@Riot While you work on Riven's animation canceling, could you take a look at her CLARITY?

Zero Skill Tank·May 3, 2017·29 votes·2,488 views

It doesn't take a game design genius to know that when most of the animations get canceled all the time, it becomes hard to tell what is actually going on.

IMO, lack of clarity is one of the biggest reason for common Riven-hate. It just takes so much effort to learn to judge how much damage can she do in a given scenario, because half-assed combo and a perfect combo often look very similar, so often you are caught thinking "wait, that Riven from a game ago did like half this damage with the same move, wtf?".

47 Comments

JoxcabMay 3, 20176 votes

"half-assed combo and a perfect combo often look very similar"

Yeah, planet Earth and planet Jupiter looks really similar too, if you ignore all the un-similar parts.

Mira Arya EntheMay 3, 20176 votes

Yeah it would be really helpful if her effects had more clarity. One of the biggest thing is weaving basic attacks(most of the other cancels are fairly clear). If it was possible to code it would be cool if Riot could code it so that her basic attacks woven in had their own special animation or something.

But to give you a little more clarity here and now take a look at League of Slowmotion's video about Riven.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hsfz_yMzPiA

As well as this here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iWsilFJOjc

JoxcabMay 3, 20173 votes

Putting a special animation to autoattacks wouldn't mean anything since they'd be canceled anyways.

Mira Arya EntheMay 3, 20175 votes

What I mean, is so that when you do a woven combo it specifically has coded in a special overlapping animation. It may not be possible to code but it is just one idea.

Glory97May 3, 20175 votes

If search at youtube for animation canceling guides for riven you can find a lot of stuff. And if you take a look at the different riven combos, i think its not that hard to get a grasp of what she can do. I don't think if riot explains all that to you it would be easier to understand, than what you can learn about riven on youtube.

And i don't really think that clarity will help that much. Look at yasuo. Everyone knows that he can dash through minions a million times and that he has a windwall that can block everything, and still he is even more hated than riven.

Best Darius KRMay 3, 20174 votes

If I had to watch a guide for each champion just to know that one of his abilities stuns or slows, I would've quit this game ages ago. I think what he is saying is, contrary to a case like (idk) Taric, where you immediately know what his E does after getting hit by it, a well learned and played Riven is just an absolute clusterfuck of abilities from the point of view of the player receiving the pain. You don't know if her W stuns, if it's a combination of abilities, or even HOW MANY ABILITIES she has, since her Q can be used multiple times.

You shouldn't be forced to watch a 10-minute guide to know what she does. Reading the tooltips should be enough, but in this case, the tooltips don't mention one of the biggest parts of her kit: animation canceling.

Mira Arya EntheMay 3, 20176 votes

This is where I feel we are crossing the line from gameplay experience to gameplay philosophy.

I never read a Riven tooltip in my life. I know what her abilities did from when they hit me. Most people could tell "Circly explosion = stun, third leap landing = knockup."

As for animation canceling it exists on all champions to some level, some more than others. It has just been made a feature on Riven. Learning parts of a game like animation canceling is part of learning the game. Just like learning in a fighting game which combos go off in what number of frames to overwrite enemy combos. If you don't want to learn the game to that depth(which isn't even needed in Riven's case, some basic counter knowledge is usually enough) you won't climb, just as if you don't want to learn how stutter stepping works or ability buffering. They are mechanics of the game. It is your choice and your ELO to learn them.

Me I learn about the game for fun, I don't care for climbing. But other than AA weaving everything Riven did was pretty apparent from fighting her. AA weaving could use clarity.

Best Darius KRMay 3, 20172 votes

I never read a Riven tooltip in my life. I know what her abilities did from when they hit me. Most people could tell "Circly explosion = stun, third leap landing = knockup."

Sure, I can see that.

I have also never read a Riven tooltip in my life, but I only learned that she hasn't got 12 different abilities the moment I tried to play her, and in my honest opinion that isn't right.

"12 abilities?" Yes, you have to admit an Ult-Q combo looks very different from a "third leap landing".

I'm pretty sure this wasn't even what OP was originally saying anyway, but in my opinion, it is way too hard to know what her abilities do from the point of view of a player that is new to the concept of animation canceling.

Mira Arya EntheMay 3, 20175 votes

I know very few people who cannot tell which skills she is using. The big thing is combining Tiamat with W gets ride of too much W animation but until she buys it, it is clear. And her E+R1 is a little unclear but mostly makes people think R1 has no cast animation. The only hugely unclear thing would be AA weaving which is on any combo champion(for example Jayce, Jax and Renekton who are good slip in some 'invisible AAs)

I 100% agree she needs some clarity. But the assumption that you need not understand the games mechanics is what I have a problem with.

Troll for TrumpMay 4, 20171 votes

You can tell what she's doing, you just usually can't do anything to stop it, because most champs don't have that level of animation cancelling.

You mentioned overriding frames in fighting games.

Fighting riven is very similar to a fighting game (most skirmishers are)

Most champs can't override frames.

The only way to reliably do it is with hard cc, which is annoying, because not everyone always has that

Mira Arya EntheMay 4, 20174 votes

Okay. Here is what you have implied across this post amd the last Riven post you commented on so far.

Riven bursts harder than an assassin. Riven has no counters when played correctly. There is no answer to Riven's gameplay for her enemies. No champion is more mobile. She is a lane bully who scales into late game. Yet she is weak right now somehow? Even though statistics don't back that up.

How the fuck then is ANY other champion picked? Camille and Lee Sin meeting half those qualifications became pick/ban in LCS and SoloQ for months.

Why the fuck don't all pro teams have a couple people dedicated to just mastering Riven for the times they could pick her before the enemies?

Why is she the rank 35th top laner and hasn't had overbearing statistics since S4?

Why are several skimishers(her class) picked over her in top lane and why isn't she picked in jungle/mid like when she was overtuned in S3?

Why do all statistics and matchup data show her losing a majority of lane matchups while only bullying a select few?

I will tell you why. Because you are full of shit. You are part of the old'school dying circlejerk that used loose gameplay philosophies and a shit ton of exaggerations to make complaining about a champion about vague ideals rather than actual design talk and use of statistics.

You use arguments like everyone else. Vague ideals but no hard data. "A more skilled Riven can cover her weaknesses." so like any damn champion? A skilled Darius can cover the weakness of his Q channel time and inner circle through skills. A skilled Shyvana can cover her weakness to Kiting and poke through positioning, strategic use of her ult and buying a BotRK. A skilled Jhin can cover the weakness of his reload through positioning and weaving abilities in.

"Riven bursts harder than an assassin." Most champions who aren't tanks or supports can kill an ADC in 1-3 seconds depending on how fed they are. As shown on Shyvana in my clip 2.2s with my shitty mechanics and tanky build. Assassins aren't defined by damage alone, many classes from mages to fighters can burst.

"Riven has no counters when played correctly." Don't tell that to The Shy, Adrian, Boxbox, Viper, Best Riven NA or even Faker when he played her. If the best can't overwhelm all counters nobody can. If you mean in general them general statistics counter that. Otherwise she'd be P/B in lcs if she had no counters.

"Mechanical skill can carry Riven with shitty game knowledge!" True, like any champion who isn't a hyper binary stat check(and even them to an extent) being better at the champion will let you climb, just like being better at map awareness, CS, teamplay, team fighting and general strategy and game knowledge. It is one of many assets that will boost your performance. The difference between Riven and Shyvana is that it is required for Riven to have some mechanical skills to succeed, Shyvana can get by without it.

You are pepetuating an ancient circlejerk that was once valid in the old design of LoL when Riven was drastically overtuned and most champions didn't have strong utilities and tools. Reworks and new releases, itemization changes and even a map rework. This is not that game. Riven's only big issues are lack of visual clarity, excessive skill curve(being adjusted in the PBE), and the followup number tuning that may require. It would be nice if they redid her champion spotlight to mention animation canceling and combos but at the same time that isn't a gameplay issue it is an education issue like it is for any champion with stutter stepping, animation canceling and ability buffering.

Nothing backs up any of the circlejerks you have posted on dozens of threads. It is outdated complaining not back by any real data, and it never comes with reasonable suggestions either. Just pure sodium cloride.

TyrekGoldenspearMay 4, 20174 votes

Mic drop

Troll for TrumpMay 5, 20171 votes

More like being unnecessarily pretentious and immature.

Troll for TrumpMay 5, 20171 votes

???

Where?

You can't use posts from the past and start randomly using them for ad hominems.

We're comparing Rivens and Assassins.

You keep randomly going on tangents, and getting angry for no reason. Stick to the topic.

I never said many of those things, and you just automatically turn them into hyperboles.

Riven is an undoubtedly an overloaded champ. Have I ever called her broken top tier meta shit?

No. I haven't.

You just straw manned it.

Just like you straw manned earlier. You do it again. I don't see you using any actual evidence that correlates to the point I argue, nor do you ever address it. All you do is use straw mans, and then use evidence for said straw men.

Yes, I have provided data. Do you not see what I posted above? I LITERALLY backed it up with the very evidence you provided, to prove my point. But you don't address that.

What do you do instead.

Start being toxic, start circlejerking about pro-Riven, and start pulling straw men all over the place.

You use arguments like everyone else. Vague ideals but no hard data.

Scroll. Up. I literally provided hard data, and you don't address it, not even once.

Your winrates/play rates had nothing to do at all with the point I said. Furthermore, the other points you suggested coincide and agree with what I mentioned earlier.

Can you just stop dodging the point, and actually talk about the discussion?

"A more skilled Riven can cover her weaknesses." so like any damn champion? A skilled Darius can cover the weakness of his Q channel time and inner circle through skills. A skilled Shyvana can cover her weakness to Kiting and poke through positioning, strategic use of her ult and buying a BotRK. A skilled Jhin can cover the weakness of his reload through positioning and weaving abilities in.

They can cover weaknesses, but less so than Riven. This is intended, because she's a high skill champ. A high skill champ has more champ potential. If we're going by old posts, I've addressed this before as well. You clearly aren't reading what I write. Please do so before posting.

A champ with a high skill floor such as Azir, Kali, Riven, or Yas can cover their weaknesses better than other champs could cover theirs. This is the reward for being a high skill cap champ. By picking high skill cap champs, you automatically have more potential than a simpler champ. This shouldn't be the case, and all champs should have near identical skill floors, and skill ceilings.

"Riven bursts harder than an assassin." Most champions who aren't tanks or supports can kill an ADC in 1-3 seconds depending on how fed they are. As shown on Shyvana in my clip 2.2s with my shitty mechanics and tanky build. Assassins aren't defined by damage alone, many classes from mages to fighters can burst.

That... is a gross oversimplification that fails to address my points. You restate your own points constantly, but never acknowledge the other side of whoever you're discussing with, except for ad hominems.

I literally addressed this already in a comment. Please read it.

"Riven has no counters when played correctly." Don't tell that to The Shy, Adrian, Boxbox, Viper, Best Riven NA or even Faker when he played her. If the best can't overwhelm all counters nobody can. If you mean in general them general statistics counter that. Otherwise she'd be P/B in lcs if she had no counters.

If you mean in general them general statistics counter that.

But they don't. There isn't a stat list for all the top tier rivens, only the ones in plat+.

THIS is when you should be using winrates/pickrates. The previous use was unrelated and unnecessary. See previous point about this.

"Mechanical skill can carry Riven with shitty game knowledge!" True, like any champion who isn't a hyper binary stat check(and even them to an extent) being better at the champion will let you climb, just like being better at map awareness, CS, teamplay, team fighting and general strategy and game knowledge. It is one of many assets that will boost your performance. The difference between Riven and Shyvana is that it is required for Riven to have some mechanical skills to succeed, Shyvana can get by without it.

Never said it.

You are pepetuating an ancient circlejerk that was once valid in the old design of LoL when Riven was drastically overtuned and most champions didn't have strong utilities and tools. Reworks and new releases, itemization changes and even a map rework. This is not that game. Riven's only big issues are lack of visual clarity, excessive skill curve(being adjusted in the PBE), and the followup number tuning that may require. It would be nice if they redid her champion spotlight to mention animation canceling and combos but at the same time that isn't a gameplay issue it is an education issue like it is for any champion with stutter stepping, animation canceling and ability buffering.

Once again, I have ADDRESSED this multiple times in the past. I can't keep track of how many times I have to stress it out to make it clear that Riven isn't OP by modern standards, and I have little issue with her. I am not biased, or perpetrating a circlejerk surrouding Riven. This is an unbiased viewpoint, and she, like most mechanical champs, just works out like that. I'd argue the same for Kalista, Vayne, Azir, or the like, but they don't show up as often, especially not in top lane.

What Riven facilitated was the beginning of power and mobility creep, rather than statchecking. A larger focus on mechanical skills with champs like Lee Sin and Riven. To keep up with a mechanical skill based game, they have to keep making more and more overloaded champs.

Top lane has deviated the least furthest away from this, and has the most statchecking, and would be better if it were kept that way. Mobility is not a tool that should be given to top laners, not even skirmishers.

Her biggest issue is her kit itself. A kit based on a bugged mechanic, which was then incorporated into her kit, is bad grounds for any champ. Her champ would be garbage in high elo without animation cancelling. This dependence is unhealthy. She needs a rework, to be a champ based primarily on the functions of their kit, rather than animation cancelling. Every champ has animation cancelling, but none are as dependent on it as Riven; they don't need it to function.

This is the main reason she needs a rework in my opinion. Secondary reason being bringing unnecessary mobility to top lane.

Nothing backs up any of the circlejerks you have posted on dozens of threads.

Wrong. I don't understand how you keep calling it circlejerk, when I clearly address your points, while you never address mine.

You say I never post evidence, yet you can't even scroll up. In this very discussion, I have provided tons of evidence.

You cannot dispute evidence simply because it contradicts with what you're arguing for.

Troll for TrumpMay 3, 20173 votes

Riven's combo is executed too fast. She basically bursts/unloads faster than every assassin in the game right now

Mira Arya EntheMay 3, 20174 votes

With drastically less safety and in fight mobility. If Riven does a full burst combo, E+W+T+R+AA+Q+R+AA+Q for example. She has blown her mobility. And even if this is late game so her E is back up again, she now has a 250 range dash to escape...

Meanwhile Zed, Fizz or Katarina jump in, blow a full combo then escape safely while more easily juking everything. Also their damage is more guaranteed.

Riven's advantage over an assassin is dueling power, cc and tankiness. Aka being a Skirmisher like Jax, Ekko, Fiora or Trynd. Her disadvantage is less escape/safety, less assured burst, harder time reaching the enemies and less juking power.

Troll for TrumpMay 3, 20172 votes

She has as good of an escape as many assassins, but not in-combat.

Her burst isn't less assured, because of the aforementioned quick burst combo. What she lacks is an escape after the burst combo, as you said, but actually getting her burst combo off, and the dmg it can do in that quick time period is much more than most assassins.

If an assassin charges into a teamfight, they will likely get away, hopefully killing the target. Riven can kill the target with her REWQQQ2ndR to blow up squishies(you see this a LOT), then get blown up depending on the momentum of the teamfight.

Because of her lack of get-out-of-jail cards after her combo, she needs to have a faster burst execution time, which is unfitting of a supposed bruiser. The assassin should be the one dying after blowing the squishy up. Riven honestly feels like an assassin, especially with her current build path. Her squishy build path shouldn't be the optimal one.

In terms of laning, most assassins have less guaranteed dmg than Riven, on account of what lanes they're going to. Facing melees mostly in top, and with a quicker burst time, Riven will more reliably kill their target.

Almost every assassin is melee, while their laning opponent tends to be ranged, rather than melee.

You're right, the new assassins can go in and burst their comboes, and get out, but they won't kill the person as reliably as Riven. They can execute ppl, but not really 100-0 them quickly anymore. THAT is what Riven can still do.

Riven's full burst combo "E+W+T+R+AA+Q+R+AA+Q"

will do more damage, in a shorter time window, than the comboes for other assassins, at her own risk.

Assassins are now less risk less reward, when they should be much more high risk, high reward.

Mira Arya EntheMay 3, 20174 votes

Even with animation canceling that full combo I just listed. One of 3 standard 'burst' combos, still takes a few seconds. A Riven who is behind will die getting that off. A Riven ahead will burst a squishy with it just like a fed assassin. But she is not an assassin, she is a Skirmisher. Comparing her to people like Jax, Yasuo, Fiora, Tryndamere, Ekko. These are Skirmishers. Tell me which one is immobile and cannot delete squishies when ahead.

Because I can do that on a Juggernaut, Tank or Diver plus tankiness minus mobility.

Troll for TrumpMay 3, 20172 votes

It takes LESS seconds than an assassin, is what I'm saying.

Zed, you have to wait for 2nd R. Akali's R, slow Q travel time, and other slow animations make her stuff delayed. Talon has W delay Ekko has a 3 hit gimmick Fizz ult has travel time and is delayed Leblanc's passive and chain 2nd dmg are delayed Zix is spamQ Kass is extremely slow, and he needs to ramp up with R spamming

Kat's burst is still quick. I don't play enough kat to say it with 100% confidence, but what I've seen, her burst is pretty quick. Rengar's burst is quick Shaco's burst is quick, but, his quick burst is very little. He's mostly sustained dmg, as he continues to autoattack you and sets up his boxes. Zix kinda fits in that as well

Diana isn't an assassin, but her burst combo is quicker than most of the assassins Riven's isn't an assassin, but her burst combo is quicker than most of the assassins

Initiating with EWR and following up with the other combo can keep you hard ccd for almost the entirety of the combo.

An assassin who is behind will likely die going through with their burst combo. They have a greater chance than RIven to escape, but deal less dmg, so the enemy takes less risks when they punish the person for engaging while behind.

Every champ in the game can sht on you when ahead. When Riven's ahead, she will unload her burst on you really quickly and delete you.

Darius, for instance, will likely dive you, and take much longer to get 5 stacks and ult you, as opposed to Riven unloading her full combo. Jax's burst combo takes forever, unless he's AP Jax Yasuo's bursty/sustained, and it simply isn't as quick as Riven, since his full combo won't usually kill a top laner, and he chases them to death while weaving Qs and Es Fiora has her passive system, hitting all 4 takes longer than Riven's burst combo Trynd mauls you to death with AAs, but he has no hard CC. His slow ramps up really quickly, but he doesn't max it first. If you stand still and let him hit you, he likely will kill you as quickly as Riven. His DPS/burst on a practice dummy would be more than Riven, but he wouldn't burst you as easily as RIven in lane. I haven't seen enough AP ekkos to comment on him. If he builds like he should be building with full AP, he'll burst you quick (his all-in, however, is more telegraphed because of how his W works. Riven's animation cancelling lets her "unload" her spells. When you Riven combo, there isn't a single idle moment, you will be using all your abilities at once. That's why I say she "unloads" rather than "bursts").

It's like when Panth does his WEQ, or Renek with his EWQ, but Riven can fit her entire kit in that short period and kill you, unlike the other two (maybe panth can pull it off if he's fed enough, Renek trades dmg for tankiness).

Mira Arya EntheMay 3, 20174 votes

3.2 seconds. Just check on League of Slow motion and Boxbox tutorial for it. Minimum 3.2 seconds for a full combo. But jist like any damage champion if fed enough she doesn't need a full combo if fed enough. The full combo is needed when cutting even. A fed Fizz or Kat can kill you in .5s there are death recaps showing that. So can a fed Riven. It is called being fed.

Troll for TrumpMay 3, 20171 votes

No, a Fizz and Kat cannot possibly kill you in .5 seconds.

Even if that were true, why does Riven's full burst combo, when the champs are even in lane, take less time than that of the assassins?

The assassins, meant to burst single targets down quickly, that are supposed to be high risk and high reward. Why is Riven getting amore high-risk high-reward playstyle with her comboes, and kit?

Mira Arya EntheMay 3, 20174 votes

https://youtu.be/5nzNpZrCEpg 1:14 full burst combo

https://youtu.be/Hsfz_yMzPiA 1:09 full burst combo

I am not seeing Riven killing things in seconds faster than assassins.

Troll for TrumpMay 3, 20171 votes

Did I not specifically mention that Kat was one of the "burst assassins" in the list above?

I believe I did.

Can't watch the videos now, though, have to wait til I return home, sry

Mira Arya EntheMay 3, 20174 votes

Champions who kill a supportless ADC in less than 3 seconds when doing well on gold...

Essentially every Skimisher, Diver, Assassin, Mage, several ADCs, most Juggernauts and even a couple tanks.

Riven is no different. ADCs are these things called squishies. They die when you touch them wrong.

Troll for TrumpMay 3, 20172 votes

Uh no, they don't kill ADCs in less than 3 seconds. Only assassins, a few divers, and some skirmishers can do that.

If the ADC stands still and is a practice dummy, that list might extend to a few more champs.

Even if the ADC stands still, most juggernauts, divers, and tanks won't kill them in 3 seconds. Mages definitely could.

Every ADC has some sort of safety net. The difference is that Riven can actually stop a lot of safety nets and still execute her combo, because she has hard cc.

Comparing Riven and Kat once again, ADCs can interrupt Kat midcombo, while they don't really have a good way to deal with Riven while she comboes. Riven is easier to kite before she starts her combo, however. This again makes her more high risk high reward than Kat; she has to take more risks to get closer, and, as a result, can kill the squishy with her full combo more reliably than Kat.

Ashe can ult to interrupt Kat ult Caitlyn can E out of Kat R range or after one of her many shunpos Corki Can W enhanced to interrupt ult or just W away out of ult range/after shunpo Draven can E to intterupt Kat ult Ezreal can E out of ult range/after shunpo Graves can E or R out of ult range Jhin can't do anything Kalista can dash out of ult range or use ult to interrupt. Ult is likely too slow, however Kindred has ult and can Q out of ult range KogMaw can't do anything Lucian can E out of ult range Quinn E interrupts ult, E after shunpo MissFortune can't do anything Sivir can spellshield something Tristana can R or W Varus can R Urgot can R Vayne can condemn Xayah can avoid something with ult

As for Riven, because of her CC, she can lock the ADCs out of doing things. For her, you can Xayah ult, or Sivir spellshield, but her stun from W will either get you killed, interrupt the dash, or still apply even as you blink (for Ez). Because she doesn't lock herself in place like Kat's ult, she has more versatility.

In most cases, the ADC will be dead no matter what they do, provided the Kat/Riven is ahead. But Kat still has more get-out-interactions mid combo.

This is an attempt at being as unbiased as possible; Riven's legit a better assassin than half of the assassin roster.

Mira Arya EntheMay 4, 20173 votes

Already tested Shyvana. With her standard build, runes and masteries. Shyvana item 1416 item 3748 item 3047 item 3143 item 3153 item 3026 I am able to kill any ADC except Xayah, Quinn and Vayne(due to their easy disengage) with one E+AA+Q+TH+AA which takes barely over a second.

And that is fairly standard for a lot of champions. They slowed down most assassins burst, but not by that much and they still have their own advantages over Riven. Which is why Riven ranks 35th top top laner

https://na.op.gg/champion/statistics

with plenty of more solid picks over her such as the aforementioned Pantheon.

While Kassadin, Fizz, Kat and Talon are all ranking pretty damn high for mid laners with better W/P rates on some of them.

If Riven was better damage, mobility, safety, utility and all around than them she would be not only the top top laner but would be picked mid like she was when she was overtuned in S3.

You have no argument other than "Riven is a damage dealer and kills things fast. Other champions don't kill things as fast tho some do. So she is bad!"

Troll for TrumpMay 4, 20172 votes

I am able to kill any ADC except Xayah, Quinn and Vayne(due to their easy disengage) with one E+AA+Q+TH+AA which takes barely over a second.

Can you prove that?

And that is fairly standard for a lot of champions.

No, it isn't

Riven's 35th because she's weaker right now, and will get weaker, as her arm pen items got nerfed and we approach a tankier meta. She's bad right now because she's not the best pick in the current meta.

Why are you quoting win/playrates?

They have absolutely nothing to do with this.

Win/playrates are an aggregate of many factors, themselves being a major part of it.

I never said Riven was better all around than any of them. I said she was a better assassin than most of the roster.

She can't go mid because she doesn't have the right kit to compete with the mages waveclear.

You have no argument other than "Riven is a damage dealer and kills things fast. Other champions don't kill things as fast tho some do. So she is bad!"

You literally just ignore all that I'm saying, out of personal bias. Not only that, you pulled a straw man. Please reread.

She's a better assassin than many assassins right now. Tell me how many assassins are played top lane, as assassins(and not tank fizz, that's not an assassin)

Mira Arya EntheMay 4, 20173 votes

Assassins go mid and jungle so almost none. I am still not sure why you keep comparing her to assassins she is a Skirmisher, of which several kill just as fast as her.

"Prove it" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw0jJb4U4yE Some of these are old some aren't. Point is almost any champion when fed can instant delete. The exceptions are mostly tanks and supports. But sure lemme go work on Shyvana burst clip since you don't know how LoL works enough to realize people have been complaining about getting 'one'shot since the days of Crit Shaco and Kassawin.

Mira Arya EntheMay 4, 20173 votes

https://vimeo.com/215934025 Please note Ashe does NOT have a PD, that said the overkill was so much that my TH active did 1/4th of it's potential damage and I did not use BotRK active at all. So the 12% reduction if she got an AA off wouldn't have meant much. Bearing my terrible mechanics which were slower than they should be she still died in under 3 seconds from when my damage began to when it ended(technicalling frame by frame it was 2.2 seconds from the time I connected to the time she was out of HP. That said counting the leap time it was 3 seconds). That said I fucked up not pushing TH fast enough and I also misclicked twice. ADCs are squishy as fuck that is the fucking point.

And this is my standard experience on Shyvana and about half the rest of the cast. Like a friend of mine said "A squishy surviving 2.5 seconds face tanking ANYTHING is insane." Even another ADC considering they attack 1.5-1.8 times a second with the average build and deal about a third of an ADCs HP per auto not counting abilities weaved in. But certainly any diver or skirmisher.

Assassins are not even soley defined by the ability to kill things fast, burst mages, some artillery mages, divers, skirmishers and even a couple Juggernauts do that plenty good. They are defined by their ability to kill things fast while being mobile, usually with escape and tricky tactics for doing so. With extremely powerful ability to bypass defenses by juking skillshots and outwitting enemies. Skirmishers only fringe this while leaning towards Divers/Fighters.

Shyvana better assassin than Zed confirmed?

Troll for TrumpMay 4, 20172 votes

Honestly, with that kind of dmg, yes, Shyvana would be a better assassin if that happened every game.

If everyone kills everything so quickly when ahead, why pick assassins?

Because assassins are supposed to be able to do that even when they're not ahead. Specifically, when they're even.

So, every champ in the game can oneshot when they're ahead, supposedly.

What if there's a champ that can oneshot when they're even.

Riven can do what assassins are supposed to do in lane but better. Both assassins and Riven are pretty mediocre teamfighters. Assassins are supposed to have get-out-of-jail free cards. But Riven's cooldowns are all burned in order to burst, so she has no way to get out. Looking at the Kat video, she has no way to get out either, since she unloaded all her abilities. A lot of assassins are like this; they do have a get out of jail card, but they rarely can actually use it to get out of jail, because they have to use the jail card to even get to the target. So why pick assassins?

Troll for TrumpMay 4, 20172 votes

I'm not saying when they're fed, but when they're ahead slightly or even.

Actually, where did I ever mention anyone being ahead?

What are you trying to say here that relates to what I was saying?

If the ADC isn't behind, they can definitely live for a while.

"A squishy surviving 2.5 seconds face tanking ANYTHING is insane

It really isn't.

Not every skirmisher and diver can kill them that quickly. Not in a way that they don't get a chance to react, which is what Riven (and what assassins should be) doing.

Why pick Riven over an assassin? What does each assassin have over Riven?

Point is almost any champion when fed can instant delete. The exceptions are mostly tanks and supports.

Why are you arguing for this?

You're literally agreeing with what I said

Troll for TrumpMay 3, 20172 votes

Actually watching the videos:

Riven bursted faster. Riven's combo took about 2 (1:08-1:10) second, while Kat's took about 3 (1:13-1:16) using approximations by playing the vids at 0.25 spd (rly bad approximations, but I was being generous and unbiased on each one, else I wouldn't have bothered playing at 0.25 spd in the first place).

Looks like the guy cut off Riven's last autoattack on the R2 combo

This was because of the daggers being delayed(intentionally to stall her burst time).

In addition Kat has to channel her ult (1:15-1:16), locking her in place and making her vulnerable to disruptions

You also earlier mentioned how assassins would get more safety.

Yet using the example provided in the video for the full Kat burst combo, she has no escapes at all. In fact. She had no daggers to leap to.

Chromatic EagleMay 3, 20171 votes

T? You mean tiamat?

Mira Arya EntheMay 3, 20173 votes

Yup

PhDs NutsMay 4, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3tEyufEs,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-05-03T20:34:42.873+0000)

With drastically less safety and in fight mobility. If Riven does a full burst combo, E+W+T+R+AA+Q+R+AA+Q for example. She has blown her mobility. And even if this is late game so her E is back up again, she now has a 250 range dash to escape...

Meanwhile Zed, Fizz or Katarina jump in, blow a full combo then escape safely while more easily juking everything. Also their damage is more guaranteed.

Riven's advantage over an assassin is dueling power, cc and tankiness. Aka being a Skirmisher like Jax, Ekko, Fiora or Trynd. Her disadvantage is less escape/safety, less assured burst, harder time reaching the enemies and less juking power.

lol, let's not pretend Riven can "blow" her mobility. She's the fastest champion in the game with CDR.

Mira Arya EntheMay 4, 20173 votes

Kassadin "uwotm8?"

PB4UAMEMay 4, 20171 votes

Not over moderate amounts of time due to how it has a stacking mana cost. Meanwhile Riven is entirely manaless.

VoraciousXMay 4, 20173 votes

{quoted}

lol, let's not pretend Riven can "blow" her mobility. She's the fastest champion in the game with CDR.

Riven can't outrun a lot of champions, trust me, I've experienced it. So saying she is the most mobile in the game is a far cry from the truth. Besides, we all know(or should) full attack speed Jhin is faster than any champion out there. Renekton has more mobility than Riven for example(Or at least as much, but he usually catches me with his two dashes), if you actually count her dashes for what they are(two dashes, not 4, as her Q1,Q2, and Q3 equal about one dash in length, unless her Q3 is a wallhop, in which case it might be considered she has 3 dashes).

As for that whole Katarina example where she "didn't have a dagger to E to", Katarina doesn't have to have a dagger. Minions and allies also work, and if you use your third E after going in to go in harder you're doing it wrong unless you have no enemies left to fight or know you will be fine, and in that situation, that was exactly what happened, and that Riven build in the example was OVERLY AD heavy. She didn't have any armor or MR at all except for edge of night, and the only HP she had was from cleaver. If you build like an assassin then you'll do as much damage as one, obviously. Heck you could go full AP Nautilus and probably 100-0 someone with Q+ult. Should take about the same time too.

PB4UAMEMay 8, 20171 votes

You replied to the wrong person.

VoraciousXMay 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You replied to the wrong person.

The blow her mobility thing was at Wanfear, the other one was at the other guy, I was using my phone though and it's painful using it on these forums imo so I just directed it at the other guy rather than using a quote of his.

For Riven, every Q moves her 260 units, for 780 total range on a full use of Q one time, and can move 325 units for one E.

Q1 range: 260 Q2 range: 112.5 Q3 range: 150 This would mean she can move around 520 with a full combination of Qs(unless she's jumping a wall, if she jumps a wall with 3rd Q. If she jumped a wall it'd be around 225 I guess at most since the wall has to be at most half of your Q3 range). This would mean in your example she's moving 520 range in 7.8 seconds. This would mean in 11.4 seconds she's moving 847 range using only her abilities. That's 1695 in 22.8 seconds. To make it 25 seconds I divided the 847 by 11.4 to get around 74.2 units per second, then multiplied it by 25. This got me 1855 units in 25 seconds. That's drastically lower than you claimed. Might also mention Riven is wasting her mobility if she's using it only for movement, her Q is made so that she basically HAS to get on top of you to use it to it's fullest potential. The only logical explanation for this comparison would be if they were both using their mobility to run away, so why even make the comparison? Her damage is tied to her mobility. It isn't like you're hopping around all over the place while STILL slaughtering the enemy team. You have to auto between Qs to get the most of your damage, meaning you have to be on top of someone to use Q for damage, how do you get on top of someone? You E into them, or flash, but you'd only use flash if you knew you could get the kill. So all of this mobility is used to get on top of the enemy and fight them. It's not like she can just go in, blow her load, and then woo she's back at her tower, especially during laning.

Might I also add if she's CCed mid Q, her other Qs will go on cooldown before the CC ends most of the time, meaning that half of her mobility is gone by that point.

PB4UAMEMay 8, 20171 votes

Here, since I was apprently downvoted by people who simply don't understand.

Kassadin, unless he's gone for both a RoA and a Tear, and maybe some other mana items as well, cannot ult more than five times without going OoM as it would take over 2,100 mana to ult 6 times, without regards to any other skills being used.

So, over 10 seconds, while spending over 2k mana, Kassadin can move up to 2,500 units, then must wait 15 seconds before he can ult again.

So, over a 25 second interval using all of his mana, he can move a maximum of 2,500 units, or 100 units a second on average.

For Riven, every Q moves her 260 units, for 780 total range on a full use of Q one time, and can move 325 units for one E.

If she Q's and E's she moves a total of 1105 units, at no mana cost.

Riven maxes CDR as soon as possible, with meta builds including between 10-25% CDR from runes and masteries, and often rushing a caulfield's warhammer, and Kindlegem to max out that CDR cap before even completing her first item (used to be a straight BC rush, but that's falling off in popularity this patch, as people are going warhammer, kindle gem into death dance, and either getting a later BC or foregoing it entirely).

With this in mind, considering Riven with 40% CDR is necessary, as most mains will get CDR capped very early on. Riven's Q coooldown starts as soon as she's used the first q, and takes 13 seconds (7.8 with CDR) to come back up. Her E cooldown scales down by level to 6 seconds (usually maxed second, but sometimes maxed last) with CDR it drops to as low as 3.6 seconds (6 seconds at rank 1 40% CDR)

So, every 7.8 seconds she can move 780 range, or an average of 100 range a second from her Q, again without mana cost. With her Q alone, Riven is more mobile than Kassadin without factoring in mana costs at all, as she has none, and can keep this up literally indefinitely.

Her E, using the rank 1 values, gives her an additional 325 units of gapcloser every 6 seconds, for a little over 50 units a second, again with no mana cost, and can be kept up additionally. At rank 5, its 325 units of gapcloser every 3.6 seconds for almost 100 units a second.

in that 25 second interval, Riven could use her full Q 3 full times, and have it up again for a fourth rotation, traveling 2,340 units from her Q alone. Additionally she could have E'd 4 times at rank 1 for an additional 1300 units, or 6 times at rank 5 E, for 1950 units, with her 7th E coming up .2 seconds later.

All told, for the same interval, Riven can travel between 3,640 and 4,290 units to Kassadin's 2,500. She can repeat this forever without any issue, whereas Kassadin would be OoM. As such, any calculations over a time period longer than 25 seconds only serves to grossly favor Riven even more.

nuclearwarpotatoMay 4, 20173 votes

I am not against Riven having all of these extra things she can do. The only thing that annoys me is how they treat her animation cancelling different than other champions. On her it is treated as just a display of skill and mechanics, but on other champions, graves for instance with his e and r changes, it is an unintended exploit that they remove from the game.

AazzlanoMay 3, 20172 votes

Few seasons ago I played against BRNA in a ranked game, prior to this I had never seen the animation cancelling actually done properly but I got killed almost instantly from it. Was really dumb, had no idea how he did so much damage in so little time from just (what I thought was just) Q'ing me. Feels like hacking tbh when the other Rivens do like you said, like half the damage lol.

Asayake 5150glowMay 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Few seasons ago I played against BRNA in a ranked game, prior to this I had never seen the animation cancelling actually done properly but I got killed almost instantly from it. Was really dumb, had no idea how he did so much damage in so little time from just (what I thought was just) Q'ing me. Feels like hacking tbh when the other Rivens do like you said, like half the damage lol.

Her damage is just too high early game, but that's because everyones damage is. I've died from a simple fast combo from 80% health with Irelia while I was tanking minions (I was running away, not dumb enough to fight like that) at level 5.

MunchCrunchLunchMay 3, 20171 votes

problem is that I see that riven is Qing me. I look at death recap and 80% of her damage was basic attack. where were the basic attacks? I didn't see her auto me at all. riven doesn't just cancel animation. she combines the Q animation with her auto attacks.