Boards›Gameplay

I'm fine with the statement that damage is too high this season

HateDaddy··65 votes·3,942 views

And I'm fine with it being blamed on keystones and all that multiplicative damage amplifications you can get in two of the three trees.

What I'm not fine with is this ridiculous nonesense that tanks are dying instantly when that simply isn't happening. Im willing to discuss league with anyone, regardless of rank and I'll never use it against you (unless you start attacking me as a player or using anecdotal), but I'm not going to discuss this. Tanks are not dying instantly, they're having no problems at all living as long as a tank should be. I suspect tanks are balanced, probably the most balanced they've been. But other shit, from all classes so this isn't a specific abuse of a certain class, is just way too dumb right now.

I truly believe damage is too high across the board and I believe whatever is meta is whatever has ridic base damages and can abuse Fervor, TLD, Grasp and DFT. That's why Ekko continues to pop up because he can abuse the shit out of 2 of the 4 keystones, can rush item 3057 for a ridiculous powerspike (and sheen being a good rush on everything this season has been another problem entirely) and then proceeds to abuse the damage amps/keystones with his base damages + sheen procs.

This is one example but it's coming from all classes across the board and whatever isn't abusing this combination of things is considered weak, even though in reality it probably isn't weak, other shit has just gotten ridiculously abusive. If there's a reason tanks aren't being played consistently, this is that reason. It's not because they're useless or die too fast, having a dedicated tank is always good. But overall the tank class just isn't abusing masteries/items like it was in the beginning of the season where even tanks were ridiculous damage dealers when they shouldn't have been.

I'm not against keystones staying even though I'd personally prefer to see them removed. But if they stay, Riot seriously needs to rebalance them and tweak them massively because they have warped balance in this game unlike anything I've ever seen. And while I'm no beta player, I've been around since the beginning of season 2 and I truly believe that speaks volumes.

143 Comments

Eedat39 votes

Tanks? Maokai Malphite Leona

or "Tanks"? Ekko Yasuo Fizz

ForgiveColour5 votes

Yeah if ahri builds adc items shes still a mage

Sick logic dude

Adriqnohee2 votes

She will be an Ahri playing like and adc, Ekko Yasuo Fizz are not being played as tankers, they are being played as juggernauts.

Abyssphere17 votes

Yeah, no. Fizz, Yasuo and Ekko, even when built tanky as hell, could not be much further away from juggernauts. The only thing they have in common is being melee damage dealers.

Adriqnohee13 votes

My bad, I meant Divers.

ForgiveColour25 votes

"Tanks should survive at least 10 seconds in late game 1v5" gameplay board circlejerk is so much aids

HateDaddy21 votes

{quoted}

"Tanks should survive at least 10 seconds in late game 1v5" gameplay board circlejerk is so much aids

you can easily survive ten seconds as a tank of you properly zone control/kite. Going in 1v5 is how you blow up.

ProfDrDeath21 votes

So, basically you have to work with your team? I think you're onto the problem there...

ForgiveColour15 votes

Sucks that most of gameplay board doesnt understand that and thinks tanks should be unkillable and tanky builds are troll lul

MunchCrunchLunch3 votes

{quoted}

you can easily survive ten seconds as a tank of you properly zone control/kite. Going in 1v5 is how you blow up.

a vel koz doing 1500 true damage is how you blow up as a tank.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

a vel koz doing 1500 true damage is how you blow up as a tank.

wow it's almost as if you let the true damage dealing champion do his full combo, he will do damage

As a tank, why in gods name are you not interrupting him lol

Limrick3 votes

He is literally the tank-killing mage. That's like complaining that a Vayne can shred a tank late game.

Keìron2 votes

brand is the tank-killing mage

TotalJerk2 votes

Not anymore.

Keìron1 votes

now more than before.

rmch993 votes

Vel'koz deals with high resistance low hp tanks because he has flat true damage, Brand deals with low resistance high hp tanks because he has %max hp magic damage. They're both anti-tank mages, just against different types of tanks.

ProfDrDeath18 votes

I honestly think that keystones should be less about "free" damage, and more about amplifying/shifting the way you play your champion.

Let's just take the four uninspired/damage focused keystones you mentioned. I call them uninspired, because, while delivering on a concept for shifting the way a champion is played, they do so in the most boring, bland way possible - by simply giving a damage (and potentially sustain) bonus.

Thunderlord's Decree: Offensive, burst-focused keystone. A keystone to give your champion a bit more "oomph" in short, focused engagements. Also, has a distinct touch of being combo-based, which could be something interesting to differentiate it from Stormraider's Surge. Focus: Offense, burst, combos

Fervor of Battle: Sustained damage keystone, offensive, with a focus on auto-attacks. Ramping up in champ-to-champ combat means that it is less useful as a burst tool. Focus: Offense, sustained, auto-attacks, ramping

Deathfire Touch: Sustained damage keystone, offensive nature, with a focus on spells. Nature as a burn rewards spacing out spells and synergizes well with poke. Focus: Offense, sustained, spells, DoT

Grasp of the Undying: Mixed offensive/defensive nature with damage and sustain, currently with an emphasis on the damage part. Effect only takes places after a bit of time in combat, meaning weak against burst. Strongest keystone for tanky melees in lane. Weaker on ranged champions, for a good reason. Focus: Tanky champions, damage/sustain, longer-duration combat Personally, I think that this keystone would be better if it was less damage and more sustain, meaning with reversed ratios and then balanced around that (possibly with a longer window/cooldown in the early levels to prevent the sustain from being overwhelming in lane).

I'd love for Riot to redesign the four keystones with these aspects in mind, but remaking them in such a way that they are actually interesting and less of a burden for the game's health.

HateDaddy5 votes

{quoted}

I honestly think that keystones should be less about "free" damage, and more about amplifying/shifting the way you play your champion.

Let's just take the four uninspired/damage focused keystones you mentioned. I call them uninspired, because, while delivering on a concept for shifting the way a champion is played, they do so in the most boring, bland way possible - by simply giving a damage (and potentially sustain) bonus.

Thunderlord's Decree: Offensive, burst-focused keystone. A keystone to give your champion a bit more "oomph" in short, focused engagements. Also, has a distinct touch of being combo-based, which could be something interesting to differentiate it from Stormraider's Surge. Focus: Offense, burst, combos

Fervor of Battle: Sustained damage keystone, offensive, with a focus on auto-attacks. Ramping up in champ-to-champ combat means that it is less useful as a burst tool. Focus: Offense, sustained, auto-attacks, ramping

Deathfire Touch: Sustained damage keystone, offensive nature, with a focus on spells. Nature as a burn rewards spacing out spells and synergizes well with poke. Focus: Offense, sustained, spells, DoT

Grasp of the Undying: Mixed offensive/defensive nature with damage and sustain, currently with an emphasis on the damage part. Effect only takes places after a bit of time in combat, meaning weak against burst. Strongest keystone for tanky melees in lane. Weaker on ranged champions, for a good reason. Focus: Tanky champions, damage/sustain, longer-duration combat Personally, I think that this keystone would be better if it was less damage and more sustain, meaning with reversed ratios and then balanced around that (possibly with a longer window/cooldown in the early levels to prevent the sustain from being overwhelming in lane).

I'd love for Riot to redesign the four keystones with these aspects in mind, but remaking them in such a way that they are actually interesting and less of a burden for the game's health.

Great post, 100% agreed.

JRobin312 votes

I agree that Keystones as power boosts was a bad idea. RIOT wanted these power boosts because they believe that power is what makes masteries "meaningful" or "interesting" and that is not the case.

Giga Kahuna2 votes

i really would love having less damage and more sustain on grasp

Akali is SO HOT16 votes

Tanks will never be viable unless they can go 1v5 the enemy team at 40 minutes with only a single tank item.

HateDaddy10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4AVT1Yrz,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-09-05T17:28:53.234+0000)

Tanks will never be viable unless they can go 1v5 the enemy team at 40 minutes with only a single tank item.

O-H

Akali is SO HOT6 votes

I-O

jaymc11306 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4AVT1Yrz,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-09-05T17:28:53.234+0000)

Tanks will never be viable unless they can go 1v5 the enemy team at 40 minutes with only a single tank item.

Season 2 Mundo comes to mind. Warmaog, FoN, Sunfire, Abysal, Randuins, Tabi. Dive the enemy team 1v5 under both nexus turrets. Press R. Heal for 600 or 700 HP per second. Get penta kill. Walk out of nexus turret aggro with full hp. Fun times man. Fun times. 6 items, I know, but I feel its relevant since that's the type of fight you allude to here.

Dat shiet was silly... Any time some one says the words "Tank meta" all I can think is what would these people have said about the unkillable death machines from s2 who bought an oracles elixir during lane phase and never once died so they kept that buff for the next 35 minutes.

RamRanchDressing2 votes

{quoted}

Season 2 Mundo comes to mind. Warmaog, FoN, Sunfire, Abysal, Randuins, Tabi. Dive the enemy team 1v5 under both nexus turrets. Press R. Heal for 600 or 700 HP per second. Get penta kill. Walk out of nexus turret aggro with full hp. Fun times man. Fun times. 6 items, I know, but I feel its relevant since that's the type of fight you allude to here.

Dat shiet was silly... Any time some one says the words "Tank meta" all I can think is what would these people have said about the unkillable death machines from s2 who bought an oracles elixir during lane phase and never once died so they kept that buff for the next 35 minutes.

God bless I wish I played back then

jaymc11301 votes

{quoted}

God bless I wish I played back then

You say that now...

But trust me, it was an entirely different game back then.

Owyn2 votes

But trust me, it was an entirely different game back then.

actually I don't remember tanks dealing much damage back then. [slayer-jinx-unamused]

Sahn Uzal8 votes

The way I see it, Tanks are not weak persé...

They are very strong and well rounded midgame. They're tanky, they have CC, and they have a decent amount of damage (because Basedamage, Grasp and buffed Sunfirecape)

But lategame, their damage starts falling off and becomming irrelevent because lifesteal. And their defense gets torn to shreds because ADC's will have item 3036 etc. They don't get oneshot like a Rengar could oneshot a Jinx... But you do fee llike all that defense you bought should have some more value. It feels like you're dying way quicker than you should be later on.

This ofcourse balances each other out... But I don't think it should be like that. I'd gladly give up that midgame power if I can feel strong later on again

HateDaddy7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4AVT1Yrz,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-09-05T17:05:28.000+0000)

The way I see it, Tanks are not weak persé...

They are very strong and well rounded midgame. They're tanky, they have CC, and they have a decent amount of damage (because Basedamage, Grasp and buffed Sunfirecape)

But lategame, their damage starts falling off and becomming irrelevent because lifesteal. And their defense gets torn to shreds because ADC's will have item 3036 etc. They don't get oneshot like a Rengar could oneshot a Jinx... But you do fee llike all that defense you bought should have some more value. It feels like you're dying way quicker than you should be later on.

This ofcourse balances each other out... But I don't think it should be like that. I'd gladly give up that midgame power if I can feel strong later on again

It's always been like that honestly. Once ADCs get percentage pen, tanks are easier to kill. And tanks are good late game, hell some of them like Maokai Rammus and Malphite are great but it's not for their durability. It's because of their utility, engage potential or damage/disruption. But I truly believe damage needs to beat out durability at 6 items, because otherwise you just have wet noodle fights like you did during cinderhulk meta and I'd prefer to never go back to that again.

CaptnJakSparrow4 votes

{quoted}

It's always been like that honestly. Once ADCs get percentage pen, tanks are easier to kill. And tanks are good late game, hell some of them like Maokai Rammus and Malphite are great but it's not for their durability. It's because of their utility, engage potential or damage/disruption. But I truly believe damage needs to beat out durability at 6 items, because otherwise you just have wet noodle fights like you did during cinderhulk meta and I'd prefer to never go back to that again.

Nah man.

Let gameplay with bronze have their way.

Then they can experience ATMOG meta where everyone, including the ADC((if you even had one)) went atmogs, and games lasted 60+ minutes because nobody could fucking kill eachother, and minions basically just did all the work as the extremely drawn out 20 minute long fight by baron takes place, and nobody but the supports manage to even die,and that's only because Baron killed them.

This is clearly what's the best game design. I mean, Game play and bronze wills it man!!!

[slayer-jinx-wink]

Sahn Uzal9 votes

It's always been like that honestly.

I mean, yeah. But not nearly as much as it is now.

But I truly believe damage needs to beat out durability at 6 items, because otherwise you just have wet noodle fights like you did during cinderhulk meta and I'd prefer to never go back to that again.

I personally love wet noodle fights. Maybe not as much as the Cinderhulk meta, but I'd definetly like to see things live longer than they do now :p Also, Damage has always beaten durability at 6 items because lifesteal.

HateDaddy6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4AVT1Yrz,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2016-09-05T17:17:44.568+0000)

I mean, yeah. But not nearly as much as it is now.

Honestly, I don't notice much of a difference on natural tanks like Malphite Maokai and Alistar. I definitely do feel it with off tanks/bruisers like Nasus because he has no natural defensive steroids outside of his lifesteal and ult, which isn't much. That's because values on resists have been nerfed while riot has focused more on buffing natural defensive steroids on true tanks so bruisers don't abuse tank items. I think juggernaut like Nasus need better healing tools for teamfights but that's a long way away from happening I suspect.

I personally love wet noodle fights. Maybe not as much as the Cinderhulk meta, but I'd definetly like to see things live longer than they do now :p

I'm fine with drawn out teamfights with kiting/chasing and tanks doing zone control, I'm not fine with both teams tanks killing each other's carries then proceeding to wet noodle each other for the next 4 minutes like we had earlier this season and cinderhulk. It's hilarious that people try to say these were the most balanced times in league. Like, if you weren't playing a tank during these times, the game wasn't fun. I straight up quit league for a month because of this season's tank meta. That shit wasn't fun, you couldn't play anything but a tank in top lane or some bullshit like Fizz Ekko with tank builds. The game just isn't fun when tanks can out damage bruisers and still be way tankier.

Also, Damage has always beaten durability at 6 items because lifesteal.

No, it's because of percentage pen from items like item 3135 item 3036 item 3033 and even item 3071. Lifesteal is reduced significantly by armor, which means ADCs aren't going to typically drain tank anything with a bunch of armor unless they build 2 lifesteal items. At that point, they're sacrificing either a defensive item or crit, both of which are probably way more useful than a lifesteal item. The only exception to this is Graves because he's a fair champion teehee

DaSarcasticGuy5 votes

Actually the end of the cinderhulk meta was pretty good. Not the unkillable nonsense at the start, but the end when tanks were still pretty beefy in the endgame, but killable, squishes were squishy, it was nice, then we had worlds and the preseason.

nice table5 votes

tanks are the weakest they have ever been, whether that makes em balanced or not in your opinion is up to you. the "tanks die in 2 sec" is basically a meme and a major exaggeration at this point but look at it this way: in the previous seasons having no tanks or having a full magic or physical damage team meant a auto lose. right now you can do perfectly fine with 0 tanks and a full ad team.

jaymc11301 votes

{quoted}

tanks are the weakest they have ever been, whether that makes em balanced or not in your opinion is up to you. the "tanks die in 2 sec" is basically a meme and a major exaggeration at this point but look at it this way: in the previous seasons having no tanks or having a full magic or physical damage team meant a auto lose. right now you can do perfectly fine with 0 tanks and a full ad team.

"Tanks are the weakest they have ever been"

And yet the pro teams are mostly swapping over to 3 tank, or even 4 tank comps...

Vladimir Ekko RekSai TahmKench Jhin is such a god damn common team comp in professional play that sports like a combined 15k hp with each having 200 and 150 resists minus the adc... but yah... tanks are totally in the weakest state ever. Totally.

Yah...

Ok.

Right...

nice table2 votes

i like how none of the champions you brought up are tanks though. well maybe you could consider tahm a tank but that's also highly debatable.

jaymc11301 votes

{quoted}

i like how none of the champions you brought up are tanks though. well maybe you could consider tahm a tank but that's also highly debatable.

If you've got 3k+ HP, 200+ armor and 150+ MR, you're a tank. Plain and simple. If you build 3-4 tank items (not including boots), you're a tank.

Does this mean your champ has the functionality of dedicated tank champs? No.

But if you go and build item 3153 item 3091 item 3022 item 3143 item 3026 on Vayne , you're now a tank.

nice table3 votes

i mean thats not even a tank build its a damage heavy bruiser build and there's a reason things are called "bruisers" and "juggernauts" which aren't tanks.

jaymc11301 votes

{quoted}

i mean thats not even a tank build its a damage heavy bruiser build and there's a reason things are called "bruisers" and "juggernauts" which aren't tanks.

Tanks (Durability and utility), bruiser (mobility and damage output), and Juggs (Durability and damage output) are classified as such because of the inherent aspects of their kits.

ANY champion however can be built in ANY style. If you want to play vayne in a tanky style, you can. You can build her tank. She won't have the kit tools (reliable mutli opponent engage, lockdown CC, defensive steroid) a dedicated tank champ would have, but she will indeed be a tank.

nice table3 votes

nah that's not how life works, you can also build ie and pd on a malphite it doesn't make him a marksman though nor does building caitlyn full ap make her a apc.

HateDaddy6 votes

{quoted}

tanks are the weakest they have ever been, whether that makes em balanced or not in your opinion is up to you. the "tanks die in 2 sec" is basically a meme and a major exaggeration at this point but look at it this way: in the previous seasons having no tanks or having a full magic or physical damage team meant a auto lose. right now you can do perfectly fine with 0 tanks and a full ad team.

Tanks were at their worst in season 3 by far

They weren't viable in the jungle or in top lane. That's when riot started nerfing armor values because bruisers were abusing tank items and killing everything with their base damages. And in this same time, riot started buffing individual tank steroids so they would rely less on items, but still scale better with them than any other class. Tanks have not been anything close to that bad since then, season 4 started seeing the rise of tanks again.

jaymc11305 votes

{quoted}

Tanks were at their worst in season 3 by far

They weren't viable in the jungle or in top lane. That's when riot started nerfing armor values because bruisers were abusing tank items and killing everything with their base damages. And in this same time, riot started buffing individual tank steroids so they would rely less on items, but still scale better with them than any other class. Tanks have not been anything close to that bad since then, season 4 started seeing the rise of tanks again.

What was the name of the jungle tank item then? Remember when it had 500 HP, 30 armor, and 10% CDR to go with the jungler sustain passives? I feel like the Spirit line completely warped that season. That and the removal of FoN and the major nerfs to Randuins are what I blame for the massive decrease in front line champ value for team compositions that season.

nice table3 votes

thats a hilarious thing to say considering rammus was the #1 jungler for majority of season 3 and a lot of other tank junglers were also "viable" to say the least.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

thats a hilarious thing to say considering rammus was the #1 jungler for majority of season 3 and a lot of other tank junglers were also "viable" to say the least.

are you drunk

nice table2 votes

feel free to go and check what good junglers were playing back in season 3 if you want, id recommend lolking for this research.

jaymc11304 votes

Remember when Rito toned down TLD just a tiny teeny little bit? And said it was probably in a good state afterwards? And what they really needed to do to encourage use of the other keystones was buff them up to TLD level?

Yeah....

Well done.

Classic Rito, zero common sense decision made despite the outcry from the community on the boards. Par for the course.

Personally, I don't think there is an issue with damage in the mid and late game stages. But early on, my GOD has it become ridiculous. Its not even funny when I can play Evelynn get just the upgraded chilling smite, and then walk into a lane for a gank and deal 600+ damage from a standard ravage>q>TLDproc>aa>smite>q at level 5 with the only AD or AP I have coming from my runes. Thats a 600 some odd damage 1.25 second burst from a champion who basically has no items to speak of at level 5. I have no words for just how wrong that is. But hey, rito put it in, I'ma abuse muh freelo.

Bladerunner77771 votes

Circlejerk detected

Troll for Trump3 votes

Tank stats only matter of you're ahead. If you are behind or even, they don't matter, because people simply out-itemize you. Exception to this is %dmg reduction.

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

Tank stats only matter of you're ahead. If you are behind or even, they don't matter, because people simply out-itemize you. Exception to this is %dmg reduction.

They matter when you're even, they matter even when you're slightly behind. But when someone is snowballing, they shouldn't matter. And as of right now, in most cases they don't if someone is snowballing. As it should be.

Troll for Trump4 votes

When damage carries are behind or even, they still do damage. Just not as much damage as when they're snowballing.

When tanks are behind, they get obliterated just as fast as squishies( except for when they have %dmgreduc) but they also do no dmg. So they're useless. Only thing they have is cc. Even initiation is limited because they will die in <5seconds after the initiation. Not fun.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by HateDaddy

Permaslow passive, point and click harass that can crit, AOE global ult, huge heal + cleanse
Gameplay154 comments
327
votes
Yo roit, now that we have a new SR map that's been updated
Maps & Modes86 comments
322
votes
After 5 years of League, I am calling it quits at the end of the season.
Gameplay333 comments
279
votes
We are almost at season 6 and there are still champs released in season 2 that cost 6300 IP.
Gameplay112 comments
261
votes
Daily reminder that max % HP true damage is loaded with counterplay and counter builds.
Gameplay194 comments
244
votes
I don't understand people on this board
Gameplay183 comments
232
votes