Cass passive bonuses and rewards should be utility/non damage based

Kingsgrave·Dec 1, 2014·20 votes·1,574 views

Stuff like: "bonus MS when enemies are poisoned" "reset on poison enemies" "heal on using E" etc.,

Stuff you can't get from items

27 Comments

OrbvDec 1, 20149 votes

I never understood why instead of having a stack passive for Cass, why can't enemy champions carry poison stacks? Depending on how poisoned the champion has been all game should make her abilities have utility rewards. Like if you've taken 100 stacks of Noxious Blast, it seems reasonable that Cass now moves 10% faster than her 20% boost.

It would make the "Poison" aspect seem more poison---y. I don't think Riot even understands what most natural poisons do. However, I do appreciate the new change of adding damage after twin fangs. Because poison entering from a wound are bound to do more damage.

BUT

The way they should have implemented it was that Twin Fang Resets if the target is poisoned.

IF the target is NOT poisoned, then they receive a debuff that makes Cass' next poison ability last for a longer duration.

This way she can maintain BOTH identities without succumbing to one playstyle.

Robins TightsDec 1, 20142 votes

I don't think the duration fix would help too much. But I would like to have a mechanic for when twin fang hits a non-poisoned target. If she's limited to her passive now, she needs to receive more incentive to use Twin Fang without her poison.

SmokingPuffinDec 1, 20141 votes

I never understood why instead of having a stack passive for Cass, why can't enemy champions carry poison stacks? Depending on how poisoned the champion has been all game should make her abilities have utility rewards. Like if you've taken 100 stacks of Noxious Blast, it seems reasonable that Cass now moves 10% faster than her 20% boost.

I don't think this will work out well. You're going to end up with a billion stacks on your lane opponent, some on the jungler, and none on the other lanes. Cassiopeia isn't mobile, which means she won't be able to reliably target the opponents she's stacked up on. You'll end up with a champion that is really really deadly to the enemy mid, only they don't care, because they're never in range for Cass to do anything.

TheFrozenIslesDec 1, 20142 votes

I sort of agree with the idea of her being able to stack poison on the enemy but nothing like her passive.

What I had in mind for the last few days is some thing like she get 4 stack or so on the enemy and on the next poison abilities he does some thing more. Like her E root them in place or Q does more damage or educes the target’s healing and regeneration by some %....ect.

Khell DarkWolfDec 1, 20141 votes

I never understood why instead of having a stack passive for Cass, why can't enemy champions carry poison stacks? Depending on how poisoned the champion has been all game should make her abilities have utility rewards. Like if you've taken 100 stacks of Noxious Blast, it seems reasonable that Cass now moves 10% faster than her 20% boost.

It would make the "Poison" aspect seem more poison---y. I don't think Riot even understands what most natural poisons do. However, I do appreciate the new change of adding damage after twin fangs. Because poison entering from a wound are bound to do more damage.

BUT

The way they should have implemented it was that Twin Fang Resets if the target is poisoned.

IF the target is NOT poisoned, then they receive a debuff that makes Cass' next poison ability last for a longer duration.

This way she can maintain BOTH identities without succumbing to one playstyle.

Would something like this work?

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/w6IdOxBP-discuss-cassiopeia-kit-rework-twist

OrbvDec 2, 20142 votes

Omg this exactly

5G8Nri0B54Dec 2, 20142 votes

I never understood why instead of having a stack passive for Cass, why can't enemy champions carry poison stacks?

Because that'd make sense...

Kowe The EwokDec 1, 20144 votes

I have suggested this quite a few times. I'ld love it to add power to her poison like:

(Just an example, by no means final values)

50: Poison reduces attack damage by 7
100: Poison reduces movementspeed by 8%. This bonus stacks with Miasma.
150: Poison reduces Armor and Magic Resist by 10%
200: Poison reduces AP and AD by 5% ....
500: Poisons increase the cooldown of your opponents by 0.75s.

Cale017Dec 1, 20142 votes

I feel like that might be a bit too much micromanaging, and a lot of those values won't really help a whole lot towards the late game. Sure you can reduce the 200 attack on that late game Vayne by 5%, but a Vayne with 190 AD is still going to pin you to a wall and turn you into a purse all the same, she might just need half an auto more.

Kowe The EwokDec 1, 20142 votes

As I mentioned these are not final values. Just a general tendancy of what could be done.

SmokingPuffinDec 1, 20141 votes

I have suggested this quite a few times. I'ld love it to add power to her poison like:

(Just an example, by no means final values)

50: Poison reduces attack damage by 7

100: Poison reduces movementspeed by 8%. This bonus stacks with Miasma.

150: Poison reduces Armor and Magic Resist by 10%

200: Poison reduces AP and AD by 5% ....

500: Poisons increase the cooldown of your opponents by 0.75s.

I like this kind of idea in theory, but you're going to have a very hard time making it readable.

For example, Sona W2 was bugged for two years. During that time, she was the most played support in the game. Nobody noticed that her "-20% enemy damage dealt" actually did nothing at all. That's how not readable these kinds of debilitating effects are in League engine.

To make this kind of thing work, the poison effects need to be really punchy. That kind of goes against what poison wants to be, which is a long term debilitating effect. Thorny design problem.

Cale017Dec 1, 20144 votes

That actually sounds really cool. It gives an incentive to keeping up with her stacks throughout all stages of the game, and can also help alleviate much of her issues early on. Making her a bit harder to lock down with the MS boost while making her kiting easier is great. Giving her a heal in her kit that you have to earn contributes to her late game hyper carry style by not rewarding it to you until mid to late game, which is also when tanks are finishing their MR items most of the time. A bit of healing can help out a lot at that point to keep you alive just that little bit longer to finish the job.

I like it. I really do.

5G8Nri0B54Dec 1, 20144 votes

I disagree and agree at the same time.

AGREE:

-yeah let's not make her complete shit early game and only worth a damn late game

-yeah let's give players something to look forward to other than "ooohh! look Little Billy! bigger numbers! wee!! Just never ever build anymore CDR items ever again!"

DISAGREE:

-it's still a shackle. It's still a powergate no matter how you put it. A fully stacked Cassiopeia will STILL be considerably more powerful than a stackless one even with equal level and build.

-Cassiopeia is poisoning her enemies...............so that she herself can grow stronger?

-a POISON CHAMPION SHOULD NOT BE SPENDING MORE TIME BUILDING HER OWN POWER THAN SHE IS DEBILITATING HER ENEMIES

-the milestones are crappy and unrewarding, especially when they're behind like 500 stacks.

TendrianDec 2, 20144 votes

No. Not at all. Stacks simply shouldn't be a thing on Cassiopeia in the first place.

Threads like these only give Stashu the (wrong) impression something can be salvaged from this garbage mechanic.

omegademanDec 1, 20143 votes

I'll bite.

Why?

Rock RockburghDec 1, 20148 votes

Well, don't know OP's motivations, but it would definitely make her feel more unique. The current passive is just "she hits harder as time goes on," which is the same thing everyone else does. I feel like every champ should have something that nobody else can do-- Riot's been doing well on that front with the last few releases (though they've also been kind of crazy in comparison with the more "samey" champs of old...) and that's great-- Azir, Rek'Sai, and Kalista all feel really unique, at least from an outsider's perspective. (Haven't had a chance to play them yet, I'm too broke.)

BouncingPecsDec 1, 20142 votes

Kalista in theory is really unique. But honestly she's like the donut you put on a baseball bat for practice before you go up to bat. It only makes your play better. I actually am better at other carries, especially vayne, now that I've played her a bit. Clicking in a direction right after clicking for an auto is essentially what you should be doing as any hunter/ranged carry

Rock RockburghDec 1, 20141 votes

Well yes, that's what you should be doing, but a fair number of players don't. On top of that, Kalista is so much better at it (from what I've heard) that it makes her a significantly better kiter. So she both encourages you to do something that many players forget, and does it better. A LOT better-- no other champ is going to cross walls by orbwalking. (Unless there's some sort of Spectre dagger thing on somebody, I don't know.)

AbyssphereDec 1, 20147 votes

I'll bite.

Why?

Because all the passive currently is is an excuse to give her horrendous ratios. Get rid of the damage boost on the passive and her ratios no longer need to be gutted plus she gets some fun utility bonuses that actually allow her to do things she couldn't do before (e.g Twin Fang spell vamp).

Cale017Dec 1, 20142 votes

Bite.

Snake.

Heh.

SaevumDec 1, 20143 votes

Guys Guys,

Can anyone confirm a 'Pokemon-like-toxic' in W? - This was one of the 'prototype-proposals' back then (by Stashu himself), somewhere in a hidden Thread... somewhere...

Sure you guys also read it right?

Robins TightsDec 1, 20144 votes

Yes! I wish she played like that. Poison getting continuously stronger.

KingsgraveDec 1, 20145 votes

Guys Guys,

Can anyone confirm a 'Pokemon-like-toxic' in W? - This was one of the 'prototype-proposals' back then (by Stashu himself), somewhere in a hidden Thread... somewhere...

Sure you guys also read it right?

Toxic gets inflicted and it does increasingly more damage over-time. There is also a move called Venoshock that deals double damage to those who are poisoned.

AbyssphereDec 1, 20141 votes

Guys Guys,

Can anyone confirm a 'Pokemon-like-toxic' in W? - This was one of the 'prototype-proposals' back then (by Stashu himself), somewhere in a hidden Thread... somewhere...

Sure you guys also read it right?

He said he was thinking about it but didn't confirm he was going to implement it unfortunately. Would be really cool though.

Grand ElevenDec 2, 20141 votes

Guys Guys,

Can anyone confirm a 'Pokemon-like-toxic' in W? - This was one of the 'prototype-proposals' back then (by Stashu himself), somewhere in a hidden Thread... somewhere...

Sure you guys also read it right?

Read it, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Basically he's still keeping damage tied to "E" just creating a new mechanic whereas using E applies a debuff on the target. If you then hit Q/W the poison damage is increased (I'm not sure by how much).

I'm not certain this will work ... but at this stage I have almost no doubt it will hit live regardless.

Hyrum GraffDec 1, 20141 votes

Nothing new here -- why does this warrant its own post?

SmokingPuffinDec 1, 20141 votes

No can do.

Cass passive exists to keep the big scary damage gated away from the laning phase. The thing has to add a ton of damage output or the current design doesn't work.