Let's have a CALM, RATIONAL discussion about the Vayne buffs on PBE

HateDaddy··113 votes·10,082 views

For starters, we know her Q proccing W on two autos was a bug. However, she's lost her ability to crit on her Qs bonus damage, which is a big fucking deal. She's losing quite a bit of early/mid game damage on account of this because right now, Vayne currently goes item 3087 into item 3031 while maxing her Q (tumble).

Statistics back this up:

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Vayne

https://na.op.gg/champion/vayne/statistics/adc

This is a huge nerf to her early/mid game because with ult + Q + shiv proc + crit with IE/Shiv basically one-shots squishies and the reality is, that was never supposed to be Vaynes design. She's a tank buster, she kills front liners. So this change with her W doing more damage in exchange for her Q losing crit on bonus damage is considerably fair in my estimation. Honestly, by itself I would actually suggest that this would be a nerf. But this wasn't the only change, we all know whats being proposed now:

Final Hour (R): New Effect: "While under the effects of Final Hours, Vayne is revitalized when enemy champions she has damaged recently are killed, healing for 20% of their maximum health

Vayne must have damaged an enemy champion withing 3 seconds to earn healing."

I'm torn. This is only an effect that occurs while her ult is active and typically vayne uses her ult to stealth around, kite champions out and stay alive and she will go back in to clean up well after Final Hour wears off. We also tend to associate Vayne with being a tank buster, which she is, but we typically never actually see her become incredibly popular during tank metas (at least not more popular than she already is) and there's a reason for that.

Despite her ability to melt tanks and being arguably the best scaling ADC (honestly it's a toss up between her and Kog imo), she has to get dangerously close to champions because she has no way to extend her range beyond 550. Tanks can close that gap pretty easily and because of vaynes short range, she is generally easier to pin down - the only exception is when she times her ult properly and uses her team correctly to play around her but that's incredibly difficult both for vayne and her teammates. She's often far more difficult to protect and as a result, she tends to be less reliable. That's why she's almost never broken in heavy teamfight metas, but she is when bruisers/assassins are meta because her self peel is far valuable against less CC heavy team.

This isn't suggesting that Vayne is weak late game: she's not, because she has the 2nd highest winrate of any ADC past 40 minutes. Vayne is an amazing late game carry both by metrics of statistics and any anecdotal analysis I can provide. However, her role and current play pattern is unhealthy as fuck. The crit Vayne nuking squishies isn't her job and the fact that this is how she itemizes represents a problem: despite her expensive tastes, I.E/Shiv rush is more valuable than what should be her bread and butter BoTRK because Q max nuke just seems to be more reliable. That's a problem, regardless of her level of power because that isn't consistent with her design philosophy.

I can see Riot's line of thinking here. Let's make Vayne less about lane and skirmish dominance and more about the teamfighting risky tank buster she's supposed to be. And honestly, I don't think this change is actually going to benefit her much. She's losing quite a bit of lane power now and Shiv rush will be dead on account of that. And since she will be forced to max W, her power against squishy targets is going to go down significantly. This means her late game HAS to be even stronger in compensation for what amounts to a significant nerf to her early/mid game.

I'm in favor of getting rid of the crit nuke Vayne, that shit is dumb. And as I've stated, that's obviously not her design goal. I don't even think this really nets as a buff overall because if Vayne is in a position to participate in a kill within 3 seconds of not dying, chances are she was winning that fight anyway. This makes her snowball harder when ahead and win harder when it goes to late game and it doesn't actually address her issues . I wouldn't be surprised if as a result of these changes, she ends up actually being much worse and this mechanic gets buffed to ridiculous levels in compensation and she ends up being game breaking.

I don't pretend to know what to do with Vayne - maybe the current style is simply better to let be until a better, healthier alternative is found. I simply think this isn't the answer because it just makes Vayne win harder but doesn't give her consistency when behind or even.

153 Comments

Mira Arya Enthe57 votes

"CALM, RATIONAL discussion"

These are the boards. People don't go to boards if they are happy or rational. Riot even once said they ignore most rage posts so it is not a big deal. People come here to rage, get social satisfaction out of upvotes or play some excessively bias "I know how games should be designed" garbage where they pretend to be highly intellectual(my former shtick). If you want rational discussion about patches watch something like LS or Phreaks patch notes, people with actual knowledge who aren't just bitching.

The gameplay board is literally just a safe space for whining about every way Riot hurt people's feelers with changes, so they don't bother any rational people of the silent majority with it.

The fact that you got downvoted for wanting to have calm rational discussion shows the mob-rule mentality here, nobody cares about reason. They just want to make a dozen more whining posts about who got what skins or why supports are so abused and need to be protected rather than actually discuss gameplay.

HateDaddy18 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4AwQWrlE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-08-09T22:46:23.389+0000)

"CALM, RATIONAL discussion"

These are the boards. People don't go to boards if they are happy or rational. Riot even once said they ignore most rage posts so it is not a big deal. People come here to rage, get social satisfaction out of upvotes or play some excessively bias "I know how games should be designed" garbage where they pretend to be highly intellectual(my former shtick). If you want rational discussion about patches watch something like LS or Phreaks patch notes, people with actual knowledge who aren't just bitching.

The gameplay board is literally just a safe space for whining about every way Riot hurt people's feelers with changes, so they don't bother any rational people of the silent majority with it.

The fact that you got downvoted for wanting to have calm rational discussion shows the mob-rule mentality here, nobody cares about reason. They just want to make a dozen more whining posts about who got what skins or why supports are so abused and need to be protected rather than actually discuss gameplay.

u rite

Arakadia4 votes

Most of what you said applies to SOME of the boards. For example, C&C is often a lot less heated.

Phelas9 votes

Yes, because Gameplay boards has a different community. People come here to complain, the majority has something to tell that doesn't appease them.

While C&C is full of creative people who want to share thoughts about visual stuff or new champs, etc. Meanwhile everything in Gameplay is just "OMFG HOW DARE YOU RITO" until their problem is kinda solved and they never return.

Marshbouy3 votes

I FEEL SO VALIDATED! On one hand I'm like "shit, not mira, she was one of my favorite posters", but on the other hand I'm like http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/954/924/bd1.jpg

Honestly this is what happened to me. I tried being an "intellectual" on the boards for a while but just got worn down and started meta shitposting and occasionally making a good post here and there. RIP old Mira, can we shitpost together now :P

Mira Arya Enthe6 votes

♡♡♡♡♡♡♡

Big Lincoln9 votes

i skipped that and went right to shitposting

50000000000000005 votes

shitposting is the language of the internet

Mizaya2 votes

You just said everything I've wanted to say LOL. I'm done here.

Scary Door22 votes

Nothing wrong with the changes at all.

The more the Boards over-react, the more likely it is that the changes are/were good.

Chromatic Eagle5 votes

Most of it was because they thought the bug was intended. Since it's a bug, there's not much to complain about.

TurquoiseYoshi14 votes

I like the changes. It makes her less of a surprise ADC assassin (something the Boards hate), and turning her into a relatively fair late-game teamfighter. The heal is interesting, I'm not a huge fan of that as a specific buff, but it shouldn't be terrible. It does give her a sort of reset, like Trist and Jinx, to use in late-game teamfights.

Overall, I expect it to not be insanely broken.

fuffychan13 votes

Vayne seems to bring all the baddies out of the woodwork. Cant even have buffs here and nerfs there without people crying about the end of the world. Its pathetic.

{quoted}

And yet that same champion has the ability to farm for 30 minutes, and then completely obliterate a team in a 1v5. "no reliable cc", her E's stun literally lasts for for years if you use it right. Then again, people will deny anything

^ heres a quote from a guy that got massive upvotes.

"vayne 1v5" "stun literally lasts for years"

Its like going to a daycare to expect to discuss nuclear technology. Aint happenin.

Automated Riven1 votes

I got chewed out for pointing out that a 1.5 second stun was average at best. :(

Glory ln Death2 votes

Well, it's a bit better than average, but it's allowed to be, since it's pretty conditional, since it needs a wall.

Ralanr10 votes

Personally, I'm not a fan of her heal. As a champion that already normally builds item 3153 and maybe a item 3072, it's just going to be so much harder for champions that are supposed to kill her to actually kill her in teamfights.

At the very least it should not start out at 20%.

Big Lincoln14 votes

new spirit visage vayne bruiser build

Ralanr21 votes

Stop. Giving. Me. NIGHTMARES.

HateDaddy16 votes

{quoted}

Personally, I'm not a fan of her heal. As a champion that already normally builds item 3153 and maybe a item 3072, it's just going to be so much harder for champions that are supposed to kill her to actually kill her in teamfights.

At the very least it should not start out at 20%.

Think about it though:

Final Hours duration is 8/10/12 seconds. This means, assuming she auto attacks a dying target within the first second second of her ult, she has 2/3/4 chances to proc this heal in that 8/10/12 second duration. Under any of those circumstances, assuming Vayne is in a position to kill a target or participate in a kill on a target during that 3 second window, wouldn't you think it'd be likely she was winning that fight anyway? The first or second procs of this heal are the ones where the window of it to be useful for actually winning what might've been a lost teamfight actually exist. If Vayne is proccing this 2-3 times within that first 3 second window or 8-12 total second window under any circumstance, she was winning that teamfight hard anyway.

Does this really help her when she needs it most? Does this really take her to a new level of broken currently? I'm really not so sure, Vayne can kill front liners quick but if she's able to do it within 3 seconds or he part of the deletion of a front liner in 3 seconds, I just don't envision this happening in a scenario where Vayne or her team stood a chance of losing it. At that point, all this does is make her win harder when ahead in exchange for early/mid game nerfs. That's a massive power adjustment and overall I think it's poor on all levels and not because it's insanely broken. And as I stated, because of that, I think it can lead to buffs that can make it insanely broken.

Ralanr8 votes

So basically it just sounds impractical and only good for saving her from a sudden case of "Death by DoT from beyond the grave!"

HateDaddy9 votes

{quoted}

So basically it just sounds impractical and only good for saving her from a sudden case of "Death by DoT from beyond the grave!"

Maybe. The reality is, the only time it will be useful is within the 3 seconds of that first kill. This is likely the only point of a fight where you could say the winner of a teamfight is undecided but even past that, at 2 champions I don't think it's useful. If Vayne kills or participates in 2 kills within 3-6 seconds of a total 8-12 second window in a teamfight, I don't envison a scenario where Vaynes team was losing that teamfight.

This even makes shit like GA less practical on her now. That's not saying she won't build it but it's just another thing you notice. This could make her godlike in smaller skirmishes but isn't that what she already is now with her Q/R crit procs? It's just replacing a problematic design - and I say problematic lightly, Vayne isn't even great right now - with a design that basically ensures Vayne of victory when she's ahead.

Put it like this, in all of those scenarios where the heal could make a difference, id still trade that in for her Qs bonus damage gritting because that will have a far more reliable impact on a fight being won or lost than this heal granted in a ridiculously small time frame will.

Gubaguy8 votes

calm and rational... i can do that...

Final Hour (R): New Effect: "While under the effects of Final Hours, Vayne is revitalized when enemy champions she has damaged recently are killed, healing for X% of their maximum health

https://media.giphy.com/media/HUkOv6BNWc1HO/giphy.gif

Wimbledofy1 votes

honestly that secondary part of her ult sounds so useless

Gubaguy1 votes

It starts at 20%, so lets say you kill a fed cho, because your vayne and you're smart enough not to get flash ulted, most late game cho's have 7k+ HP, thats 1400 health restored.

Lets say its NOt cho, and jsut a normal tank, or a juggernaut, who regularly have between 3500-5k HP before games end, thats 700-1000 health restore for a kill, meaning that once a vayne gets fed the game is over, all she needs is one good teamfight and she will sweep your team in seconds.

I suck at Jhin3 votes

You do realize that it's worthless if you're at max hp? I rarely see edge cases where vayne just barely survives a fight, she either blows up or completely rapes enemy team, and if it's the latter, it's useless, also like every adc, she buys lifesteal anyway.

The ult part would work if they didn't remove crit from Q, then she could ult, nuke few squishies and heal back up the damage they did while trying to kill you, then proceed to do the same with tanks, lol.

Unless you go full as tank...

TyrekGoldenspear6 votes

One thing we have to make sure we understand here is that Vayne will be doing much less damage than before. She isn't going to be pulling a Batman and taking you out from the shadows anymore like she used to. Once that fact is understood these changes are better put into perspective.

Marshbouy4 votes

thank you so much. I logged onto the boards expecting 5 more "LMAO PERMABAN VAYNE RITO IS RETARDEEEEED" threads but I saw this instead. Thank you.

Serika Zero3 votes

This is coming from the same guy that kept making Akali hate posts when all she got was 2 seconds less CD on her W in the early game and an extra 0.1% ap damage on her passive............... yeh, i'm not taking you seriously

DuskDaUmbreon3 votes

Eh. Someone can be illogical about one thing and logical about another.

HateDaddy6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4AwQWrlE,comment-id=001b,timestamp=2017-08-10T09:17:46.745+0000)

This is coming from the same guy that kept making Akali hate posts when all she got was 2 seconds less CD on her W in the early game and an extra 0.1% ap damage on her passive............... yeh, i'm not taking you seriously

Hi I'm HateDaddy, known regular shitposter on General Discussion for the last 5 years. How are you friend?

EcchiOtakuTM3 votes

Don't they remember how stun evelynn was before the rework? Are they really that damn short on memory???

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt since vayne has to be in ulti AND damage them within 3 seconds of them dying, but still I really feel like this'll break her like what it was doing for stun eve.

LichKing2342 votes

but stun eve was really durning season 0-1 where alot of shit was broken durning that time

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Dam it was? How dam long have I been playing this game lol....

I have taken week-month breaks occasionally but jesus I havn't been repeatedly playing a game so much...

LichKing2342 votes

its ok bro but thats when eve had her stun right now i dont think any assassin has a stun

Dracocrash2 votes

I for one, like the changes. Relying on a dice role crit Q was not satisfying for the vayne player when it didn't work out , and not satisfying for the enemy when it DID work out.

This way, vayne's power is more reliable and hence, can be seen coming.

Its a win win for both vayne and her enemies if you ask me.

But, the true damage does not make up for the loss in early game power thats hitting vayne (even with the minimum silver bolts damage buff)

so, they decided to give her healing on her ultimate.

Overall, they have lowered vaynes early mid game power and buffed her mid late game.

And if anyone brings up the double Q proc, it was a bug. S T O P.

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

I for one, like the changes. Relying on a dice role crit Q was not satisfying for the vayne player when it didn't work out , and not satisfying for the enemy when it DID work out.

This way, vayne's power is more reliable and hence, can be seen coming.

Its a win win for both vayne and her enemies if you ask me.

But, the true damage does not make up for the loss in early game power thats hitting vayne (even with the minimum silver bolts damage buff)

so, they decided to give her healing on her ultimate.

Overall, they have lowered vaynes early mid game power and buffed her mid late game.

And if anyone brings up the double Q proc, it was a bug. S T O P.

I disagree though, I don't think the ult heal will be that useful. This is only speculation though naturally, I admit I could totally be wrong.

An Enemy Sutando2 votes

Well you don't need to worry anymore because the changes got reverted.

Iota Theta2 votes

[{quoted}](name=An Enemy Sutando,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4AwQWrlE,comment-id=001e,timestamp=2017-08-10T11:32:14.590+0000)

Well you don't need to worry anymore because the changes got reverted.

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/6srf21/89_pbe_update_thunder_lord_orrn_splash_more/dlf3kzy/?context=10000

Not completely reverted. Just not enough time to make the changes right, it seems.

RiotRiot Axes11 votes

I would characterize them as a successful experiment - we got the information we wanted out of playtesting the changes. We still believe we need to act on Vayne (both buff and nerf), probably won't have time to land them for 7.17 (maybe not 7.18 either, as its the worlds patch, depending on magnitude). When we do ship them, they won't be the list you saw on PBE, some elements might stay, nothing set in stone.

There's a serious conversation to be had about whether we're being too permissive of allowing experimental changes out to the PBE - it seems to be causing some fairly dramatic pain and we are able to do those experiments entirely in-house without them going to PBE, we just haven't been prioritizing that.

Spice POWAH7 votes

allowing experimental changes out to the PBE

This means letting things you test internally go onto the pbe, right? I don't have a PBE account, but I'm still personally fine with weird new things going onto PBE, it's just that this time everyone freaked out because of the bug that caused Q to apply 2 stacks of W in combination with the actual intended buffs.

Anyway, it's good to put these new things onto PBE because the players can find out strategies and stuff that might get missed in private, secret testing, I think.

CleverSloth1 votes

"Lets have a calm rational discussion...."

Let me translate - I play vayne and I love that they're giving crazy buffs to a 51% win rate champ.

HateDaddy24 votes

{quoted}

"Lets have a calm rational discussion...."

Let me translate - I play vayne and I love that they're giving crazy buffs to a 51% win rate champ.

So you're totally okay with losing a colassal fuck ton of damage in exchange for a heal that might be useful 10% of the time? I dunno man, I see that as a nerf, even with the 2% increase on silver bolts.

Ahristocats11 votes

damn hatedaddy, how can u defend vayne u r for sure vayne main u monster !!!!

good post btw

HateDaddy8 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4AwQWrlE,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2017-08-10T05:39:28.913+0000)

damn hatedaddy, how can u defend vayne u r for sure vayne main u monster !!!!

good post btw

Dude, the more I look at this, the more I feel like this is an overall nerf. Maybe I'm crazy or out of my mind. But either way, as annoying as Vayne is, she's ten times better to deal with than shit like Trist, Jinx and even Twitch. She's so short ranged and easy to pin down, I just don't understand the refusal to accept that she's allowed to be good.

Ahristocats8 votes

Kog, don't forget the freaking kog that no one complains about while he just 2 shots you and while he's a scripting champ

And if you want an answer damage wise it's a buff against tanks, 2% more true damage combined with guinsoo (now that q can't crit you have more reasons to buy it) is a great thing against tanks and bruisers

however, not being able to crit for 1500 against an enemy adc is a big nerf

and her midgame is being nerfed, because like you said before she needed shiv+ie to be relevant now she would need BORK+guinsoo which costs more and also deals less damage against squishies

HateDaddy3 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4AwQWrlE,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-10T08:12:52.179+0000)

Kog, don't forget the freaking kog that no one complains about while he just 2 shots you and while he's a scripting champ

And if you want an answer damage wise it's a buff against tanks, 2% more true damage combined with guinsoo (now that q can't crit you have more reasons to buy it) is a great thing against tanks and bruisers

however, not being able to crit for 1500 against an enemy adc is a big nerf

and her midgame is being nerfed, because like you said before she needed shiv+ie to be relevant now she would need BORK+guinsoo which costs more and also deals less damage against squishies

Yeah and she already melted tanks when afforded the opportunity so the buff doesn't net much when considering the nerf.

Another thing about guinsoos is that the build path sucks for Vayne because she has no AP scaling. So she legit buys recurve and pick axe and sits on 1700 gold, not to mention gunisoos needs to be stacked and that's not easy for her.

Mizaya4 votes

You didn't even bother to op.gg him before posting this and just assumed that he was a Vayne main?

Is it that rare for someone on gameplay boards to not just be biased towards the champions they play?

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

You didn't even bother to op.gg him before posting this and just assumed that he was a Vayne main?

Is it that rare for someone on gameplay boards to not just be biased towards the champions they play?

Whenever I op.gg people, I just end up being even more disappointed in them than I already was

Abibyama3 votes

You should be an ornn main :P

Ornn: I'm used to this level of dissappointment

aspects11 votes

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