So AD champions are allowed to have a good spellvamp option

The Bearded Bard·Oct 30, 2015·81 votes·4,709 views

But AP champs aren't? What the actual fuck.

94 Comments

BleedissOct 30, 201551 votes

love how this has upvotes

shows g&b is so ignorant of how spellvamp can't be buffed just because vladimir exists

ZarkkastOct 30, 20154 votes

Give it mana and mana regeneration.

Nerf Morgana and Swain accordingly.

RyzeReworkOct 30, 20154 votes

{quoted}

love how this has upvotes

shows g&b is so ignorant of how spellvamp can't be buffed just because vladimir exists

It can't be buffed because it would be actually too strong champions with built in sustain plus champions that lack sustain for a reason would become too strong marksman deserve lifesteal

Big LincolnOct 30, 201518 votes

marksman and ad casters don't deserve spellvamp

marksman don't deserve lifesteal on every other item either

Ignis0Oct 30, 20153 votes

Without life steal team fights would drop to 4v4s the second someone engaged. Or adcs just wouldnt be played at all

Big LincolnOct 30, 201518 votes

they already have lifesteal items, they don't need more

giving them access to double or possibly triple lifesteal on top of everything else they're getting is too much

Auz the RipperOct 30, 20152 votes

Well, at least EXE's caller is coming back, And it applies on any physical damage now!

WarlockLawOct 30, 20155 votes

It applying to every auto was the reason it got removed in the first place... That much power in healing reduction is so strong that the item needs to be fairly inefficient or Vlad/Swain/Mundo can't be played ever.

Auz the RipperOct 30, 20151 votes

Yeah, that's true And the upgrade to it, Mortal Reminder, might as well just have the description: "No one should ever play Mundo again"

Ariel the CruelOct 31, 20151 votes

item 3070 Soraka

FiniteParadox22Oct 30, 20152 votes

Everyone always forgets about my favorite Ursine, Volibear. He will be so very difficult to do anything with whatsoever once grievous wounds becomes a common place.

BluePolarizerOct 30, 20154 votes

bullshit. Even if no lifesteal or crit existed, ADCs absolutely must be played because they are the only class that can afford to build full damage and not get evaporated in fights.

Lazypeon100Oct 30, 20151 votes

And you think they still wouldn't be evaporated without those tools o.o? What would stop someone from building a thornmail, countering the entire class with no way to build against it?

BluePolarizerOct 30, 20154 votes

you counter thornmail with MR and lifesteal that coincidentally every ADC buys.

Don't like counterbuilding? Tough shit because you can't seem to deal with problems that you have already been given the solution to. What about the problem of melees being trash late game that is NOT fixable by counterbuilding?

ADC is THE #1 class. Every meta is an ADC meta. Every class is defined by how it interacts with the ADC on your team or the enemy team.

Lazypeon100Oct 30, 20151 votes

MR helps, but let's say you build MR. What are you giving up in return? You give up your damage, which is the only thing the class is good for. I specifically asked about your given scenario of no lofe steal / crit existing.

You think delaying their builds, with no crit or life steal and to get MR instead would be a viable option? That they would still be mandatory?

Also melees aren't all trash late game. Some are, sure. That happens with some champs because of their design. But saying all melees are trash late game is just wrong.

BluePolarizerOct 30, 20154 votes

there are plenty of MR options that also grant damage. item 3139 item 3156 . If you don't want to counterbuild and the enemy has invested an entire item slot and 2200 gold into countering you, then I don't see why you shouldn't be countered. Now ask - why isn't there an AD/armor item for melees???

ADCs have plenty of lifesteal options. In fact they are the only class that actually uses lifesteal effectively in combat. Riven, Yi, Zed, etc. never get to lifesteal anywhere near as much as ADCs do.

Lazypeon100Oct 30, 20151 votes

Again, this was specifically in response to the idea of no life steal or crit existing for adcs. I'm not saying there aren't ways to currently counter thornmail (the item mostly sucks now anyway) but this again, purely based off of what you said.

In this suggestion, what would replace life steal and crit? Crit is very important to every adc excluding kalista / kindred. So is lifesteal. How would IE or BT work? Are they just removed, changed, etc?

BluePolarizerOct 30, 20152 votes

I thought the topic of this thread was spellvamp for ADCs being unnecessary. I never mentioned crit and neither did any of the above posts. ADC itemization is already extremely strong numerically; the only problem is that it is very rigid and doesn't provide much dueling power against bruisers until full build. The changes make them stronger numerically and better duelists when not full build. This is a problem because bruisers and assassins literally only have their dueling going for them. When they can't duel the ADC, they are useless. What the fk is an assassin picked for if they can't do shit to the enemy ADC?

VekknaOct 30, 20155 votes

You mean like Zed, Talon, Riven, Fiora, Yi, Trynd, Olaf, Darius, Xin, Nocturne, Lee, Mundo, and every other annoying fighter/bruiser in the game?

You can't possibly believe that Death's Dance and Maw aren't going to bee too strong on the bruisers I mentioned who already have strong built-in sustain (increased by building devourer).

And you can't possibly believe that they won't give the assassins with no sustain far too much sustain. Death's Dance effectively makes AD assassins immune to poke. Yi healing during Qs while untargetable. Zed healing during ulti combos while untargetable and bouncing around the map. Talon healing while invisible. It's seriously the worst idea I've ever seen, and your excuse for why AP champs get the shaft is laughable when the problem is already far worse on the AD side.

RyzeReworkOct 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You mean like Zed, Talon, Riven, Fiora, Yi, Trynd, Olaf, Darius, Xin, Nocturne, Lee, Mundo, and every other annoying fighter/bruiser in the game?

You can't possibly believe that Death's Dance and Maw aren't going to bee too strong on the bruisers I mentioned who already have strong built-in sustain (increased by building devourer).

And you can't possibly believe that they won't give the assassins with no sustain far too much sustain. Death's Dance effectively makes AD assassins immune to poke. Yi healing during Qs while untargetable. Zed healing during ulti combos while untargetable and bouncing around the map. Talon healing while invisible. It's seriously the worst idea I've ever seen, and your excuse for why AP champs get the shaft is laughable when the problem is already far worse on the AD side.

Why don't u build spellvamp on LeBlanc? She does tons of damage idk maybe because assassin's are squishy and almost 1 crit from death. I didn't say assassin's aren't ganna be buffed by the new item changes but poke never destroyed the assassin gameplay anyway assassin's are strong against poke champions but weak against tanks cc and sustained damage that's just how it goes

VekknaOct 30, 20154 votes

You don't build spellvamp on Leblanc because spellvamp sucks and only exists on items that either suck or have wasted stats. If any spellvamp item gave you lots of free aoe damage, a big shield, or a mini Poppy passive, you can be sure that Leblanc would be building it.

You build lifesteal (and now physical vamp) because the items are just better. They have extremely useful effects aside from just healing, like % hp on hit, cleave damage, cleave burst, a shield, staggered burst damage, etc. On top of that, lifesteal is fucking everywhere. Now from masteries to your starting item to components to completed items, and procs, you can stack the everloving shit out of lifesteal without even intending to just by getting items you want for their other strengths.

Vamp items do nothing but vamp. Apples to apples here, the AP equivalent of lifesteal items would be spellvamp on Liandry's, Seraph's, Morello, and Rylai's. Just as a bonus on top of the %hp damage, shield, debuff, and slow.

Plus, there are tons of mage abilities that are tagged as aoe regardless of how many enemies it actually hits or if it's even capable of hitting multiple enemies. For example, Kat's Q. You use it on an isolated enemy and it doesn't bounce. Too bad it's still tagged as aoe and your 15% vamp is only 5% vamp.

RyzeReworkOct 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You don't build spellvamp on Leblanc because spellvamp sucks and only exists on items that either suck or have wasted stats. If any spellvamp item gave you lots of free aoe damage, a big shield, or a mini Poppy passive, you can be sure that Leblanc would be building it.

You build lifesteal (and now physical vamp) because the items are just better. They have extremely useful effects aside from just healing, like % hp on hit, cleave damage, cleave burst, a shield, staggered burst damage, etc. On top of that, lifesteal is fucking everywhere. Now from masteries to your starting item to components to completed items, and procs, you can stack the everloving shit out of lifesteal without even intending to just by getting items you want for their other strengths.

Vamp items do nothing but vamp. Apples to apples here, the AP equivalent of lifesteal items would be spellvamp on Liandry's, Seraph's, Morello, and Rylai's. Just as a bonus on top of the %hp damage, shield, debuff, and slow.

Plus, there are tons of mage abilities that are tagged as aoe regardless of how many enemies it actually hits or if it's even capable of hitting multiple enemies. For example, Kat's Q. You use it on an isolated enemy and it doesn't bounce. Too bad it's still tagged as aoe and your 15% vamp is only 5% vamp.

So champions like clad are weak because they have to first buy spell vamp? Swain and ryze don't build spell vamp because it's weak? That's a bunch of bull mages don't need spell vamp there's no reason for someone to cry that mages don't have good life steal options when there items are based on utility ad champions don't have 2.5 seconds of taking no damnage and stopping all skill damnage, mages have slows burns even an item that gives them extra ap based on how much extra ap they have. Mages have items that give magic resistance debuffs. When I say all the things mages have that marksman don't have it sounds pretty broken right?

OperationDEEZ1Oct 30, 20152 votes

this. have a cookie. http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-94XK-zMZLFI/Tk5ekLtwDgI/AAAAAAAADs4/dEjtNbQsvXc/s400/Cookie.gif

NinjaToad99Oct 30, 20152 votes

Notice how it's just "Gameplay" now, instead of "Gameplay and Balance".

Critmaster GarenOct 30, 201532 votes

thank these guys.

Vladimir Ahri Akali Morgana Swain

problem with giving mages spellvamp items that are good enough for a certain level of sustain is, that it absolutely pushes those dudes over the top.

meanwhile the few ad casters that have sustain in their kit have it either scaling with ad or health. so Darius would get more out of building another health item than spellvamp for sustain.

the other reason is, that most ad casters are melee, so spellvamp for them creates a much less passive playstile.

i assume you havent ben around when spellvamp was a thing in this game, and morgana went mid just to constantly and passively push the lane with her w.

The Bearded BardOct 30, 20158 votes

Make it unique, nerf vlad accordingly. None of those champions even build spellvamp right now aside from Vlad and Akali.

Actually you wouldn't even need to nerf Vlad considering there's now morellos and whatever the AD grievous wounds item is now.

Critmaster GarenOct 30, 201512 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Maokai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=40yAGetl,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-10-30T06:42:01.561+0000)

Make it unique, nerf vlad accordingly. None of those champions even build spellvamp right now aside from Vlad and Akali.

exactly. no one else is building it but them, because it has so little effect that its only useful on them.

if youd buff it to be useful on everyone else, these guys would be ridiculous. weve already been there. if you nerf vlad and other champions around potentially building an item, youre making them dependent on it. meaning you narrow down their build options.

basically what happened with champions like Fiddlesticks and item 3157

item 3157 is cancer in my opinion. not just because its used to cheese certain abilities out of counterplay, but also because champions that use the cheese are nerfed around the item so far that they cant live without it anymore. its game warping.

KaisadiIIaOct 30, 20154 votes

Without Zhonya's mages wouldn't be able to go mid anymore. Zhonya's is mandatory when you face any assassin in lane (even LeBlanc) to put the lane even for both players. Without it, no matter how much better you play with your mage, Zed would still wreck you in lane once he had built some damage.

Zhonya's is not a bad design, it's the answer to a fundamental flaw in the game that no one has be able to figure out how to address for years.

flibitydooOct 31, 20151 votes

Zhonyas doesn't even the playing field though

if you are behind, and you zhonyas, usually you come out of it and immediately die afterwards.

It works best when you are ahead, and that is why it's frustrating. When Diana towerdives you and is about to die to the tower shots, and then she zhonyas and then the tower switches aggro to minions, that's frustrating, that is zhonyas seeing use. When swain or kennen push r and walk into a group of enemies and hit zhonyas, if they're behind massively, then it doesn't matter, they come out of it and die. It's only if they are fed enough, that the aoe of their ults will ravage the enemy team.

While it doesn't exactly even out the laning phase, it can even out teamfights. If you are caught out, and you zhonyas to prevent death at the hands of the whole enemy team, your team can pick it up and destroy the enemy team (or otherwise secure the area around you) while you come out alive. Of course this depends on your team being strong enough to contest ground (which again, makes it less of an equalizer). If your team isn't strong enough (or they choose not to, which is unfortunately common in soloQ), then you come out surrounded by multiple enemy champions and die.

Zhonyas is not a "build this and you're back in the game" item. A lot of mages don't build this item, and many opt into it as a 3rd (or later) item.

KONO RUBICK DAOct 30, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Maokai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=40yAGetl,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-10-30T06:42:01.561+0000)

Make it unique, nerf vlad accordingly. None of those champions even build spellvamp right now aside from Vlad and Akali.

Actually you wouldn't even need to nerf Vlad considering there's now morellos and whatever the AD grievous wounds item is now.

it is not only vlad, did you played in s2? hextech revolver was giving 20% spell vamp they nerfed it and made it unique

was still broken because manaless champs: vlad rumble kennen akali were so broken in s2 and had so much sustain so, it was nerfed

VG Elder NightOct 31, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Maokai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=40yAGetl,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-10-30T06:42:01.561+0000)

Make it unique, nerf vlad accordingly. None of those champions even build spellvamp right now aside from Vlad and Akali.

Actually you wouldn't even need to nerf Vlad considering there's now morellos and whatever the AD grievous wounds item is now.

But they do build it when spellvamp is stroonk

JacknifeOct 30, 20152 votes

Wasn't that the case in season 2 where all mages were running spellvamp and pretty much ran the game, that group especially (and Ryze )?

Critmaster GarenOct 30, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Wasn't that the case in season 2 where all mages were running spellvamp and pretty much ran the game, that group especially (and )?

i dont know if it was season 2 or earlier. i know when i joined this game 2010 spellvamp existed. and later it had to be nerfed because of them.

because they didnt do large scale champion reworks at that time and only used bandaid buffs and nerfs to try and balance the game.

KaisadiIIaOct 30, 20152 votes

I play Morgana mid and I can tell Morgana can still push the lane passively with her W with a nice amount of sustain.

Cottontail LuxOct 30, 201516 votes

But Graves cant have a cigar

The Bearded BardOct 30, 20158 votes

Fuck graves and fuck every ad champion in this game.

Chaotic ReksOct 30, 20158 votes

Draven item 3070

63536895_DELOct 30, 20156 votes

PSA: You can already get 10% "spellvamp"(pretty much what it is) on AD champs from an Elixir, and its healing stays at 10% even if you're not using a single target ability. For some reason most players completely forget about Elixirs or refuse to acknowledge they exist. Don't know why, they're actually really powerful.

RivvyOct 30, 20155 votes

So you're saying Veigar should get a full heal from ult.

Zair UmbrasOct 31, 20151 votes

Well, they could do to Veigar's R what they did to Morde's Q where it heals as if it was an AoE when it obviously isn't. Morde's Q seriously only heals for 5% with a WotA and about 7% with a Gunblade, hence why you'll never see either of those items on the new Morde. lol.

AutoreactiveCD4Oct 30, 20154 votes

I'm so jaded I thought there would be something about a cigar in here.

But agreed. I really hope ADC's aren't going to be lifesteal tanks with all that's going on. Also I see crit being put on a lot more items too. All these new crit and lifesteel options may feed into eachother a bit too well.

Won't give a final verdict until I see of it all turns out.

Sythriel DrakenOct 30, 20154 votes

and graves still can't have a cigar...

fééd l0rdOct 30, 20153 votes

The problem is not only Vladimir.

I played a lot of Diana on my main and she would be absolutly broken with a valid spellvamp option. I carried games 4v5 with her because of her burst and her big shield. With CDR and spellvamp she would not die in fights and still would deal tons of damage - simply unfair.

The thing about mages is that they are supposed to use their spells and then get out, wait for the cooldowns and do the same. AD champions have to stay in the fight and use AA's and spells whenever they can.

YumaS2AstralOct 30, 20153 votes

{quoted}

The problem is not only Vladimir.

I played a lot of Diana on my main and she would be absolutly broken with a valid spellvamp option. I carried games 4v5 with her because of her burst and her big shield. With CDR and spellvamp she would not die in fights and still would deal tons of damage - simply unfair.

The thing about mages is that they are supposed to use their spells and then get out, wait for the cooldowns and do the same. AD champions have to stay in the fight and use AA's and spells whenever they can.

She would be essentially an AP Riven.

Riven is currently unbearable mid-late game because not only her shield scales with AD, but she has lifesteal to back it up, so once she has some lifesteal items, she is unduelable.

People defend that Diana also has a shield scaling with her main offensive stat, but they forget that Diana can't heal herself to back up that shield. If you don't damage Diana through her shield, the damage will stick to her.

Only Play DariusOct 30, 20153 votes

Well from what I have heard there are some champs that abuse spellvamp much harder when it is actually an efficient stat.

Vladimir Akali Mordekaiser

ZantumallOct 30, 20153 votes

You know they're also making WotA 200g cheaper, right?

Maximum ZileanOct 30, 20152 votes

The second there is any decent spell vamp item.

Vladimir becomes broken. And because of how his kit works, its impossible to just "Nerf his numbers" to balance it out. He has proven to be extremely problematic whenever a good spell vamp item was made. And he will continue to do so until they can figure out a way to fix his issues.

There are OTHER champions who abuse the stat when there is a good item for it, but Vlad is the biggest offender.

MunchCrunchLunchOct 30, 20151 votes

well. most AP champs shoot at you from a distance so if you hit from a distance and yet have defense that would be ridiculous. and its all in the build. most AP champs are glass cannon. a lot of damage and not a lot of defense. you can get defense but you will get regular damage just like the most of us

The Bearded BardOct 31, 20152 votes

You realize literally every ranged adc hits from a distance and they all build lifesteal, right? They're also 100% glass cannon and even the lowest damage ADC will outdamage the highest damage mage, right?

I agree with you 100%. Positions that offer great damage at a long range shouldn't have many defensive options.

DarthSpectrumOct 31, 20151 votes

I'm sure this has already been mentioned, but spellvamp is not allowed to be good on mages because of Vladimir Akali and Swain .

At least with Life steal, champions regain their health in rapid small increments. As well, most AD casters only do 1/2 to 2/3 of the damage compared to their AP counterparts in one rotation of their abilities. AD Casters are assumed to use their AAs in their combos to make up for the difference in damage.

However, because most AP champions deal burst damage, if spellvamp is efficient on them they will literally regain more than half their HP bar in one well placed AOE from 700 units away.

Not to mention that Akali, Vladimir, and Swain would literally become invincible demons on the rift, leeching over 100% of their damage.