45% bonus armor pen is rather generous don't you think?

JavelinJoe··47 votes·4,594 views

item 3036 item 3033 are both very common items. Found in almost every single game. And their passive 45% bonus armor pen is ridiculously overpowered for such a common, all around good, AND CHEAP!!!, item.

For only 2700 gold you can ignore basically half the enemies armor items, while either applying grievous wounds with every attack or gaining up to 15% bonus AD based on max health difference. Since most ADC's have the smallest health pools in the game, that 15% is fairly easy to acquire. Many items now give health by the shit ton. Even AP focused items give health. But 45% bonus armor pen is insane for facing any sort of tanky opposition. With item 3142 being the global ADC core first item now, that is already 20 flat armor pen to start with, add in item 3156 or item 3147 and you got another 10. How are champions like Nautilus suppose survive with this easy armor pen item. If they engage, they get deleted almost as quickly as their squishies since they have no way to counter that amount of free armor pen except by lowering their attack speed. I am not saying full tanks should beet ADCs 50-50, but they should not die as quickly as one either.

100 Comments

Penns22 votes

Found in almost every single game? Normally only adcs buy it as one of their last 2 items, if at all. Compared to the old Last Whisper, its way worse now imo because its only worth against tanks with a lot of armor.

Lets say youre a level 15 Nautlis with item 3068 item 3025 and item 3075, so 76 base + 215 bonus armor. Against the new Last Whisper you still have 227 armor, against one of the upgrades 194.
With the old Last Whisper you would reduce that to 190 armor + also have armor pen against other squishies.

Ryuyah2 votes

Old Last Whisper was actually 2300 gold and gave 40 AD and 35% Armor Penetration, which is 10 less AD than the current Last Whisper upgrades and was only 100 gold cheaper.

Edit: I never said anything about bonus armor pen

Jonxx10 votes

Except it was 35% of total armor, not bonus armor like now. This makes HUGE difference.

Enloct2 votes

Edit: Apparently I missed this change. Riot changed the way pen works again.

morris16 votes

What are you talking about? It's called bonus armor penetration because it affects bonus armor instead of total armor. And no, it stacks multiplicatively too.

Shinirup2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moraru Maurice,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4AAWUgiv,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-10T17:34:08.039+0000)

What are you talking about? It's called bonus armor penetration because it affects bonus armor instead of total armor. And no, it stacks multiplicatively too.

Wow I am silly...I've been playing since season 1 and always mistakenly took "Bonus armor pen" as meaning "Adds an extra X% armor pen on top of whatever armor pen you already have (being bonus to you)". But still affecting all armor. Rather than "Pen that affects bonus armor rather than total."...In my defence, I main mages...but still lol...I should have realized that.

So thank you, for enlightening me.

Penns6 votes

Really? I forgot old Last Whispers exact stats and cost so I just believed https://i.gyazo.com/85f4b9ea791ad82f0e68025048541794.png (saw the icon and didnt read anything other than its cost lol). Edited, but my point is still the same.

If it was 2300, it was 400 gold cheaper than the upgrades now tho, which is worth about 11 AD.

GayFluffyUnicorn5 votes

See one thing you forget is: 15% extra dmg against higher health targets. Since Rylais, ROA and other health items are way more common it not only neglects armor but also gives more dmg against those targets and 15% is HUGE and it is not uncommon for brand, vlad, ryze and several other champs to have minimum 1k mroe health than adcs

Penns3 votes

Well not every mid laner gets these items and the difference between those 15% more damage and the old 35% armor pen is pretty smalll, with just base armor its basically the same.

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

Not really. We have fervor, more crit in the game, more AS than ever, BC shred in every game all on top of 15% extra physical dmg.

DunkinNoobs9 votes

It's worse than the old LW until over 400 armor. And old LW only cost 2300.

HaloDragonX2 votes

45% bonus armor pen does more to tanks than 30% total armor pen does.

GULAG 4 U2 votes

no because most tanks have 90+ base armor combined with masteries and other shit total armor (35 not 30) is always better in almost any case.

Raidarc2 votes

I don't think runes count as your base armor. When you mouse-over your armor at level 1, it still shows what you've added. Don't quote me on this, I'm not 100% sure but it definitely doesn't sound right.

Your base armor should only be that of your character's base plus it's growth rate. Or at least that's how I've always thought of it.

GULAG 4 U3 votes

Imost tanks have 90+ armor and adcs have 76.

Anyways, old LW is objectively better. It's good against everything, new LW is only good vs tanks and bruisers.

agbudar7 votes

item 3158 item 3071 item 3142 item 3033 on Lucian good luck trying to survive if he gets peeled properly

JavelinJoe2 votes

Forgot item 3147 and item 3156. Plus he can self peal with his E.

Ahristocats3 votes

and he doesn't need boot, with BC,Duskblade,youmu and W.

GULAG 4 U2 votes

Except he has no reliable attack speed so no dps and even with arpen he can't burst a tnak?

agbudar1 votes

ehm lucian doesnt really need attack speed with 40% cdr if you do your rotation right you will be proccing your passive for the entire team fight E>AA>Q>AA>W>AA>E>AA>Q>AA ult

then start over you should be able to have killed 2 squishies at LEAST

i recently picked him up and he is an AD caster marksman not an AA marksman

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Then your damage would be gated by cds, and that's still very shitty dps compared to the actual adc builds. Not saying the build isn't fuking annoying.

agbudar1 votes

another decent build could be item 3508 item 3031 item 3158 item 3153item 3094 item 3033 and bork is mainly there for some extra attack speed a good active and the passive from botrk works well with your passive onhit this way you have armor pen crit attack speed and the good juice you want. its just a prefference

and in my own experience rushingitem 3071 is overall really strong because of the synergy with your kit.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

I'd say drop the cdr boots for greaves and ruined king for cleaver, but yeah at 6 items adcs do shred thru tanks. The thing is tanks are extremely powerful early (Not ultra early {pre-6 b4 1st back}) and are very strong mid but then to fall off late. ATm tanks are not bad, it's not that arpen is broken (ghostblade is. Idk about duskblade {not really good imo} but adcs {ppl who shouldn't build it} are doing it soooo....) but more that tanks are falling off too hard.

agbudar1 votes

thats why i prefer item 3071 as a rush item it allows you as an adc especially as lucian to get rid of a significant amount of armor when it matters and get yourself ahead of the tank easily with a semi decent support.

and because champions like lucians basically peel themselves once they are ahead they become this one man army

hence black cleaver is one of the best items imo to start with

i usually forgo item 1055 and startitem 1036 item 2031 and rush item 3044 which is a great early game item for an adc

GULAG 4 U1 votes

I hate playing adc so Idk, I guess that's fine. I'm still suspicious if you will have enough dps.

agbudar1 votes

ive been pretty succesfull rushing black cleaver over item 3142. for 10 ad less and minus the active you get more health more cdr and a stronger armor pen if you do you rotation right.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

I think ghostblade is the better rush since the item gives you attack speed, but that's just my opitino.

agbudar1 votes

yea honestly its really up to the player. both work for different reasons but i found that the passive of item 3071 combined with the added cdr and health outweigh the 10 extra ad andactive from item 3142

Frius7 votes

35% total armor > 45% bonus armor anl penetration

JustMyBassCannon4 votes

This is basically mathematically true in all League circumstances, because you would need more than 78% of your armor to be Bonus Armor before 45% of bonus Armor would be equal to or greater than 35% of total Armor.

For every point of base Armor, you'd need >3.5 points of bonus Armor. Base Armor ranges from 16-31 at level 1, and goes up to 65-104 on most champions.

So, literally the only champion on whom Last Whisper is more effective is Thresh, who always has a base 16 Armor. And I think that's a meaningful weakness for him.

Frikgeek6 votes

If you assume a standard 90-ish base armour at 18 your target would need to have 225 bonus armour(315 total armour) for 45% bonus arpen to be equal than the 35% total arpen from the old LW and 180 bonus(270 total) for it to be equal to the current BC at max stacks.

So... no, unless their team has multiple super armour stackers that get like 300 armour a BC is better assuming you can stack it. ADCs will get one of the LW upgrades because it's not as easy to stack BC and it provides useless stats for standard autoattack carries with low spell damage.

If anything tanks are much better off now than they were with old LW in the game, on average they get to live slightly longer now.

JavelinJoe4 votes

But there was not as much flat pen as there is now too. So that is also a factor. And ADC's can get both items.

Frikgeek5 votes

But they don't. Because stacking % total pen with %bonus pen isn't the best idea. And there was about as much flat pen in the game as there is now, in fact black cleaver used to give flat pen IN ADDITION to the % shred. Not that flat pen is all that important when talking about 250+ armour tanks.

Old LW was cheaper(only 2300g) and in almost all situations better than the current LW upgrades.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

{quoted}

But there was not as much flat pen as there is now too. So that is also a factor. And ADC's can get both items.

Lol if ADCs are stacking flat pen, they don't have crit. There's a reason why that build falls off hard. Tanks don't die late unless you can crit.

hhaavviikk5 votes

the item exists as a fix to the power of armor, ever tried fighting tanks while having no % armor pen? they shit all over you, you are basically forced to buy % armor pen otherwise they kill you.

Darth Valer5 votes

The thing with damage and tankiness is as follows. In the early to mid-game defensive stats are stronger than offensive stats. item 1031 >> item 1037 . Autoattack carries, in particular, are heavily outstatted. They are weak to tanks and bruiser until they complete item 3031 item 3085 (or their optimal zeal item). Buying item 3036 before that item threshold is worthless 'cause you multiply nonexistent damage. A carry with item 3031 item 3085 item 3036 will whittle down a tank in seconds, but can still be outbursted or outsustained by their combo. After said carry gets item 3072 , tanks can't do anything, and rightfully so. They can only hope to lock the ADC down and hope their own damage dealers (Assassins, Fighters or Mages) can erase him from the fight before he can return to a safe position to deal damage.

item 3036 seems a bit over the top, and perhaps the last buffs should be reverted (40% bonus ArPen -> 45%; 40 AD -> 50), but it's got a specific game function and needs to exist in its form, number tweaking aside.

Veltox1 votes

Why items that make almost an entire class not do their job properly should exist by your logic?

morris12 votes

Because ADCs with traditional crit build are worthless until they have at least 2 items.

Sylvant5 votes

dont forget this item has a limited effect, it only applies on champions that actually buy armor and would only be more effective on champs that actually stack alot of it, or if the one using it stacks additional penetration, but then he gimps his others stats even more.

Sohleks5 votes

Not as good as 35% of all armor it used to be.

One direction is to nerf tank items and the % pen items.

But the whole point is that tanks dominate the mid game and carries take the late game. However a change to smooth this out could happen. What if it was purely performance based and tank rich enough had his own late game fantasy.

The team approach probably feels better though.

Netherlife4 votes

Yet aside from myself, hardly anyone gets it. They just go for flat pen and Black Cleaver. It's stupid, but I won't complain. I like getting Mortal Reminder 3rd item on my Wukong and destroying entire teams before they realize it's too late to build armor. [slayer-jinx-wink]

JavelinJoe2 votes

Exactly, and with all the other armor pen options in one build, you get massive amounts.

Bladerunner77774 votes

BONUS armor pen

edit: this is such an uninformed rant

CerealBoxOfDoom3 votes

{quoted}

but they should not die as quickly as one either.

and exactly how long should they last.

How long do they need?

Its not the tank's job to survive so how long does a tank need to do what they actually need to

Raidarc2 votes

The biggest reason that armor pen needs to be nerfed that isn't mentioned is the fact that you're not only facing AD.

You can't just stack armor because then the mages will wreck you.

I don't even think you can nerf the item 3035 and it's upgrades because once you do everyone will just buy the 30% armor pen item you get that also gives you 20% CDR, kiting ability, 50 AD and 300 health. item 3071 is just as out of balance.

If anything they should buff Randuin's Omen to reduce attack speed by more than 15% considering all it takes it Berserker's Greaves to negate that.

The only good tank is a snowballed one. If you fall behind at all, you're screwed.

Mandang01 votes

If only a stat worked well against both physical and magic damage.... Hmm....item 1028

It'd be even better if you could reduce autoattack damage in a way that LW doesn't counter...item 3047 item 3082 item 3143

Raidarc2 votes

Because 1k crits are unheard of. Too bad they don't attack at the rate of 1.5-2 attacks per second.....Oh wait.

Mandang01 votes

Tanks are supposed to die lategame. That's just risk/reward. If everyone could scale lategame while building defense, no one would risk building glass and actually getting punished for positional errors midgame.

1k crit is unheard of outside of special mechanics that don't happen at 1.5-2 attacks per second. With IE, attacks do 2.5x damage, so you'd need 400 AD... if you did true damage. If tanks have 100 armor after penetration (which they should at that point), then the crit only does 1k damage if the ADC has 800 AD... so NEVER. You're cherry-picking mechanics like Cait's headshot and silver bolts.

Raidarc1 votes

The purpose of tanks is not to die instantly, they are supposed to soak damage if building full tank. There is zero reason an ADC should be able to kill you in 2 seconds with 300+ armor.

Akali is SO HOT2 votes

The item is almost useless against squishy targets that don't build armor and old last whisper was way better against tanks. The current last whisper upgrades only become better around 400 armor for most tanks

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