Why is the Spelltheif line getting powercreep buffed instead of nerfing Coin line?

AirKingNeo·Sep 2, 2017·33 votes·1,535 views

> Eye of the Watchers

CDR increased from 10% to 20%

> Frost Queen's Claim

CDR increased from 10% to 20%

I don't understand. We all know Coin needs nerfs, and if Spelltheif line needed more buffs it would be a slight bit more gold generation. The lack of additional Ardent Censer nerfs also worries me.

Honestly, I'd rather have support items all have good gold gen and support items become more costly so they aren't as abusably by other classes, with the potential downside being that supports might be problematic buying other classes's items.

49 Comments

RexxieeSep 2, 20174 votes

Because riot wants to make sure support stays the strongest role in the game, probably because half of the balance team are silver support mains.

InstaPoppySep 2, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Because riot wants to make sure support stays the strongest role in the game, probably because half of the balance team are silver support mains.

You think support is the strongest role?

AirKingNeoSep 2, 20173 votes

item 3504 item 3190 item 3109 item 3301

With this broken shit? Kinda.

RedCycloneSep 2, 20174 votes

Oversaturation of CDR, it needed more gold gen (or just nerf coins again)

Should have made it grant 5g on hitting after you are out of charges

SpecterVonBarenSep 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Should have made it grant 5g on hitting after you are out of charges

Zyra : AHAHAHAHAHAHA HA!

SteelflameSep 2, 20171 votes

So many abuse cases with that it isn't even funny. It would gen more gold than coin + relic combined if that was the case for champs like Brand and Zyra.

RedCycloneSep 3, 20171 votes

Give it an inherent 1sec cooldown so it can't proc off DOTs, simple

SteelflameSep 3, 20171 votes

many dots tick on 1 second intervals, and Zyra can chain many small hits.

A 1 second inner cooldown punishes people who drop their entire combo fast, not people who are DoT users.

Hexs FortuneSep 2, 20173 votes

20 percent cdr, pretty appealing

TyroneWatermelonSep 2, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hexs Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3pfmhAUk,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-09-02T02:46:50.546+0000)

20 percent cdr, pretty appealing

appealing along with 10% from item 3107 item 3109 item 3504 item 3174 item 3222 item 3158 item 3060 item 3050 right?

ProfDrDeathSep 2, 201710 votes

Considering that the Spellthief's line is more intended for offensively-/poke-oriented supports, yes.

Having access to CdR beyond support items helps supports like Zyra or Velkoz , who'd rather build into item 3116 and other more AP-focused items than into the enchanter/tank support stuff you are describing.

Daedric EtwahlSep 3, 20171 votes

It's not only for those midlane mages in the support role though. Spellthief's has always been Sona's main support item, at least until Coin became overbearing, and these "buffs" do pretty much nothing to help her,

ProfDrDeathSep 3, 20171 votes

In its current form and independent of its power level, Coin is better for Sona, since it features far higher mana regeneration with the coins restoring % missing.

Daedric EtwahlSep 3, 20171 votes

Very true, but in my personal experience Coin doesnt feel nearly as good because youre giving up so much of your early damage. Plus if the enemy support is something like an Alistar he can zone you off your coins completely and you can do nothing at all back to him.

Mildly related but I mist concede that 250g combine cost for EotO does feel amazing.

belrokSep 2, 20177 votes

Well we are getting a CDR converter that'll make some of that CDR into extra AP... so I GUESS it's worth?

Hexs FortuneSep 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Do Not Exist,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3pfmhAUk,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-09-02T10:29:07.087+0000)

appealing along with 10% from right?

Pretty rigid thinking on your part if thats the only use you see for it

HaIlMonitorSep 3, 20171 votes

Why would you build item 3158 anymore? It will be pointless on more champs now basically. #mobiesonbrand

ABlueQuakerSep 2, 20173 votes

Yeah wtf. Now we're gonna have Vel'koz Supports running around with item 2301 item 3157 + CDR Glyphs and actually being a Secondary Mage.

SalsonSep 2, 20173 votes

Probably the same person who gave them free power in the form of missions, without nerfing stats or prices.

Leaf on BushSep 2, 20171 votes

The way you talk about supports i can already tell that you don't play support yourself. Why? Probably they are not strong enough for you, not enough bashing head against wall to satisfy your ego. Kinda ironic though that you don't want supports to get power, be it free or not.

SalsonSep 2, 20172 votes

I play them enough, Autofill kicks in once every 5-6 games.

Supports, or rather their items, are smiply too strong at the moment. While Marksman did get pointless damage buffs, supports are the reasn they became unkillable.

Leaf on BushSep 2, 20172 votes

Why do you lie? Over 40 games in a row of non-support picks and( oh what a coincidence) just today (your most recent match) you happened to play one game as support. 10 days ago you played ONE sona game and then again a long list of non-support. Pretty much in only 2 of your 100 most recent games you played support.

Autofill kicks in once every 5-6 games.

Yes sure, but then you must must be dodging all the time. lul You are just pretending.

SalsonSep 2, 20173 votes

Hey look, I finaly got my own stalker.

Why do you lie? Over 40 games in a row of non-support picks and( oh what a coincidence) just today (your most recent match) you happened to play one game as support. 10 days ago you played ONE sona game and then again a long list of non-support. Pretty much in only 2 of your 100 most recent games you played support.

Wow, Top/Mid gives Top a lot. What's your point, why would I play a random role if I'm not autofilled and no one asked to swap?

Yes sure, but then you must must be dodging all the time. lul You are just pretending.

You can add Jungle in there, and Adc when I'm not with a friend. I'm pretending what exactly, that I play my role when autofilled?

AirKingNeoSep 2, 20173 votes

He's not allowed to complain about powercreep? I mean, seriously? The entire support role has been getting powercreep buffed overtime to much that it's absurd. New quests? How about free added on +%Heal/Shield power? The buffs to numerous of their items? Locket, Ardent, KV all being broken? Coin being a must?

SalsonSep 2, 20172 votes

It's probably some lame atemps at whiteknighting.

To be fair, supports were never OP before and a lot of people take a long time to adjusst to the fact.

WoonStruckSep 2, 20171 votes

Lol.

You think supports were never OP. There are many metas in the past that were defined by support.

SalsonSep 2, 20171 votes

Supports as a class or specific champs?

Idk, I don't remember any, I started in S5 but only started caring about the meta in S6.

DarkRitualSep 2, 20173 votes

I think the Coin line would be fine if the other two item lines were brought up to par. I beleive this is the intention.

AirKingNeoSep 2, 20173 votes

That's called powercreep.

ninjaroxasSep 2, 20171 votes

Well supports like haveing gold too you know

AirKingNeoSep 2, 20173 votes

And I like a balanced game where supports don't get free buffs for no reason and melee champions aren't invalidated as supports just peel even harder.

DarkRitualSep 2, 20172 votes

I'd like supports to have a similar gold income to other roles. Then increase the cost of support items to match other roles. This will help elsewhere by making support builds not less expensive, so multi-support teamcomps aren't online faster than other comps when at least one of those is on a normal laner gold income.

Of course other adjustments needed, where needed.

AirKingNeoSep 2, 20171 votes

I don't disagree. Giving supports better gold income while increasing support item's prices so other classes can't abuse it isn't that bad of an idea. The potential downside is full damage supports not having any punishment.

DarkRitualSep 2, 20171 votes

Full damage supports would be a potential issue. Not unsolvable though. Adjustments to Spelltheif's Edge line can help. The internal delay on the Tribute procs already helps, and is partly why it's still so bad compared to Coin. Moving to Unique ability triggers as new runes are bringing would accomplish much of the same without significantly buffing it for champs like Brand.

I'm not convinced the meta will completely shift towards that for too long, if it completely moves that way at all. I think it's a worthwhile avenue to look into for sure though.

ninjaroxasSep 3, 20171 votes

Yes and if you want a balanced game supports need to be balanced too. That means they have to be actually able to do their jobs. Which is too peel.

AirKingNeoSep 3, 20171 votes

They have been for 5 seasons. Why do they need needless buffs?

ninjaroxasSep 3, 20172 votes

There is a difference between barely being able to do it and decently doing it. Anytime supports are decent assassins and melees throw a fit since they cant 1v2 the adc and support.

Coin should have a small nerf then the other two items should be brought to its level. Id rather assassins and melees struggle against supports then visa versa because that's how it's meant to be

Leaf on BushSep 2, 20173 votes

Are you serious? Nobody needs that stupid ass CDR. How is that even a buff? I mean sure it's gonna work like charm if you pick soraka and go

item 3504 item 3092 item 3158 item 3089 and just stomp bot lane now with capped cdr at 3 items. lul

But then its becoming really hard to not waste more gold by overcapping cdr, not gonna matter I guess, because you won anyway :D

I doubt this is going live to be honest, it makes no sense to add even more cdr to the game. My guess is that they are doing this for those aggressive mage supports that use item 3116 item 3151 or some shit. But nothing will stop me from using this on an aggressive Soraka.

They should try to make the individual items more unique so they get a clear purpose for diffrent playstyles instead of adding some random stats like gold gen or cdr. The quests were a nice attempt but the diffrence between coin and spellthief ended up being too meaningless. Now they are just doing more redundant tweaks and palyers will once again pick the item for better stats but not for the playstyle synergy.

They can just remove coin for all I care. Allow Thresh and Rakan to use Relic Shield properly ... and done. They are already looking for ways to make Janna more interactive so theoretically she would be able to use spellthief too. Who needs coin then?

Also they really need to get rid of that sightstone + starter item fusion, because there is barely any diffrence between item 2302 and item 2301 .

AuroramancerSep 2, 20171 votes

Overcapping CDR will have a benefit with the new rune system. I think overcapping CDR = more AD/AP? Not sure on the specifics.

koshkyraSep 2, 20172 votes

Lux item 3092 mid

I already bought this item on lux mid, now riots just giving me more of a reason to

Leaf on BushSep 2, 20171 votes

Even with 20% cdr that is still stupid. xD

WoonStruckSep 2, 20171 votes

Not really. It gives a 50% MS buff each time you proc it.

I know a challenger vlad that builds it.

SukishooSep 2, 20172 votes

Changes are for pros and what they need.

Darkdemon653Sep 2, 20172 votes

{quoted}

> Eye of the Watchers

CDR increased from 10% to 20%

> Frost Queen's Claim

CDR increased from 10% to 20%

I don't understand. We all know Coin needs nerfs, and if Spelltheif line needed more buffs it would be a slight bit more gold generation. The lack of additional Ardent Censer nerfs also worries me.

Honestly, I'd rather have support items all have good gold gen and support items become more costly so they aren't as abusably by other classes, with the potential downside being that supports might be problematic buying other classes's items.

At the start of your next game, one of your players is going to disconnect. You don't know this beforehand, so you can't specifically build a team around that. Which one would you most prefer to do this? Yes, the support. That is the correct answer in 100% of situations. That is a problem.

Zero Skill TankSep 2, 20171 votes

Because magic damage threats are virtually nonexistant outside of mid, and if they don't buff damage oriented supports they would need to nerf AD tops and junglers, and after than tanks. Tanks are not balancable when game is so saturated with physical damage.

DragonSheaSep 2, 20171 votes

Too much CDR.

ZephyrDrakeSep 2, 20171 votes

i think you fail to recognize this is pretty much a nerf to the spellthief line due to how abundant CDR is already for supports. It's already way too easy to reach the cap that all a "buff" like this would accomplish is make it even less of an attractive buy to any spellthief user that is currently buying coin

Iota ThetaSep 2, 20171 votes

Personally, I think changes would be better focused on the earlier side of things (Relic Shield/Targon's Brace, Spellthief/Frostfang, AC/Ancient Talisman). Ancient Coin is bought for it's superior gold generation, but it needs to have the drawback of less power in lane. If it felt like an actual choice as to whether you want gold gen or more lane pressure, it might not be as bad. But it doesn't seem like it sacrifices all that much when held against the other two lines, even when all it offers is the gold passive and health regen. Problem is the main way to fix that would be to buff Relic and Spellthief so they feel stronger despite the lesser gold gen.