So Malzahar is still being played in Proplay Riot!

Wukong Airlines·May 4, 2017·39 votes·2,969 views

Patch 7.11 W (Voice Swarm) : Passive: On every fourth ability use, Malzahar summons a Voidling that that lasts for 21 seconds or until killed. If Malzahar dies, the Voidling stays behind but stops attacking.

You can clearly see Malza is still a high ban/pick as a support and doens't matter how much you nerf his W and overall damage because he'll always be viable because of his point click R mostly.

His voidlings are annoying, but they're not the issue that allows malza to support even with his low base damage on ALL of his spells. You gave him a passive which you've already nerfed to fourth of it's old duration. Q? damage nerfed. W? Nerf E? nerf R? what is damage?

The whole rework turned malza from a perfectly Assassin counter with lots of counterplay to a pain in the ass damageless lock mage.

53 Comments

A Bad NasusMay 5, 201712 votes

I love how people say malzahar lacks counterplay when item 3140 exists, an item that made old malz's combo utterly useless. Not to mention how his effectiveness falls off like a brick past laning phase.

Do people not realize how easy it was to interrupt his ultimate even without qss? He literally stuns himself in place unable to move giving the enemy enough time to react since he can't reposition himself.

People seem to be misinformed as to why he is being picked in the lcs. It isn't just because of his ultimate. It isn't just because of his passive change.

Nor is it just because of those damn voidlings. The entire rework made it so he just functions better as a support. You are literally wasting his potential now by going malzahar mid.

His damage was severely nerfed across the board, voidlings are easy to kill now with just 2 autos, and they even instadie from aoe. He doesn't lose effectiveness because he doesn't have to commit or put himself in as much danger anymore thanks to voidlings for the low cost of 40 mana lol.

While also being safer doing it to thanks to void shift. Oh and he has an adc to help him kill said person since his solo kill potential is laughable.

Not to mention his ultimate is still as reliable as ever, a boon in high elo.

A boon that is sitting at a 47% winrate.

Oh, but why can't malza go mid now? Well his hardpushing waveclear was taken out because its binary meanwhile viktor e exists. Even fucking leblanc has better waveclear than malz now lol. Did I mention his solo kill potential? Yea maybe mid-late it'll start kicking in.

To those of you who think old malz will still be played as a support I invite you to google old malzahar's mana costs. He still had a shitty starting mana pool back then as well. But mana return on his e allowed him to lane, if he used his spells just to harass he would be out of mana real fast.

Not to mention going against these guys back then? Thresh Blitzcrank Leona Yea good luck.

Old malzahar had one recent nerf since his entire release on his null zone while the rest were mainly bugfixes, mana cost buffs (lol), and range changes.

From patch 5.24

"Malzahar’s been sleeping just below the surface of too powerful for a long time, only just recently breaking through the top of Strong Mountain. Instead of taking away from his signature lane control (very funny riot) and single-target lockdown, we’re opting to chip away at his unintended strengths, targeting incidental area damage instead. "

W - Null Zone

DAMAGE: ~~4/5/6/7/8%~~ of target's maximum health ⇒ 4/4.5/5/5.5/6% of target's maximum health

Doesn't that tell you something about how "healthy" this rendition of malz is compared to the old one.

You may not like malzahar, you may hate malzahar, but this isn't the way to rework malzahar.

Sir FuzziMay 5, 201713 votes

Hold on, hold on...

You mean the... wait, hold on, I need to clear my head.

So you're basically telling me, the guy who has a suppress and a silence and summons is a BAD target to try and take on alone...?

Hrm...

zlumpyMay 5, 20176 votes

Better send more assassins at him by themselves. That should solve it.

Sir FuzziMay 5, 20173 votes

You need to make sure you don't have mobility he can CC you out of, and you especially need to burn your QSS on his silence because you need skillz to make killz.

zlumpyMay 5, 20172 votes

Better activate your spell shield item early as well so he can Q cancel it as well.

Sir FuzziMay 5, 20172 votes

How in the hell am I supposed to build 4 crit items, boots and a bloodthirster if I have to get all your crummy, liberal "Magic" "Resist" items?!

Ariel the CruelMay 5, 20171 votes

Sivir Yo.

Sir FuzziMay 5, 20171 votes

Wow, she doesn't even have a gun or anything. Why would I play a lame champ like that? xD

~~reserving myself a special place in hell, yup~~

edit: actually, isn't Sivir quite popular lately?

Ariel the CruelMay 5, 20171 votes

I haven't been around for the last week or two. So..... maybe?

Votable JesterMay 5, 20172 votes

Technically QSS is countbuild not play.

XIII VanitasMay 5, 20171 votes

Items are not counterplays.

The Great DivideMay 5, 20171 votes

His effectiveness didn't fall off that hard after laning phase. It was just much harder to use him effectively, which was part of the fun of playing him :)

Now I can only look on his current kit and weep

SpoofghoulMay 5, 20171 votes

Well who wants to rush item 3140 before they hit 6 anyway

Sure there is counterplay

But hes sitting around in botlane waiting for the jungler to come help aaaaand FREE KILLS AND FB TOWERRRRR

Though technically you could do that before as well

Voidlings are still anal to deal with though especially after rylais buy then he can permaslow you and minionblock you with voidlings . . . Yes you can minion block people. . .

And that is all the utility he needs permaslows silnces minionblocks and occasionally press R

And now you can actually get items as support so it's just a matter of stacking up the most broken sup items + sightstone + rylais Bring tons of lockdown and utility

And thats all a support has to do really

Hes just an offensive janna of sorts now

YokoNomiMay 4, 20175 votes

Hasn't this been the case for awhile? Every additional nerf just feels like a numbing throb to an already obviously gashing wound. In the end, all that can be done is to just let it fester and die, since the treatment can't be given, apparently.

Wukong AirlinesMay 4, 20174 votes

He'll always be played in Proplay because of his easy Lock, Voids peel and damage absorbing passive. So nerfing his damage will never change the outcome.

YokoNomiMay 4, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shaykh al Jabal,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3ZbYlf4l,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-05-04T19:54:01.993+0000)

He'll always be played in Proplay because of his easy Lock, Voids peel and damage absorbing passive. So nerfing his damage will never change the outcome.

Except there will be a tipping point that can't be avoided. Regardless of how "good" he may appear to be, what he's turning into will make him useless as an actual champion, since the only thing that'll define him is what every other champion can do better, and more.

JbelsMay 4, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Except there will be a tipping point that can't be avoided. Regardless of how "good" he may appear to be, what he's turning into will make him useless as an actual champion, since the only thing that'll define him is what every other champion can do better, and more.

But this doesn't fix the problem, it highlights another one: The live balance team are idiots. This is what they always do. They nerf parts of a champion to compensate for what makes the champion broken instead of...I don't know...nerfing what makes the champion broken? This goes on and on until they have absolutely no choice but to nerf what the problem ACTUALLY is. But then they leave all of the other nerfs, so the champion is just useless. It's fucking stupid

YokoNomiMay 4, 20172 votes

{quoted}

But this doesn't fix the problem, it highlights another one: The live balance team are idiots. This is what they always do. They nerf parts of a champion to compensate for what makes the champion broken instead of...I don't know...nerfing what makes the champion broken? This goes on and on until they have absolutely no choice but to nerf what the problem ACTUALLY is. But then they leave all of the other nerfs, so the champion is just useless. It's fucking stupid

I never suggested a fix for the problem. My point is that unless they actually do something to fix him, he's going to eventually cease to exist as a champion, and risk potentially being tossed.

warpenguin555May 4, 20175 votes

Patch 7.11 W (Voice Swarm) : Passive: On every fourth ability use, Malzahar summons a Voidling that that lasts for 21 seconds or until killed. If Malzahar dies, the Voidling stays behind but stops attacking.

Is this legit what they are doing? And if so where did you find this

Beacon AcademyMay 5, 20173 votes

I think he was trying to prove a point but ye...

I saw that and I was furious till I didn't see it on Surrender@20

deadlychuckMay 5, 20171 votes

Furious? About what? Reverting his voidlings?

Beacon AcademyMay 5, 20171 votes

It still says W even if its a passive W (Kinda like Vayne's silver bolts or w/e).
If it was a passive W, requiring four spells from the other three that he has wouldn't let him have a Voidling even with a full rotation.
It said nothing about evolving despite being able to live for 21 seconds.
If the Voidling just stands still after Malzahar's death, that is just free gold.
This would have been a super lazy way to try and fix his W on top of whatever they already did.

Top of my head. I'm sure I could think of other shit if I tried.

Beacon AcademyMay 5, 20171 votes

Speaking of which:

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2017/05/55-pbe-update.html#balance

Malzahar [Changelist] Voidlings {lots!} Void Swarm (W) {reworked} Mana Cost: 40/45/50/55/60 Cooldown: 8 Range: ~150

Passive: Casting Malzahar's other spells gives him Gathering Swarm, increasing the number of Voidlings summoned by Void Swarm (max 2).

Active: Summons one or more Voidlings. Voidlings last 8/8/9/9/10 seconds and deal an additional 12/14/16/18/20 (+20% AP) (+40% AD) magic damage each hit.

Voidlings deal 300% damage to lane minions. Voidlings deal 50% damage to epic monsters.

From the sound of it...

You can summon more than one Voidling at a time.

However.

It doesn't look like they multiply.

Which means...

Voidlings numbers are now stuck to two max.

If the Voidlings still have 2 hp, ima laugh hysterically.

Ima go update my pbe now and see if its there lol

Edit: Oh more changes below in context... Lets see...

So it might be the summon + 2 W stacks for three Voidlings

However.

Individual Voidling damage lowered

Armor/MR early game where they matter... lowered

Movement speed... large decrease with no bonus movement speed from any source

Towers and champion basic attacks kill Voidlings regardless of health

This was the solution...???

deadlychuckMay 6, 20172 votes

Well the removal of the shitty health system is a step in the right direction. It alone backed riot into a corner where they couldn't actually fix anything.

However, there is one seriously stupid decision which might potentially be removed (if they no longer multiply)

Towers and champion basic attacks kill Voidlings regardless of health

If they remove this and remove the multiplying (aka swarm) aspect of the ability i think it will be fine. It's basically an on demand version of the old passive, but without compensation buffs, there is almost no way this will benefit mid lane malz. It's like they've forgotten that mid lane doesn't exclusively have spells. They can still auto attack to instantly kill the voidlings, effectively nerfing him in all regards... again...

NineTailedMysticMay 4, 20173 votes

The whole rework turned malza from a perfectly Assassin counter _with lots of counterplay_to a pain in the ass damageless lock mage.

Lol? I don't think a combo that's almost entirely point/click that forced a QSS buy on every carry was "lots of counterplay".

Voluug13May 4, 20176 votes

Zero mobility no sustain champion that needs to set up a very interruptable combo low range whose only strength was to punish melee assassins since everyone else outranges him or tanks his combo. Oh, and said combo is completly useless against more that one person.

Point and click is only one of the few upsides to a very conditional combo that falls off like bricks outside of lane.

NineTailedMysticMay 4, 20172 votes

I think you're underselling it a little, considering said point and click combo was the main reason he was played and played frequently in solo Q and sometimes in pro play. And was also the reason why he got reworked considering he'd just dump his combo on you with nothing you could do about it. If you could perfectly predict when he'd use R you could throw a CC with travel time to interrupt it yourself but that's really it outside of a QSS purchase.

I'm not saying he was OP or anything, but to say tons of counterplay isn't right.

AnidanMay 4, 20174 votes

I don't know about frequently.. as I recall, his pickrate wasn't stellar in solo queue. He was a pubstomper, but he wasn't a common one. He wasn't particularly rare, but not frequent either.

As someone who likes pre-rework Malzahar, I absolutely agree that he didn't have tons of counterplay. There's a reason I picked him and it wasn't because of the freedom he gave the enemies to stop him. There were ways to beat him, certainly, but unless BKB had been brought to League then by no means was his counterplay abundant.

Voluug13May 5, 20172 votes

item 3140 is your BKB. With actual stats.

AnidanMay 5, 20172 votes

That... that is not even close to comparable to BKB. That's a single strong dispel effect on demand, in DotA terms. I can get what that item does by an Abaddon using his Aphotic Shield on me, or a Legion Commander using her Attack Speed steroid on me, but those aren't BKB, either.

BKB does more than just make you immune to CC over its duration, it also makes you immune to most spell effects. QSS just has some resistance, not immunity.

Voluug13May 5, 20172 votes

Which is all you need against Malz because he has 1 CC.

Beacon AcademyMay 5, 20171 votes

QSS didn't stop the 550 + 130% ap flat damage though

Only the suppress... Which is why it always gave me a chuckle when I see people buy it pre-rework.

Voluug13May 5, 20174 votes

He wasnt used in proplay AT ALL because his weaknesses ourweighted his advantages (and that was FINE, because not every hero should be LCS material and then be nerfed just for a short time of glory), and his soloqueue pickrate was on the 2-3%.

And his combo, the thing that many fear, had minimal range for midlane, and the nature of his silence didnt allow flash-combo initiations. Not to mention it was exclusively a 1v1 thing because the smallest of CCs could cancel it, or even easier, QSS. His combo wasnt ''the reason'' why he was played, he was played by his mains and basically no one else. His conditional, anti assassin combo was what gave him a niche and at the same time allowed him to be strong, because of its conditionals and being basically counterpick specific.

And tbh? Riot reworked him in complete ignorance of his playstyle (lmao @ ''he is a flash assassin'' I have never heard anything more ignorant of Malz in my life) with no intent other that change for the sake of fucking change, and now Malz is one of the most nerfed champions EVER because his reworked kit actually managed to increase everything that it was supposed to diminish, and increased his weakness to QSS, while making him be what Riot pretended he actually was.

The rework:

Lowered his skillfloor massively. Faster Q, lower mana costs, actually non-interactive, izi farm lane (which pre-rework wasnt posible without early AP rush and/or at rank 4 E), decreased his need for positionement exponentially and his sustain weakness with the same change, the shield.
Took away damage, and what was left, was put in a completly non-interactive spell, that also had way more effective range that . Q was an skillshot, E was balanced around its lack of range, and his R was balanced around being a channel, rooting Malz, and its shitty range.
Gutted his anti assassin niche, which no, is NOT ''survives assassins'', it was ''try to dive me you zed bitch and you die''.
Made his minions on-demand, where before he needed to dump several spells to get one.
Took away the capacity of using his anti-tank W damage, which with LiandRylai was actually extremely strong midgame onwards.

The rework is easily on par with Karma's on the level of how idiotical, ignorant and blabantly misinformed it was. Or intentionally wanted to break/deletework a champion some rioter didnt like. Whatever the case is, the meme that is '' uwu old malz was just as bad uwu'' is just that, a meme born from riot bandwagoning and assassin tears.

Voluug13May 4, 20173 votes

The real problem is that he is an ult bot that forces QSS, and is even more useless against QSS that before. His damage was nerfed, and what remained was relocated into an actually no interaction ability that used to be a mere bonus.

At this point, a full revert instead of marching on or making a re-rework of a fundamentally flawed kit (the reworked one) is literally the only thing to make Malz even usable aside a one trick pony in support.

A later rework based on the spirit and numbersof his OLD kit is what Malz needs, one that keeps his destroyer of assassins niche, instead of pandering to the assassin/mobility circlejerk like the rework we got aimed to.

LadyRenlyMay 4, 20173 votes

"You can clearly see Malza is still a high ban/pick as a support and doens't matter how much you nerf his W and overall damage because he'll always be viable because of his point click R mostly."

So basically a more useless Naut support?

FaustavianMay 4, 20172 votes

Pshht, he has range Range to use those 60 AD auto's for some SERIOUS level one bullying.

~~Then he's just useless until level 6~~

EDIT** /s

Mataka TekMay 4, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Pshht, he has range Range to use those 83 AD auto's for some SERIOUS level one bullying.

~~Then he's just useless until level 6~~

I hope that is sarcasm.

His range is 500 now. And AD Malzahar is a joke, especially since the one use it had (voidlings) no longer have frenzy, and die with 2 hits of ANY KIND.

FaustavianMay 4, 20171 votes

I really should put that /s in there though just in case, shouldn't I?

morris1May 5, 20171 votes

Wow... I had no idea they removed the voidling frenzy. Well, that's definitely where a huge part of his damage went.

AnidanMay 4, 20174 votes

not necessarily more useless because the suppression of Malz's R is instant, as opposed to Nautilus's having to travel. This can actually make a very big difference in pro play because any sort of travel time means the targeted victim has time to reposition themselves. They don't get that mercy with Malzahar.

SnowplosionMay 4, 20173 votes

Eh, at this point they might of well revert instead of nerf him. Well, at least if they think that's what will fix him.

Mataka TekMay 5, 20173 votes

The point is... that any enemy mid lane champ the likes of Zed, Ahri, Talon, Fizz, Akali, Yasuo can burst down a Malzahar easily. Malzhar's ONLY trick is to ult them under tower when they dive.

If the Enemy has QSS, they activate, kill Malz, and walk free.

EVERYONE in the higher ELO's knows this.

Mataka TekMay 5, 20172 votes

Re: Not Allowing Flash Ult... That's like saying you can't use the standard maneuvers to perform an attack. Annie Flash Ult's all the time. Tell you what, disable everyone's AA and spell casting for 1 second after a flash, and I am ok with it. Otherwise, the idea is very one sided and picks only on Malzahar. My recommendation is to leave the flash mechanic alone.

The real fix for Malzahar is a 3 step approach:

Change his W so that it casts a Pre-Rework Null Zone. From the Center of the Null Zone, ONE voidling spawns with frenzy potential and HP. This voidling ONLY multiplies for Jg Camps and Monsters (NOT Champions). THIS change addressed the concerns that the support lanes have with too many voidlings. And it allows Malzahar to Jg again. It brings back the damage that was taken away by bringing back the null zone.

Change E: to add "True Vision" to anything affected by Malefic Visions. (Which makes sense, and addresses the problem where an enemy champ afflicted with visions can run into a bush and the voidlings become suddenly stupid).

R: Nether Grasp, IF it is interrupted by anything (CC, QSS etc), the suppress converts to a slow for the duration of the ult. This allows Malzahar to at least have SOME CC on his ult target, and not lose all the damage when he gets interrupted. (Which is the single most important reason why he does not see Pro-play).

Lastly, Change his passive so that the cc block is back to 0.5sec.

lightdragoon88May 4, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shaykh al Jabal,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3ZbYlf4l,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-05-04T19:49:32.037+0000)

Patch 7.11 W (Voice Swarm) : Passive: On every fourth ability use, Malzahar summons a Voidling that that lasts for 21 seconds or until killed. If Malzahar dies, the Voidling stays behind but stops attacking.

Where is this?

Wukong AirlinesMay 4, 20173 votes

Sarcasm.

That's his old Passive.

lightdragoon88May 4, 20173 votes

Probably should of had like.../sarcasm or something at the end of that.

starting off with patch 7.11 made me think I missed some PBE notes.

deadlychuckMay 4, 20171 votes

If you don't know that's his old passive then... well i really don't have an appropriate insult, so just know that I'm disappointed.

lightdragoon88May 4, 20171 votes

I know his old passive, I main pre-reworked Malz.

I am saying that his opening...I could see Riot doing because they have been screwing Malzahar so much.

Mataka TekMay 4, 20171 votes

The whole point of QSS was that it was supposed to be a way to escape QWE CC.

Enemy champs easily recycle QWE CC and could try again quickly... QSS was supposed to be that 1 time in an emergency escape.

QSS on Malzahar is game breaking. It totally ruins his ult. And destroys his ability to play in Pro-Play.

Additionally, there is no real downside to QSS since it builds in Mercurial Scimitar which has massive AD just like ALL THE OTHER AD ITEMS. It has NO downside.

And now with things Like AP Banshee Veil and AD Guardian Angel, there's no downside for everyone to have these items.

The stupid part is that Riot does not seem to understand that resurrection on an AD champ is much better than blocking 1 spell on an AP champ. AD champs dish out HUGE DAMAGE per AUTO... AP champs dish out HUGE DAMAGE per Ultimate.

O. wait. Thats like NNN times more damage per second for AD over AP in the late game. So, yea, Malzahar ults down the AD champ, and the AD champ hits QSS. Nevertheless somehow manages to "Kill" the champ just before dying and oops NM... GA clicks in...

So it does not matter how Malzahar's ult works... it is easily negated. And since he has no other form of CC, when the GA kicks in... worth 50% HP, Malz is dead.

QSS ruins it for Malzahar.

What they need to do to fix this, is change Nether Grasp so that if it is interrupted by CC or QSS etc... it converts to a slow for the remainder of the ult. Thus damage is maintained. RIght now, Malzahar's ult is useless with all the CC/QSS he has to contend with.

His shield was supposed to help with that but they reduced the CC protection to .25 secs which is useless for the ultimate.

NineTailedMysticMay 4, 20175 votes

Additionally, there is no real downside to QSS since it builds in Mercurial Scimitar which has massive AD just like ALL THE OTHER AD ITEMS. It has NO downside.

When he forces APs to build it.

What they need to do to fix this, is change Nether Grasp so that if it is interrupted by CC or QSS etc... it converts to a slow for the remainder of the ult. Thus damage is maintained.

His R currently does 0 damage by itself. He makes his old W when he uses his R which is where the damage comes from.