@Meddler: Love the Nasus changes but consider this:

HateDaddy··6 votes·859 views

First off, I'm a plat 1 scrub Nasus main and have been since season 2 with well over 2k games on him. In that time, I've seen things change and how Nasus has had to adapt to those changes at a very close perspective. While I may not be "the best Nasus player on the server (for what it's worth; I think that's a ridiculous claim for anyone to make)" I do have a great amount of experience on him stretching back to earlier times in league of legends. In short, I feel my feedback can be valuable given the circumstances.

I love the E changes and I love the goal here: Nasus struggles with dealing with tanks because all takes to ignore him are tabis + one armor item and some HP. And as time has gone on, tanks in the niche have gotten significantly tankier while Nasus has gained no way to do that. In essence, he's lost his ability to front line when this used to be a fairly safe fallback option for him, which always made him useful. Because of this, Nasus has no place in the game. He's outclassed as a split pusher, teamfighter, skirmisher and front liner for the sake of his potential. The reality is, Nasus never truly reaches his potential and that's why he's currently one of the worst champions in the game.

I see the direction you're going here and I applaud the effort and creativity behind it but I'm not a fan of the Qs reduced CD on Fury of the Sands. I suspect you don't feel this will be too strong early because Nasus won't have enough CDR for it to become devastatingly effective. However, that isn't true. Most Nasus players run in the neighborhood of 10-20% CDR (I actually run no CDR on runes believe it or not unless I'm in a free lane) and can but a CDR item upon first back. At this point, Nasus is 6/7 with 3-4 points in Q and 20-30% CDR. While the base damage on Q isn't high, it's still an auto attack reset. This makes his ability to all-in devastating and I fear that this could lead to him being slightly too good in the early game.

However, I could be wrong. And that leads me to my next point. You have all but conceded that Nasus can no longer reach backlines unless he pulls off godlike flanks. You want to make him front line better. Even if his Q is busted on ult or total shit, it makes no difference - it won't help him front line. Nasus often only gets off a few Qs anyway because of all the stuns/slows/snares that cancel its animation until he resets it or puts him out of range entirely.

Nasus needs better means of healing on the front line, not more damage, specifically more DPS damage in this case. Besides, with these Q changes, id argue his identity moves away from that of a juggernaut and more of a sustained damage fighter. It's splitting hairs really, but regardless of what you call it no don't think it lives up to his fantasy. Consider his passive, soul eater and his mammoth size and god-like presence - I don't picture something like that slapping you with a staff like they're on an adderral binge. Feels more like an angry pug with little-man syndrome at that point.

This is the PBE and because it's so early, let me make a suggestion that you could potentially explore. Scrap the Q cooldown reduction on ult and give him some sort of %healing that applies pre-mitigation so Nasus can actually heal off of front lines. Take away the scaling armor and MR values with his ult as time goes on, if the healing on ult is done right, he won't need them. You could potentially even reduce the MR/armor values he gets in the future. Your current changes could mean disaster for his kit if you have to power budget somewhere else but with this change, I think you simply need to crunch numbers instead of making major direct kit changes. Plus this is what he needs to effectively heal, whether it be on just Q or all of his damage, I think this is a healthier and more gameplay oriented change.

As always, thanks for your time!

23 Comments

A Bad Nasus2 votes

I'm pretty much in the same boat with your opinions. I'm D5 with almost 1.2 mil mastery points on him and I agree that they are putting a bit too much power in his ult with the q changes. Increasing Nasus's dps is nice, but it isn't what I think will address his thematic success in the game which should be his sustain. Giving him an old school last whisper will help him lifesteal a bit more, but shouldn't Nasus be rewarded more survivability when he is able to stick to his targets?

I also feel that an updated %heal tied to his q in ult is just the thing that will help him finally realize his niche in the game which is a slow-moving drain-tanking behemoth of death. He also has one of the worst starting mana pools in the game in terms of how easy it is to go oom on him using spells other than q. So I feel that increasing his base stats per level, namely, his mana and ad will also help give him that extra oomph he needs to be something more than a laughable pick in high elo.

(Edit) Something else to consider.

With all the healing, peels, shields, and cleanses in the game granting the full strength of the slow in wither at the start when fully ranked (or tied by level) should be another thing worth looking at, with the slow degrading over time rather than the way it is now.

HateDaddy1 votes

For anyone who wants to see the changes, they can be found here:

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2017/07/712-pbe-update.html?m=1

Akali is SO HOT1 votes

Thanks :))))

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3e4pHy0X,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-07-13T22:41:58.494+0000)

Thanks :))))

go back to college if you aren't going to clean out my toe jam you ungrateful brat god damn kids

KoKoboto1 votes

Spirit Fire ignores a lot more more armor now against people who build armor so if that is something to consider.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

Spirit Fire ignores a lot more more armor now against people who build armor so if that is something to consider.

It does but remember that Nasus is typically pretty easy to walk away from and kite, so every Q counts. I just worry that he won't be able to get enough Qs off, or in the event that he does, it might actually be broken. I simply have a bad feeling about the Q change.

Darkdemon6531 votes

{quoted}

It does but remember that Nasus is typically pretty easy to walk away from and kite, so every Q counts.

With the % reduction, he will be allowed to hit the enemy frontline, almost completely eliminating his weakness of being kited.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

With the % reduction, he will be allowed to hit the enemy frontline, almost completely eliminating his weakness of being kited.

How does % armor reduction eliminate his weakness to kiting?

Darkdemon6531 votes

{quoted}

How does % armor reduction eliminate his weakness to kiting?

Because he'll be able to effectively kill the enemy frontline, and they're not ones who will try to kite a Nasus

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Because he'll be able to effectively kill the enemy frontline, and they're not ones who will try to kite a Nasus

While that's true, tanks aren't the only class that can kite Nasus with ease. And don't forget during that time, he will be taking significant damage.

Swiftstrike41 votes

Hate Daddy, I think the Q change's goal is to get him to sustain through damage via Qing. It might work, but it also might be overtuned.

I like the change, but I think it might be too strong and they will have to remove it or change it from 50% to maybe 25% or not at all.

I actually think with the tank item changes, he is being indirectly buffed. Thornmail and RO now being better buys I think he will be much stronger in longer games.

I would prefer they just buff his scaling health (it is one of the lowest, if not THE lowest for a juggernaut) along with the E change.

I disagree with your suggestion on the pre-mitigation damage. If anything just raise the % of his late game lifesteal.

I am still a big proponent of stacks awarding tenacity by the 100 count, but I think that is very unlikely to occur.

Notably, you build TF A LOT and I have come to the conclusion that the item is just too expensive to buy in tandem with FH and IBG is just the most cost-effective purchase for the mid game power spike. You might want to adjust your builds and try it. I mostly play Nasus as a mid game closer. I want to end the game in less than 30 minutes, preferably at 25 minutes. IBG IMO just leads to a quicker spike that is much more relevant than the late game power from TF.

TF is the better item for sure, but I think to win with Nasus you just can't afford to build it unless you want to burden your team for a few extra minutes while you scale.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Hate Daddy, I think the Q change's goal is to get him to sustain through damage via Qing. It might work, but it also might be overtuned.

You put a space in between my name. Nobody puts a space in between my name.

I understand the goal, but I think the reality will be different. Armor, even if 35% of it is shredded, will still reduce his lifesteals effectiveness pretty hard. I think pre-mitigation %healing is better as typically, Nasus won't get many Qs off anyway and that'll help him more. You could even put a cap on it every so often so he's not just drain tanking the front line indefinitely.

I like the change, but I think it might be too strong and they will have to remove it or change it from 50% to maybe 25% or not at all.

I think the change is ambitious and if it went through, I'd personally enjoy it for sure. I just fear of the direction it takes him in.

I actually think with the tank item changes, he is being indirectly buffed. Thornmail and RO now being better buys I think he will be much stronger in longer games.

Thornmail hurts him as much as it potentially helps him. Remember he relies on healing and he's going to be bashing on the guys with those pesky thornmails.

I would prefer they just buff his scaling health (it is one of the lowest, if not THE lowest for a juggernaut) along with the E change.

I think they steer away from this because of his ult. If anything, give his ult more HP maybe.

I disagree with your suggestion on the pre-mitigation damage. If anything just raise the % of his late game lifesteal.

Not pre-mitigation damage, pre-mitigation healing where his healing numbers apply before mitigation does so armor doesn't ruin his ability to lifesteal.

I am still a big proponent of stacks awarding tenacity by the 100 count, but I think that is very unlikely to occur.

It's an interesting concept, I'm not sure how you could implement it. I don't mind nasus' counterplay being of an idea that he must not be allowed to move but when that happens, he needs tools not to explode when it occurs.

Notably, you build TF A LOT and I have come to the conclusion that the item is just too expensive to buy in tandem with FH and IBG is just the most cost-effective purchase for the mid game power spike. You might want to adjust your builds and try it. I mostly play Nasus as a mid game closer. I want to end the game in less than 30 minutes, preferably at 25 minutes. IBG IMO just leads to a quicker spike that is much more relevant than the late game power from TF.

I like IBG, I really do. But it's a lot of gold into mana and while the early spike is nice, I find that a sheen suffices for that. I will build trinity then when I decided whether I want the additional MS/damage for split pushing or if I'm needed more as a front liner. If I'm needed as a front liner, I'll go tanky right away. As of late, I've had no interest in grouping because I've used Nasus more as a counterpick to certain champs and the enemy comps have just been a massive cockblock to me so I've avoided grouping.

TF is the better item for sure, but I think to win with Nasus you just can't afford to build it unless you want to burden your team for a few extra minutes while you scale.

Eh, I don't usually rush it unless I'm ahead or splitting. It scales better, but as you've noted, it comes at a cost.

Swiftstrike41 votes

{quoted}

You put a space in between my name. Nobody puts a space in between my name.

I understand the goal, but I think the reality will be different. Armor, even if 35% of it is shredded, will still reduce his lifesteals effectiveness pretty hard. I think pre-mitigation %healing is better as typically, Nasus won't get many Qs off anyway and that'll help him more. You could even put a cap on it every so often so he's not just drain tanking the front line indefinitely.

I think the change is ambitious and if it went through, I'd personally enjoy it for sure. I just fear of the direction it takes him in.

Thornmail hurts him as much as it potentially helps him. Remember he relies on healing and he's going to be bashing on the guys with those pesky thornmails.

I think they steer away from this because of his ult. If anything, give his ult more HP maybe.

Not pre-mitigation damage, pre-mitigation healing where his healing numbers apply before mitigation does so armor doesn't ruin his ability to lifesteal.

It's an interesting concept, I'm not sure how you could implement it. I don't mind nasus' counterplay being of an idea that he must not be allowed to move but when that happens, he needs tools not to explode when it occurs.

I like IBG, I really do. But it's a lot of gold into mana and while the early spike is nice, I find that a sheen suffices for that. I will build trinity then when I decided whether I want the additional MS/damage for split pushing or if I'm needed more as a front liner. If I'm needed as a front liner, I'll go tanky right away. As of late, I've had no interest in grouping because I've used Nasus more as a counterpick to certain champs and the enemy comps have just been a massive cockblock to me so I've avoided grouping.

Eh, I don't usually rush it unless I'm ahead or splitting. It scales better, but as you've noted, it comes at a cost.

I think the TM change really helps him because right now all I do is play against carries in the top lane that build Executioners early. So I guess Tanks getting it means they are investing resources into just countering me, when I think their itemization should not be focused on me. If anything I think if they build it early it is a miss-allocation of resources by them. Maybe it makes tanks a bit more dangerous, but more or less it will probably feel like the same thing as the carries getting EC. I prefer playing against carries simply because they are killable and Tanks usually are not killable after the mid game.

Isn't one of the new runes some type of overhealing shield similar to what you are proposing? I haven't paid much attention to runes reforged but I thought that one of them did this.

I also almost never group, but apparently my assist count is a lot higher than other Nasus players around my elo that I talk to (they sit at about 5 assists per game and I have 6 to 7). Even players in my ranked games (post game) comment how I help the team more than other Nasus players they have had on their team in the past.

I don't think I help the team too much. In fact my default mode is always to split and rarely group, but I guess I help more than the average Nasus viaing TP use.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

I think the TM change really helps him because right now all I do is play against carries in the top lane that build Executioners early. So I guess Tanks getting it means they are investing resources into just countering me, when I think their itemization should not be focused on me. If anything I think if they build it early it is a miss-allocation of resources by them. Maybe it makes tanks a bit more dangerous, but more or less it will probably feel like the same thing as the carries getting EC. I prefer playing against carries simply because they are killable and Tanks usually are not killable after the mid game.

Isn't one of the new runes some type of overhealing shield similar to what you are proposing? I haven't paid much attention to runes reforged but I thought that one of them did this.

I also almost never group, but apparently my assist count is a lot higher than other Nasus players around my elo that I talk to (they sit at about 5 assists per game and I have 6 to 7). Even players in my ranked games (post game) comment how I help the team more than other Nasus players they have had on their team in the past.

I don't think I help the team too much. In fact my default mode is always to split and rarely group, but I guess I help more than the average Nasus viaing TP use.

I'm not sure about the runes but that is something else to consider too since we're much closer to that change than most would like to admit. I believe this next patch will be worlds patch if I'm not mistaken. Just kind of puts into perspective how time flies.

Big Lincoln1 votes

yea I'm worried about his Q. I feel like he's going to have too big a powerspike at level 6 and he's gonna start shitting on people with the added deeps. If they insist on this route then I think it should be lowered at level 6 and only scale to 50 at third rank, to keep him from getting out of control too early in the game.

More healing would actually be pretty good but keep in mind, ignoring more armor on his E means he WILL have more healing when hitting tanky opponents than he does now. The new Q change might also open up for Black Cleaver on him because he'll get to stack it very quickly with the sheer amount of AA-Qs he'll be doing, which will indirectly boost his sustain

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3e4pHy0X,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-07-13T22:43:26.080+0000)

yea I'm worried about his Q. I feel like he's going to have too big a powerspike at level 6 and he's gonna start shitting on people with the added deeps. If they insist on this route then I think it should be lowered at level 6 and only scale to 50 at third rank, to keep him from getting out of control too early in the game.

More healing would actually be pretty good but keep in mind, ignoring more armor on his E means he WILL have more healing when hitting tanky opponents than he does now. The new Q change might also open up for Black Cleaver on him because he'll get to stack it very quickly with the sheer amount of AA-Qs he'll be doing, which will indirectly boost his sustain

holy fuck I didn't even think of BC

BC/IBG -> full tank. Holy shit he's going to be so busted.

Big Lincoln1 votes

you're welcome daddy

is it fine to spend money on excess CDR for visage in that situation?

HateDaddy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3e4pHy0X,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-07-13T22:54:22.447+0000)

you're welcome daddy

is it fine to spend money on excess CDR for visage in that situation?

I stopped caring about that shit a long time ago. I wake up and my toast has CDR in it.

Big Lincoln1 votes

lol

i went to the PBE to try it out. with BC and your E you'll get a total of 51% armor shred. i think taking some attack speed in runes might help to smooth out the AA canceling, it feels a little rough without it but maybe im just spoiled by triforce

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3e4pHy0X,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-14T00:08:36.511+0000)

lol

i went to the PBE to try it out. with BC and your E you'll get a total of 51% armor shred. i think taking some attack speed in runes might help to smooth out the AA canceling, it feels a little rough without it but maybe im just spoiled by triforce

I play Jax and Olaf, readjusting to various attack speeds shouldn't be too troubling

Ravenous Howls1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3e4pHy0X,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-07-13T22:43:26.080+0000)

yea I'm worried about his Q. I feel like he's going to have too big a powerspike at level 6 and he's gonna start shitting on people with the added deeps. If they insist on this route then I think it should be lowered at level 6 and only scale to 50 at third rank, to keep him from getting out of control too early in the game.

More healing would actually be pretty good but keep in mind, ignoring more armor on his E means he WILL have more healing when hitting tanky opponents than he does now. The new Q change might also open up for Black Cleaver on him because he'll get to stack it very quickly with the sheer amount of AA-Qs he'll be doing, which will indirectly boost his sustain

Nope. BC will only stack about .5 to 1 sec faster with the ult and it will not be effective to stack or itemize for on Nasus as nothing in his kit stacks it except AA's and Q. This change won't even make sheen better as the sheen proc does not cool down as fast as his Q will now. I think people are overthinking how good the Q change is. It will help get more DPS on a front line tank but not to the point of oppression.

Great Ozymandius1 votes

BC will be viable in certain matchups. Versus tanks, duels last a long time anyway so the longish time to stack is not a big problem.

LyingOnLine1 votes

I'm of the opinion that while the changes might improve his winrate (emphasis on the might), putting even more of his power budget into his ult is a bad idea.

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