitlyn Corki Kalista Lucian Tristana Sivir Vayne are pretty much the only ADCs I ever see in any LCS match with KogMaw Draven Graves Jinx Twitch Urgot being played once in a while, though I think Jinx's popularity significantly decreased after her nerfs and I believe Urgot is almost never played as an ADC anymore similar to Varus. Oh and I believe Kog'Maw is mostly played as an APC now in the LCS? I don't watch matches every time they're on, but I do frequently.

Pretty much every popular ADC with the exception of Sivir has at least a dash.

Linna ExcelAug 16, 20153 votes

Sivir has that ult though. I don't know why UoL didn't ban sivir either after game one. With the comp Fan was running, her ult really made things easier for them.

I get a mobility pick, but if someone like trist or cait is open, why not pick them? Since PoE was going for a late game comp, why not grab vayne and set your team for a late game comp.

Yes, kog maw is a mid now I think because of Luden's and Rylai's.

A Miss FortuneAug 16, 20152 votes

The thing with Sivir's ult is that if she wastes it, she can throw her team at a huge disadvantage since entire teams are sometimes built around her and her ultimate. Sometimes honestly It's better to just die and save your ultimate if you know a teamfight will start shortly after while you're up since you can potentially use it to ace them, than to use it for the CHANCE that you MIGHT survive. So I wouldn't say Sivir has mobility and the mobility she has, can have huge costs potentially.

I'm kind of surprised people haven't tried Kog'Maw with something like item 3040 item 3135 item 3020 item 3115 item 3151 item 3001 His entire kit does magic damage aside from his passive, and his W scales off AP.

CubedJusticeAug 17, 20151 votes

You'd definitely do damage as Kogmaw with that build, it's just that Rylai's and Luden's are just so core on him, because they increase his burst and let him kite.

kile147Aug 16, 201519 votes

Lucian has a 46% win rate and even players with 100+ games on him have <48% win rates. He's not in a good spot right now.

Doctor DymentAug 16, 201518 votes

"if a champion gets picked competitively"

This one sentence pretty much sums up the League experience. I have said this before and I will say it again. The ranked platform is not the only group that exists. ALL of the community plays normals. Just because ranked exists and shows champions played at the highest skill level, does not mean that there are not other ways to get information on if a champion should be balanced out.

TrebbiAug 16, 20158 votes

Trust me, Lucien is gonna be better when the game is overflowed with assassins simply because he is a dash adc.

Dash adc: assassin meta Less mobile/support ADC: Tank/bruiser meta

However I kinda agree that he is kinda overshadowed atm because he cant bully as hard as he used to or transition into lategame as many other champs.

SaltyKrackaAug 16, 20156 votes

No offense Hash, but despite all the picks Lucian's kind of shit right now.

The fact that Vardags picked him and lost every time is kind of proof that just getting picked in competitive is not proof of being strong.

LankPantsAug 16, 20152 votes

The fact that Vardags picked him and lost every time is kind of proof that just getting picked in competitive is not proof of being strong.

To be fair Vardags would have lost those games on any ADC. He's not as good of a player as Rekkles and UOL just isn't as good as Fnatic.

SaltyKrackaAug 17, 20151 votes

Probably true, but picking Lucian/Braum and forming the entire comp around that combo didn't exactly help.

LankPantsAug 17, 20152 votes

The only thing that could have helped UOL beat Fnatic was intervention from a god.

MinrogAug 17, 20152 votes

It's true. But he didn't have to give up free games at champion select screen either.

LankPantsAug 17, 20151 votes

Maybe you should watch Korea and China. There are good Lucian players in those regions.

MinrogAug 17, 20152 votes

I actually do watch those regions. I watch LMS/NA CS/EU CS as well when they are broadcast with English speaking announcers.

The last time I saw an LPL Lucian was OMG Uzi doing it like a month and a half ago but he still lost. I can't remember the last time I saw it in LCK, but maybe I missed one of them as there's only so much time and it's hard to catch up when it's SSG/SBENU or something.

Sakura MirageAug 16, 20154 votes

I don't see the reason to pick Lucian when you have graves. I mean vardags should lose because of this.

Linna ExcelAug 16, 20152 votes

Ehh, that's part of the problem. They had no engage in those games. They were playing a protect the ADC comp without an ADC that can carry the team. Finally PoE was playing smite mid after it got nerfed. I mean devourer kayle midlane. What kind of pick is that?

Shadow GilgameshAug 16, 20154 votes

As much as I hate Lucian, I'd actually really like to be able to make a botlane combo that can actually bury Vayne so hard she doesn't become a hyper carry.

Right now there's no good early game ADCs so even with a lockdown support like Leona or Blitz we can't wipe her out with all her self peel

RisurinAug 16, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Riot has buffs incoming for Lucian next patch.

The very same Lucian that sees sporadic but frequent play across all region, including being picked in EU semifinals right now.

Reminds me of that time Riot buffed Vayne while she was still being picked. And that time Riot buffed Tristana while she was still being picked. No other class sees balance like this, if a champion gets picked competitively Riot goes "oh okay they're being played, we won't buff them." Or, worse yet, Riot goes "we CAN'T buff them, or they'll be OP!" ADCs though seem to be this special star-child of Riot games. Doesn't matter if an ADC is still a solid pick, they're not THE top tier pick, and therefore need buffs.

The closest thing I can think of honestly is the time Riot compensated Ahri for removing DFG (people weren't building DFG Ahri in Korea.) Other than that? Pretty much no comparison to how Riot treats ADCs. It's like they like to see what they can get away with before it becomes a huge balance issue. So long as they just keep sneaking in Vayne buffs nobody will notice right? I mean, right until she's basically picked every other game while maintaining a 52% win rate. And then even despite that Riot turns around and buffs Vayne again. Now it's Lucian's turn! Before that it was Tristana. Before that it was Sivir.

Then we turn around and wonder how Caitlyn got powercreeeped so hard.

Are you kidding me ? have you read the patch notes in the last couple months ? its like filled with ADCs nerf with no compensation.. 5.15 : big sivir nerf 5.14 : mf rework that ended up feeling more like a nerf (rip grieving wounds) 5.13 : huge kalista nerf 5.12 : ashe nerf 5.11 : Lot of ashe nerf 5.10 : jinx nerf

you are telling me that the +10% ad damage on the second attack of passive (putting it to a total of 60% AD) at lvl 17-18 and allies procing the w move speed is gonna help the 1 win and 18 loss in LCS champion also surnamed lose-cian become broken ? come on now, get real.

I know you have a blind hate for ADCs for no reason, but now you are just outdoing yourself in term of ridicule.

stillserenityAug 16, 20152 votes

Ashe...nerfed?!?!?!? dude her arrow q can wipe out a tank mid game.....and squishies in a second...rip Veigar DrMundo Chogath just a few that go pop... not Sion though kill him you all in trouble

LuggAug 16, 20153 votes

{quoted}

5.15 : big sivir nerf 5.14 : mf rework that ended up feeling more like a nerf (rip grieving wounds) 5.13 : huge kalista nerf 5.12 : ashe nerf 5.11 : Lot of ashe nerf 5.10 : jinx nerf

Big Sivir nerf? You have to be kidding. Slight tweak at best. MF rework did make her stronger thanks to the improvements to Make It Rain and her ult. Kalista nerf barely noticed in actual gameplay. Ashe nerfed and is still a terror. Jinx nerf was completely laughable.

RisurinAug 17, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Big Sivir nerf? You have to be kidding. Slight tweak at best.

It's a nerf to what she is, a core strength, and the reason people were picking her in competitive. Nerfing the strength of a champion is big.

MF rework did make her stronger thanks to the improvements to Make It Rain and her ult.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/V5.14 ult was unchanged. E still has this weird mechanics of "you gotta stop to slow people chasing you".

i note i said felt more like a nerf overall

Kalista nerf barely noticed in actual gameplay.

right after the patch a few pros said how she felt more clunky and she does. + its an overall very bizarre way to nerf a champion. Still think nerfing the W passive would have been the best.

Ashe nerfed and is still a terror.

a terror ? what ? http://champion.gg/champion/Ashe/ADC 11th out of 18 ADCs (plat+ only) in average damage 15th out of 18 (plat+ only) in average kills the terror. (mind you she is fine as an utility adc, but there is a reason she has significatly dropped in popularity

Jinx nerf was completely laughable.

still a nerf. its just had better compensation than your average nerf.

KONO RUBICK DAAug 16, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Are you kidding me ? have you read the patch notes in the last couple months ? its like filled with ADCs nerf with no compensation.. 5.15 : big sivir nerf 5.14 : mf rework that ended up feeling more like a nerf (rip grieving wounds) 5.13 : huge kalista nerf 5.12 : ashe nerf 5.11 : Lot of ashe nerf 5.10 : jinx nerf

you are telling me that the +10% ad damage on the second attack of passive (putting it to a total of 60% AD) at lvl 17-18 and allies procing the w move speed is gonna help the 1 win and 18 loss in LCS champion also surnamed lose-cian become broken ? come on now, get real.

I know you have a blind hate for ADCs for no reason, but now you are just outdoing yourself in term of ridicule.

all those nerfs are "let's pretend we nerfed them"

sivir nerfed on the part that none cared kalista is still the same, don't tell me something changed. Retarded mobility, the 0.1% AD nerf on her AA is invisible her E was buffed ashe nerf :"Now only grants 1 stack per Volley or Enchanted Crystal Arrow" wow gj

jinx nerf didn't change the fact that she is a lane bully hyper carry

RisurinAug 17, 20154 votes

{quoted}

all those nerfs are "let's pretend we nerfed them"

those are a lot of nerf on the core strengths of these champions.

sivir nerfed on the part that none cared

her ult is one of the big part people play her wat ?

kalista is still the same, don't tell me something changed. Retarded mobility, the 0.1% AD nerf on her AA is invisible her E was buffed

she feel more clunky. I still think they should had nerfed W passive instead.

ashe nerf :"Now only grants 1 stack per Volley or Enchanted Crystal Arrow" wow gj

most of her nerf are on 5.11 and has damage nerfs.

jinx nerf didn't change the fact that she is a lane bully hyper carry

not a lane bully wat? she has poke, like most adcs. but bully ? no. and it nerfed her objective takign at most stages of the game.

DurzakaAug 16, 20153 votes

There are also only some 15 ADCs that need to be balance. And they all build similar items.

Whereas there are about 30+ mages that need to be balanced, and there are subsets of those 30 that build very differently from each other.

Balancing ADCs is easy to do. Balancing other classes are a mess.

Jungle Lux GodAug 16, 20152 votes

I think there is a good reason for having extra ADC balancing than other classes getting balanced.

When you consider these facts:

ADC's are valued for objective control, and therefore always get a spot on a team
ADC's have their own lane in the bot lane. They may go to other lanes (ie. Quinn or Vayne top or Varus mid), but there's always an ADC bot.
No other kind of champion goes in a bot lane carry position except for ADC's, except possibly the new Mordekaiser, or if you want to call Urgot a bruiser instead of a marksman

Because bot carry diversity is so small, it is much more urgent for what diversity that exists to be balanced than the other lanes, and much easier to balance because of the smaller champion pool.

Compare this to the other lanes. Jungle and Top have a decent variety of AP, AD, and tanky champions for their roles, mid has an extremely large mix of AP and AD champions with a huge variance on their strengths and weaknesses, and bot support has a decently sized mix of utility, AP, and tanky champions.

Because their champion pools are so much larger than the bot carry champion pools, it's much harder to balance it, and much less important that it be balanced than the bot champion pools.

That said, there does get to be some severe balance problems in the other lanes, especially the mid lane, where so many champions are subpar despite being healthy for the game and gets dominated super hard by a handful of champions so hard that the only viable champions are the strong champions and those that can deal with the strong champions. I personally would like it if Riot balanced non-ADC's like they do ADC's because of the diversity that would come out of it.

KONO RUBICK DAAug 16, 20152 votes

You seem to forget one other thing that make the entier class cancer even if we forget that they are requiered to win the game.

Riot balance the game around them

literally everything that put sticks in their weel is nerfed, assassins, malphite, rammus, thornmail,frozen heart, this is bullshit

Slamurai JackAug 16, 20152 votes

It's not like the buff they're giving him is going to do anything anyway. Oh wow, his allies can proc his W for him but it only lasts half as long! Lucian God Tier, here we come! Just another classic "buff, but not really a buff" from Riot.

KlubhouseAug 16, 20152 votes

Lucian's is most likely seeing buffs because Vayne's pick rate has skyrocketed due to devourer-meta.

It's not Vayne that needs fixing, with Vayne being so prominent its probably acting as an important tip off to riot that traditional lane bullies just aren't able to do their jobs effectively enough, hence, the buff to lucian.

GreenetteAug 17, 20152 votes

You know, I'm usually all on board to pass the salt around over how sloppy Riot can be but for ADC's I usually have little to say.

I mean, what do you expect to happen when they change any ADC even slightly? They're a delicate class - the only one that have a majority build path and each and every one fulfill the same niche role. Any change in itemization affects the entire pool which is why it's difficult to change those items. The ADC pool is like a food chain in flux, those at the top can only stay there for so long because the players and Riot don't like definitive best in slot champions, so Riot has to figure out how to remove them without causing too much harm.

I for one am glad that Lucian is getting a buff. There are so few ADC's with the versatility and reliability he provides. New and experienced players alike should always have this option when they're pressed to choose and as dueling and mid game ADC's are prominent right now Caitlyn, Graves, and co. just don't feel like that option.

General MuricaAug 17, 20152 votes

Meantime, bruiser/fighter buffs while top laners 1v3.

fractalfantasiesAug 17, 20152 votes

This forum is a fucking joke.

Vayne becomes strong not because she is buffed, but because her counters are nerfed

This forum complains OMG VAYNE OP

Vayne's counters start getting buffed

This forum complains OMG RITO FAVOURS ADCS

Just grow up.

MunchauzensAug 17, 20151 votes

Yes, he's played in LCS occasionally. He has i believe 1 win out of the 15 or 16 times he's been picked.

Consider, also, that LCS isn't the only measure of balance. Lucian feels really, really weak right now. I remember when he was dominating botlane and don't want that, but there's currently pretty much no reason to play him. His range is too low for him to teamfight effectively and his mobility does not make up for it. He is less mobile than vayne and has 50 lower range. His spells have damage but not enough to make up for the lack of dps he can't provide since he often can't comfortably aa in teamfights. His lanebully status has been massively toned down and there are multiple adcs that bully lane way harder than him currently. His burst is good, but in my opinion not worth being so incredibly short ranged. The increased utility on his w will help him be more mobile but will not push him over the top. In my experience with him, he absolutely NEEDS buffs to be anywhere near relevant. I'm also pretty confident the upcoming buffs he has will not make him overly strong or bring him to 50% winrate. (he's currently at 46%)

YOU BEEN WARNEDAug 17, 20151 votes

Careful Hashinshin, you're treading in the ADC-main infested boards. You must proceed with caution.

Byakuya KuchikiAug 18, 20151 votes

OP i want you to tell me this.

do you think Vayne is strong? do you think she needs nerfs? why is it that she needs nerfs? why dont we just buff the other ADCs up to her level since they are only picked in NA LCS/EU LCS for the strong tower push early and in LCK and LPL because they need the ranged damage to take towers later in the game. they are picked in solo queue because other things that work dont work without being organized?(basically why not buff other ADCs since the role in general isn't strong right now) why shouldn't lucian be buffed so that other lane bullies can also be buffed so that we can balance the role also